Re: What if…
Peace obaid1982
What makes RasoolAllah (SAW) greatest is that he had the best character, the best Ummah, he is given maqam e Mahmoud on Day of Judgement and he gives Shiffat al Uzdma … And many other things …
This personal idea of Isa (AS) in heaven and Sayyidinua (SAW) buried is an emotional and baseless argument. Do not judge the ways of Allah (SWT) but adhere to what is written and authenticated.
Re: What if…
Peace Mr.Popat
All we do is stick to the majority from the Ummah … We do not follow in to dead ends by clutching on to sects … Remember … You are from a sect that split away … Not us. You do not cite nearly enough references from the ulema of the past that came between RasoolaAllah (SAW) and MGA … This shows that there is a huge chasm in your tradition it is disconnected from the chain of scholars.
Re: What if…
I would like to share this little information for those who are interested in finding what went on in pakistan assembly in 1974. This is original scanned images of declassified information. Part of discussion relate to questions and answers relevant to topic at hand. So do read those parts.
I request muslim posters to read this dua for shukar of being in eeman and for understanding haq.
اللهُمَّ أَرِنَا الحَقَّ حَقّاً وَارْزُقْنَا التِبَاعَةَ وَأَرِنَا البَاطِلَ بَاطِلاً وَارْزُقْنَا اجْتِنَابَهُ، بِرَحْمَتِكَ يَا أَرْحَمَ الرَّاحِمِينَ
Allahumma arinal-haqqa haqqan warzuqnat-tiba’ah, wa arinal-batila batilan warzuqnaj-tinabah, bi rahmatika ya arhamar-rahimeen.
O Allah! Let us see the good as good, and bless us with following it. And show us the falsehood as falsehood, and bless us with staying away from it, with Your mercy, O Most Merciful!
Re: What if…
A bit more of a pragmatic response …
We are instructed by the prophet Muhammad (SAW) to stick to the majority … so we do …
We know that Al-Mahdi will unify us … that will be one of his signs - in hindsight …
Let’s assume that the majority are wrong … very wrong … that should not matter because RasoolAllah (SAW) has told us to stick to the majority and we will be rewarded for that and until we know otherwise we should continue sticking to the majority.
Now if a candidate for Al-Mahdi comes along - he should unify us … if he fails to do that - then the reverse effect will happen - he will actually end up breaking us apart …
If it turns out Al-Mahdi arrives it is his job and tawfeeq from Allah (SWT) to unify us and bend us back in a direction that is correct if it turns out that we have drifted away … but until then we only have one measure and that is to stay together …
Think of a flock of sheep … the sheep have strayed from the pen … but as long as the sheep stay together getting back is easy … but if a few sheep stray away further than those that have strayed as a group the likelihood is that only the majority will be rescued to the pen and some others will be lost forever …
So far all claimants of Al-Mahdi have caused further divides in the Ummah - they have not unified us - alas - rather we become unified against those claimants …
Re: What if…
You call our ummah best when we need someone from outside our ummah to come rescue us. Muhammad PBUH is the greatest because his ummah is the greatest.. the reason why its the greatest is that it has been given the glad tiding of anyone who obey Allah and the messenger will be given 4 rewards. Sidique, Shaheed, Saleheen, and Nabiyeen. Our religion does not allow and does not give any room for any prior prophet to come in our ummah to rescue us. Muhammad PBUH alone is the rehmatul lil alameen.. all other prophets were sent to their own people and had a limited teaching.
How does sticking to majority help you? Read what Quran says :
It’s only just ignorance from Quran. If we read Quran we understand that the mankind has always been one community.. though they differed among themselves, but they r still called one ummah.. it is then when Allah raise a prophet.. does that mean all the majority of people accept him ? absolutely not! So, its just to give your mind a false satisfaction that no matter what, majority will always be right.. Holy prophet says.. they will all be hell bound! Allah is Ar-Raheem. He says that we were in the edge of a cliff and HE saved you ! HOW? by sending a prophet.. and through him, we became brothers. Kindly do not make up your own mumbo jumbo.. and reflect upon Quran and its teachings. It is very much possible that majority had to go wrong for Allah to send Messiah to guide them back to pure deen.. and ofcourse, whoever accepts him will be called a jamaat.. and the rest are hell bound ( Allah knows best if it means hell on Earth , since we have been seen muslim ummah having reverse gear.. fitnas start from within them and ends within them.. or Allah knows if He meant hell after life ).
Our jamaat did not split away. You say whatever you feel like.. I can’t stop you on that.. but rest assured, this is what always happens.. when the prophet comes, whoever accept him becomes an even better momin of that deen and create a jamaat who follows him… this does not make one out of islam.. that is your misunderstanding. Musvi shariya saw many many prophets between Musa a.s and Jesus a.s, and yet whoever kept accepting them remained a Jew.
This is deemed to happen even in your own aqeedah. You will always have opponents.. bitter opponents.. and the bitter the opponents, the more success Allah gives to his chosen one.
I do not see you or a person like ibn sadique who can modify their beliefs if Messiah tells them. You will call him heretics too because he will not be fitted according to your own version of Islam.
And Allah knows best.
Re: What if…
Ibn Sadique,
what ‘criteria’ will Isa a.s follow ?
if he will follow what you have been following, then theres no need for him to tell you anything. Many people will reject him. You already know the stuff he will tell you.
if he claims to be a Muslim and yet teaches you the wisdom of Quran, which are not in conformity with Mullahs, even then you will reject him.
You need to losen up the pride that every single thing u have been believing is 100% true. Only then I see some light of you accepting Jesus.. or guess what? you will reject him plain and simple.
Fear Allah. If you cant do good to others, try not to do bad either. If your heart is sealed to accept God’s sent prophet, the messiah Hz Ahmad(as), be fearful enough to not say anything against Him or His jamaat. It will be in your favor. JazakAllah.
Re: What if…
One thing Mr Popat, this is what you assume will happen.We can discuss this assumption later, why not just discuss the issue at hand, Was MGA the Mehdi every one is waiting for?what MGA achieved, look you need to shows us true character of MGA and respond to our basic queries like why he apparently lied or made abusive remarks waghaira waghaira that stops us for accepting any thing from him. Lets just establish his credibility then you can always discuss other issues.
I can assume that you believe MGA as some one dependable so you believe in his intrepretations(regardless of how different it were from whole ummah) and we dont believe him rather we believe that our aqeedah remained consistent throughout these 1500 so years. We have chain of ahadith till our beloved 
and we have sawad e azam(majority of ummat) with us.
These issues i believe are some thing that should be discussed rather then some perceived events that can never unite us due to element of difference in perception.
One last request, just make niyyat that you will discuss these issues with respected brothers Ibn Saddique and Psyah with the desire to find haq and not to prove your point.
EDIT: Due to nature of our differences one thing is sure , only one of these groups will get ticket in jannat, so lets pray that we all book this ticket
Re: What if…
Ameen.
Re: What if…
What a strange thing to say to me … When the person you follow considered himself greater than RasoolAllah (SAW) or an incarnation of him (SAW) and many others besides … Lip service that is all you pay to the idea of the greatness of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) …
talk about cart before horse … 
… Dude! We were instructed to stick to the majority … Why on Earth are you looking for past accounts? That is a pointless exercise … For those nations were not told to stick together.
there was no prophet that came after Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) … And our scriptures say there won’t be any new ones coming … It warns us about the type of people you are following … Unlike previous scriptures to previous people, except with Isa (AS) -he specifically warned us people will come either to be from him or pretend to be him … They rejected the anbiya out of their own arrogance, we reject MGA because we humbly think he does not qualify and our scriptures warn us of charlatans coming … Our example is not the same as that of the Jews.
Re: What if…
Peace Mr.Popat
Listen to us good … Many people will NOT reject Mahdi … That is your fantasy … Read the ahadith about how the Mahdi will unify us … He cannot unify and at the same time many people will reject him … Look in MGA’s case … He did not unify us and many people rejected him … Now show us in the prophecies of Al-Mahdi that he will be rejected by a Muslim majority … Instead you raise the argument of age old civilisations who rejected their own prophet, but you fail to show any applicability of that to Al-Mahdi … Come on consider it a challenge.
Re: What if…
Even the most staunch enemies of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) were forced to speak of his contribution to islam. The manner in which Mirza sahib confronted the influx of christianity into subcontinent had no match. Dont take my words for it, listen to it from Dr Israr Ahmad (a very outspoken enemy of ahmadiyyat):
Dr Israr Ahmad Speaking Truth About Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani A.flv - YouTube
Its a stupid argument to say that since majority of muslims believe in something, they must be right. Religion is not a practice ground for democracy. Whenever a prophet comes, he is always in minority.
By the way, nobody answered why a prophet that was sent to Bani Israel would be re-sent to guide muslim ummah.
Re: What if…
psyah, Its not your fault. To be praised by others is what your heart is used to now. You cannot accept anything that goes against your beliefs.
Do you think we are really stupid enough that we need people like you to tell us what our belief is? When I say Muhammad PBUH is the greatest of all prophets, we do mean it.. we are not stupid enough to ask you if thats true or not in accordance to our beliefs. I have answers to what Hz Ahmad(as) has said and has not said.. but this is not the right platform to talk about what he said. But one thing is this.. you under value the greatness of Muhammad PBUH and the legacy he left behind when you keep a prophet prior to him who was limited to one nation and believe he will come back for Muslims. This is absurd ! How much can you people stop us from preaching the true Islam? You cannot stop the true Islam from spreading. It is aught to happen.
lol.. isnt it ironic ? People like you dont even care whats written in Quran.. because you have made up a belief and now you cant even see what Quran and its teachings tells us. Buddy! its always ONE ummah when Allah sends a prophet..(2:213) whoever accepts him makes a jamaat of true believers. What is it that you dont understand ? you and your pride of being with the majority is and will be the reason of rejecting God’s sent prophet. Musvi shariya had many prophets in them.. did they become someone other than jew ? C’monnn dude ! Our ummah dividing in 73 sects.. all hell bound.. 1 on true path.. then Allah says he sends prophet when ummah as a whole is going to the wrong path.. whoever accepts the prophet makes a jamaat and majority always goes against them.
Fear Allah for goodness sake !
Your scripture says no new prophet will come ? so an old one can ?? Lets not play around, alright? Jesus a.s is dead and we’ve talked about it lots of times. All that you talk about that it warns us about the type of people we follow .. is just plain playing around with people’s emotions. Have no never thought even for a second that its the pride in you that you cannot let go of what you believe.. We are also told that when Mahdi comes, we are told to do bait on his hand and help him and pay Muhammad PBUH’s salam to Him. We did what we were told. On the other hand, there have always been people like you who are on the other side of the spectrum. All prophets have had bitter opponents and opposition…that’s not something new.
Your example is exactly that of the jews whether you accept it or not. Why dont you pick up Quran and make a list of what Jews have been doing and what you people are doing these days? If thats hard for you.. i will be happy enough to make a new thread and show you with proof how exactly comparable you are to the Jews.
Re: What if…
We believe Allah raised a prophet from among us who has been given the title of Mahdi and Messiah. And we dont just believe this out of a blue. Since we say we are Muslims, we do provide evidence from Quran and ahadith to prove that what we believe is not something that Islam does not teach. We have the evidence that we put forth.. and to which since people don’t have answers of.. they ban our books.. they ban us from preaching.. its the sign of being frightful.. this is how we see it.
As far as the credibility of Hz Ahmad(as) is concerned, I have said this many many times before.. and ill say this again. I can very calmly talk to you about him, His character, His teachings, His claims etc… but why dont we first settle the issue or the position to which he is sitting. Until and unless that issue is not settled, how does it matter how pious Hz Ahmad(as) was ?
If you keep failing grade 5, you will be kept in grade 5. You cant ask the school to upgrade you if you keep failing it. Similarly, if you pass first step, only then can I go ahead and teach you grade 6. But if you keep denying the fact that theres no possibility of prophethood.. then really.. i need to teach you that first and then the next grade would be to tell you how he is the prophet. I hope that make sense.
I guarantee you, no one can deny the evidences and the interpretation we put forth of Quran and ahadith. The end result always has been criticizing my jamaat.. I have been here for a very long time, talking to you people about prophethood and the death of Jesus A.S. I havent come across any answer on these issues that could satisfy me. My standard is Quran and ahadith. You bring me evidence and I will be with you.. but till then.. no one can stop the progress of Jamaat e Ahmadiyya.
Re: What if…
As I have explained in my other posts, quran is a perfect message from God.
People are born ignorant and need time and education to reach level of knowledge that is needed to understand the quranic text.
People who claim to be muslim are not top in league of learned people.
So it is no wonder that people are arguing over the message of the quran endlessly without any sense of real basis.
The quran is A book of divine program for mankind. It is a book of divine constitution and law for guidance and regulation of human community. How many people have real sense of law and why it should be supreme and must prevail?
So I think we need to spend a lot of time and energy in trying to understand the quran properly. All arguments will end when we know ourselves what we are talking about because once we educate ourselves a lot of questions will become answered all by this process.
For understanding the quran people should learn about arabic as to why it is in a unique position as a language. How do you decide concrete meanings of its roots and what is the origin of roots that form words in arabic.
The quran is not a book with list of make beliefs but a book that deals with real world realities. It invites people to examine it for its claims and evidences it offers and invites people to put it to test for what it claims to be or claims the result will be if you acted upon its advice. A perfectly sensible book if one has sense oneself. It takes a knowledgeable person to recognise wisdom in the quran.
So my advice for people is get wise to the level that is needed for understanding the message in the quran because senselessly arguing over things will not lead to proper conclusions.
Only and only text of the quran is word of God not any explanations of it by anyone. They are human works by individuals on the quranic text for their own reasons so if they fit the text here and there they are fine but if they do not the people have made error in trying to explain the quran. All statements are to be judged by same rules whereby we ought to judge the quranic text itself.
Re: What if…
Bhai if you are not interested in reading the answers then it is not our fault.
We request you to interpret quran and hadith like sahabah and earlier scholars did, if you are deviating from the established aqeedah then you should have a self check first.
look Mr popat, what best we can achieve after days of discussion on your aqaidh? maximum that Hadrat essa alihaysallam is no more alive, there will be a new prophet(under whatever defination) but the main point that MGAQ was mehdi or not that we are now discussing here will remain unanswered.
Through my experiance in discussing aqeedah of this group i am certain that the shortest way to know what is haq is through establishment of credibility of MGAQ.
See , what is more better route, collecting samples of water and sending them to lab waiting for weeks and getting results that the water is not healthy to drink or by just visiting the water source that is right in front of you to see how much filth is in there. 
Just check the declassified information that i shared for 1974 assembly session on the issue.
Bhai your standard is quran o hadith do not mean that you follow quran and hadith. we believe that your intrepretation of quran and hadith do not corelate with the intrepretation of ijmah of ummat from 1500 years. This has been proved at this very forum so many times.
Haq is evident from the posts of respected brothers Ibn Saddique and Psyah, all you have to do is not to let your biases stop you from accepting haq.
Re: What if…
Oh you can discuss this with me any time obaid, did you read those books written by MGAQ for arya samaj or for chrsitians? i think not. Do read the tone and lanuguage of those books, look at the timing of printing of those books and the sudden rise of derogatory books against islam. This is not the topic of discussion here, if you need proofs just open another thread.
Should i share some gems of those books here? *haan tau kaho *
Re: What if…
In islam rules of wisdom are standard whereby we must judge the quran and hadis and fiwqh and all people. Even the prophet was accepted prophet because he put forth the quran as evidence of his prophethood. Moreover the quran itself is a rule book. Everything is about organisation and doing things in ways that make sense and benefit ie work.
This is why in islam there is no question of majority or minority but of being according to standard or not being according to standard.
If people cannot show the validity of rules or have no understanding of rules, they are all wrong in arguing over an issue. It is waste of time and effort. imagine if in courts of law people argued their cases without keeping themselves within set rules or guidelines.
The problem is if we play the game by rules then we have to give up our ignorance and foolishness so people just use this or that book or person for reference not knowing that that book or person will also be judged by same rules before that could be acceptable as reference. it is because only rules are rules and only and only rules are standard or yardstick to measure all else in reference to.
Language is important to understand because then it is easier to decide matters when you know how words work. Arabic language is in a unique position because at one end it is linked fully to past languages and at the other it will be the future language of humanity. Why? It is because it is the only such language alive today. By knowing arabic it is possible to reconstruct dead languages of the past and jews have recreated hebrew with help of this mechanism. In other words if you know your mother, you are highly likely to know who is your grandmother. If you know your grandmother then you are highly likely to know your great grandmother and so on and so forth. The idea is if you know one language properly then it makes it a lot easier to learn others.
We find lots of inscriptions in archaeological finds that are written in dead languages and people spend their life time to get to know those language so the they could decode the messages in them.
We also need to devise rules as to how to understand languages, so one idea is to look at roots and how they evolved as well as what are likely to be their root concrete meanings. One rule that seems to work in case of arabic roots is that all meanings that we find in dictionaries for words revolve around one concept, which can then be explained to such a degree that we can get lots of meanings from that.
Let us take arabic word SIRAAT from root SWAD, RAA and TWAA. We are told it means path, yes but that is a derived meaning from the actual concrete meaning and that meaning is CUT. Path is called path because a field or ground is cut through to make a path like a sword cuts through a body ie it makes its way through a body. So this root is used to mean anything that fits this description or the concept.
We can take another word eg JUMAL from root JEEM, MEEM and LAAM. It means a piece of rope or a camel or steadfastness or beauty. The actual root meaning is something that is admired for its purpose or usefulness.
Likewise we have arabic word KHATAM from root KHAA, TAA and MEEM. It has various meanings in dictionary but what is its root meaning that combines all of its meanings with a little bit of explanation? Once people come to know that meaning the divide between people who claim prophethood after prophet muhammad can be ended.
The issue is discussed to its conclusion by ghulam ahmed parwez in his book about finality of the prophethood with the definition of words NABI and RASOOL. That definition is worth keeping in mind.
Re: What if…
Firstly, I would like to thank you for showing respect and be gentle enough in the debate.
Secondly, I would be happy to interpret Quran and ahadith in accordance with earlier scholars and sahabah. In order for me to do this.. I, like any other Muslim should have 2 criterias to keep in mind again.
If I start quoting scholars that are very famously known in ahl e sunnah and have written against the beliefs you are preaching, will you take their word for it ? keep in mind, they are not my standard.. but you are the one asking me to interpret it like earlier scholars.. so I ask you.. are you ready to listen to those scholars interpretation ?
listen brother, with all due respect.. my aqaid are not any different than any ordinary Muslim. Just merely believing in a person we have been waiting for does NOT make a non muslim, and you ‘waiting’ for the same person does not qualify you as a Muslim. The definition of being a Muslim is as simple as it can be. Our prophet has already told us who is Muslim and who isnt. So, lets not get there.
When we talk to Christians, though we put forth the pious character of our holy prophet s.a.w, but even before that, we create a room of prophethood or a man from God from their own book. Until and unless they dont accept that.. there is no point talking to them about the noble character of Muhammad PBUH.
The example is poor. We invite people to come join us (have a sip of water), and if they don’t like it.. dont drink. But do not stand outside of a flowing river and keep criticizing. This is the job of an opponents. They always find flaws. Christians even to this day write books after books about the concept of jihaad in Islam.. about the rights of women in Islam etc. Does that make Islam any less truthful ? Certainly not. If you need to understand a certain belief, ask the person believing in it and then reconcile and see if Islam allows it or not.
It’s quite interesting to say that its good to be with majority.. but no body knows or cares about where the majority is taking you?
Islam is not the same as how it came 1500 years ago. People who curse sahabah call themselves Muslims.. people who bow down infront of a grave call themselves muslims, people who wrongly and unjustly kill people call themselves Muslims.. what is left of Islam ? We have lost the fear of God, we have lost the fear of being punished by God. But all that aside, its foolish to say our interpretation does not correlate to ijmah of ummah from 1500 years ago..since you dont even know what ijmahs have we seen throughout the Islamic history. It may not corelate to today’s ijmah of scholars who have pride of knowledge of deen in their hearts and less fear of God. But its not right to say it doesnt correlate to earlier Islam.
As for Psyah and Ibn Sadique.. i have always been willing to talk to them. But when they start beating around the bushes and dont even understand a simple thing and cant even explain any simple belief… why do I even waste their or my time ?
Re: What if…
for your kind information, my friend.. If you have any little knowledge about the subcontinent and the time in which Hz Ahmad (as) had been appointed, and if you read about Him from an independent source ( you can even read about him in English newspapers of those times.. inbox me for newspaper cuttings ).. if you ready about His character, about his work for Islam, about his marvellous understanding of Quran e Paak ( you can read what scholars at his time thought about him ).. if you read about why He was given the title of ‘Sultan ul Qalam’ , it does not take long to understand what a high spiritual status of a man He was.
Now, ofcourse, once one claim to be prophet, you see opposition. If Muhammad PBUH despite being called Sadiq and Ameen was being refuted by His own people.. Hz Ahmad(as) was his servant.. same had to happen to him too. We shouldnt be worried about that
As far as what He wrote and about his tone.. alas a very old allegation. All had been given answers of. One need to just be neutral minded and read up on the answers.
I’m not comparing Quran with any book by any means.. but even in Quran disbelievers have been called by harsh words.. someone who believes does not question. Someone who doesnt always questions even after getting answers.
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Bao Bihari, I am sure you didnt watch the video or perhaps you played deaf of ear to it all. Sir Syed kay nazdeek Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) aik saleh insaan thay, Allama Iqbal kay nazdeek jis terha islam ko Mirza sahib ne samjha, kisi aur ne nahi samjha, dr Israr kay nazdeek Mirza sahib Ulema ki aankhon ka tara banay rahay, jab tak unho ne nabuwat ka dawa nahi kiya. Aur jaisay hi dawa kiya, yehi log dushman ban gaye.
Does this remind you of something in the past? Quraish ne Nabi Pak (saw) ko Sadiq aur Ameen ka title diya, lekin jab nabuwat ka dawa hua tu sab dushman ban gaye.
As far as harsh words used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as), you guys have always taken it out of context. Read the page before and after of the single line that you quote and it becomes apparent why a harsh tone has been taken. If you just continue to read quotes from websites like alhafeez and ahmedi.org, you will never be able to understand the subject matter that mirza sahib was explaining. You cannot gain anything positive from the websites who entire purpose is propagate hatred towards us.
Quran mein jews ko “Zaleel Bandar” kaha gya hai (Al-Baqarah Verse 65). One can nauzobillah say that this sort of language doesnt suit a holy book, but once you read the subject matter in detail, language doesnt seem as harsh.
You keep going on about your interpretation of islam being the correct one. Agar ummat ka aqeeda theek hota tu Imam Mahdi kay aanay ki zaroorat hi kiya thi?
By the way, still no answer about why Issa (aw) would come to guide muslims.