By the way, nobody answered why a prophet that was sent to Bani Israel would be re-sent to guide muslim ummah.
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we believe in All Prophets of Allah, our guide Muhammad SAW has left us Guidance on which we will prosper in the hearafter and he is Imam ul anbiya. the generations before us have passed on without Isa AS guiding them other then the lessons from his seerah. we do not need Isa AS to guide us as such, we need Allah SWT's help, Isa AS is that help. with the muslims he will pray amongst us, and atleast once pray behined our imam. Allah SWT has decreed that He and His Messengers shall be successful, and theres a few other reasons why this mission has to be Prophet Isa AS's. the Real and in person Prophet Isa AS. this only represents my own view
but if you are into 'sir syed' type rationalism, then talk to mughal1 for understanding, as you'll never be able to understand us. and there will remain an unbridgeable difference which will leave us talking at each other
sir syed was not another prophet of yours or was he? whats his rank in qadianism?
tell me when did the ummah of RasoolAllah SAW go wrong? as you cannot even understand us and we consider ourselves ummattis of Muhammad SAW, you believe only in umatti nabi, right? so it means we were given the scripture but we messed up, tell me when that occurred? in the Quran the review of the muslims is glowing 'best of nations raised up for mankind', and whoever does not aim to believe like Sahaba is a disbeliever etc
salam obaid
we believe in All Prophets of Allah, our guide Muhammad SAW has left us Guidance on which we will prosper in the hearafter and he is Imam ul anbiya. the generations before us have passed on without Isa AS guiding them other then the lessons from his seerah. we do not need Isa AS to guide us as such, we need Allah SWT's help, Isa AS is that help. with the muslims he will pray amongst us, and atleast once pray behined our imam. Allah SWT has decreed that He and His Messengers shall be successful, and theres a few other reasons why this mission has to be Prophet Isa AS's. the Real and in person Prophet Isa AS. this only represents my own view
First of all, walaikum salam.
So you are saying since muslim ummah needed Allah's help, Allah will resend Issa (as). Do you realize how stupid this argument sound. Nauzobillah Allah couldnt find another way to help muslim ummah but to send them a prophet from Bani Israel. Or perhaps nauzobillah Allah couldnt trust Imam Mahdi enough so he decided two is better than one. And if Isa (as) was so essential for the fulfillment of this mission, why was there a need for Imam Mahdi? The more you think about it, the clearer it becomes that Issa and Mahdi are infact the same person.
I am sure you have been presented several verses of quran that describe the death of Issa (as). If you would like I can provide them again.
In fact, the first Ijmaa of muslim proves the death of Issa (as). When holy prophet (saw) passed away, Umar (ra) was not ready to believe his death. At that time Abu Bakr (ra) recited that verse of Quran that Muhammad (saw) was just a prophet and has passed away just like ALL the prophets before him. And yes, it does mean ALL prophets. If you need further clarification, i'll gladly provide it.
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but if you are into 'sir syed' type rationalism, then talk to mughal1 for understanding, as you'll never be able to understand us. and there will remain an unbridgeable difference which will leave us talking at each other
sir syed was not another prophet of yours or was he? whats his rank in qadianism?
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Sir Syed has nothing to do with Ahmadis. If anything, he was an opponent of Ahmadiyyat. I was merely describing what did the prominent Non-Ahmadi muslim of that age thought about Mirza Sahib (as) since Bao Bihari had raised a question about character of Mirza Sahib.
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tell me when did the ummah of RasoolAllah SAW go wrong? as you cannot even understand us and we consider ourselves ummattis of Muhammad SAW, you believe only in umatti nabi, right? so it means we were given the scripture but we messed up, tell me when that occurred? in the Quran the review of the muslims is glowing 'best of nations raised up for mankind', and whoever does not aim to believe like Sahaba is a disbeliever etc
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I am not sure what your question is here. I cannot give you a particular year that muslims went wrong. It happened gradually just as Prophet (saw) had predicted. Or are you implying that nothing went wrong with muslims?
thanks for the link but couldn’t you find an un-biased or some pak gov site that have this information. This website is beyond doubt biased and look at its title: “second hand Islam”. pretty weird. isn’t it?
Ameen!!
here is the link to Mahzar nama. Written statement by Jammat-e-Ahmadiyya presented in National Assembly in 1974.
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So you are saying since muslim ummah needed Allah's help, Allah will resend Issa (as).
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yes we (sunnis)will need Allah SWT help, but theres alot more reasons handed down through the scriptures about why it has to be Prophet ISA AS.
i do realise you want to present your case again but you will need to talk to someone comfortable in translating Quran and has sound knowledge of Quran and sunnah. there are brothers here who can do that.
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Do you realize how stupid this argument sound.
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actually im not aware of how stupid it sounds, how stupid is it?
is it just me who is stupid or everyone who believed in this concept?
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Sir Syed has nothing to do with Ahmadis. If anything, he was an opponent of Ahmadiyyat. I was merely describing what did the prominent Non-Ahmadi muslim of that age thought about Mirza Sahib (as) since Bao Bihari had raised a question about character of Mirza Sahib.
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afaik sir syed had written books before mgaq on interpreting Islam rationally, and on Isa AS being dead. he generally viewed muslims as in need of modernising. i think of him as a british sepoy. all principles which are encapsulated today in Qadianism.
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I am not sure what your question is here. I cannot give you a particular year that muslims went wrong.
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ok thanks i will to come to an understanding, with approximate year, on this eventually, Allah permitting
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It happened gradually just as Prophet (saw) had predicted. Or are you implying that nothing went wrong with muslims?
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yes we are aware of our faults, i briefly mentioned some in post 48. i am actually abit comfortable and abit nervous about where the Ummah is, as you say the Prophet SAW told us what our state would be. we were warned, the rehmet is in the warning and to be fair we received more comforting news aswell
if you include yourself as muslims the same should be the state of you too.
what i cant work out is what of Prophet Muhammad SAW you follow and what you dont. is it 1) everything 2) most 3) selected hadiths 4) everything except what was contradicted by 'wahi' of mgaq 5) only use selected hadiths to prove things to others whilst Qadianism has books of a prophet so you do not need to refer to old Islam for your own religion?
yes we (sunnis)will need Allah SWT help, but theres alot more reasons handed down through the scriptures about why it has to be Prophet ISA AS.
i do realise you want to present your case again but you will need to talk to someone comfortable in translating Quran and has sound knowledge of Quran and sunnah. there are brothers here who can do that.
Lets assume that Issa and Mahdi are two different people, who would really be in charge? You never answered why we need Mahdi when Issa is there to guide us?
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afaik sir syed had written books before mgaq on interpreting Islam rationally, and on Isa AS being dead. he generally viewed muslims as in need of modernising. i think of him as a british sepoy. all principles which are encapsulated today in Qadianism
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I really dont get your fascination with calling other people spies. First we were british agents, then we became jewish agents, now american agents ....
As far as death of Issa (as), I had presented you the case of first Ijmaa of muslim which is yet another proof of his death. Kindly present a single verse from Quran which mentions that Issa (as) was taken to heavens alive. I can present you several verses of Quran about his death, if you havent been presented them yet.
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if you include yourself as muslims the same should be the state of you too.
what i cant work out is what of Prophet Muhammad SAW you follow and what you dont. is it 1) everything 2) most 3) selected hadiths 4) everything except what was contradicted by 'wahi' of mgaq 5) only use selected hadiths to prove things to others whilst Qadianism has books of a prophet so you do not need to refer to old Islam for your own religion?
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No, it would not be the same case for me, because we have accepted the Mahdi.
We follow the same Prophet (saw) and same hierarchy of things, quran, sunnat, hadees, ijmaa, qayaas. And no we dont have any "book" other than Quran. There are books that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) wrote as explanation/tafseer of Holy Quran. And we DONT consider his books among the holy books (books that have Shariyat).
Inshallah agreed, Since we both are parties so any ruling on whether this is correct intrepretation should come from earlier scholars writings. I hope you dont mind that.
Point what i am trying to prove is that your aqaidh do not corelate with ijmah e ummat for last 1400 years.
This is contradiction of your first poojnt, khair, ijmah e ummat is hujjat on us. There is a famous hadith of hadrat muaz bin jabal to support this. waisay bhi i am not taking scholars that you disagree with, we can alwasy choose the mujadideeen that MGAQ sahib cosnidered as mujadideen.
Ageed??
You can always disuss the mufaridaat of such ulema in another thread.
It is not point of discussion at the moment , we can and we have discussed this point umpteen times already. So lets just move step by step.
I am the one who needs clarification , and i want clarification about authenticity of MGAQ first, why so reluctance on this, if we both have to reach to a conclusion then i need to clear up on his personality before i can move any further. Otherwise it would be mere waste of bandwidth and time.
Bhai lets not move in circles, you believe on taqwa and knowledge of your scholars, and i am certain about taqwa and knowledge of my scholars, this approach will not lead us any where.
Onus is for you to prove as you have deviated from the mainstream aqeedah, you have to link your self with the golden chain of ahadith till our belived and you have to prove that how you intrepret quran and sunnah is in accordance with the teachings of islam. if you dont need any of these then it is better that we both post our points for our readers to learn rather then involve ourselves in a debate that will never end due to different benchmarks.
The attributes you posted about Mirza sahib, i can debate on each of these attributes with you, but not know, either have a separate thread opened or just wait the current topic to end.
about his tone and language, lets discuss this here to prove what is right and what is not.
i have the books, you can always quote the complete referances once i quote any thing out of context. Agreed?
Do you still expect that this would be made public by Ahmedi sources? the data is available for every one to see, any one who have question over its authenticity just counter check this from main source available at islamabad.
another way is to prove the questions wrong from the religious text.
The information is scanned and genuine if you can prove this wrong , do so. Please read it BTW
Do you still expect that this would be made public by Ahmedi sources? the data is available for every one to see, any one who have question over its authenticity just counter check this from main source available at islamabad.
another way is to prove the questions wrong from the religious text.
The information is scanned and genuine if you can prove this wrong , do so. Please read it BTW
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The pdf link doesn't work. and and images are pretty difficult to read. have you tried to go through it. I want to go through it so please help me out here.
btw, the assembly members which solved the 90 years old problem were portrayed 'in a different way' in 'Mard-e-momin's' white papers. I would like to get a hand on that whitepaper as well.
Lets assume that Issa and Mahdi are two different people, who would really be in charge? You never answered why we need Mahdi when Issa is there to ...).
Peace obaid1982
There is no doubt that the Mahdi is required before Isa (AS) comes ... The rallying together, to obtaining of bayt, the unification will be done on the hands of Al-Mahdi before the return of Isa (AS) ...
Al-Mahdi will remain the leader (at least whoever is leading the prayers will remain Imam) even after the arrival of Isa (AS) ... Isa (AS)'s second coming is to fulfil the purpose of killing the Dajjal and that is why he (AS) will ceremoniously arrive after Dajjal comes and he (AS) will not die before Dajjal has dies and Yajuj WaMajuj perish too.
obaid, please answer this. we need to get to know each other. if we going to continuesly bump into each other we need to know each other. i am not going anywhere, in time i will discuss everything if you want.
however this i found to be interesting
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Do you realize how stupid this argument sound.
The pdf link doesn't work. and and images are pretty difficult to read. have you tried to go through it. I want to go through it so please help me out here.
btw, the assembly members which solved the 90 years old problem were portrayed 'in a different way' in 'Mard-e-momin's' white papers. I would like to get a hand on that whitepaper as well.
Working good for me, i am involved in urdu translation of this whole proceedings.Which pages you could not read?
make the pdf available. that will do the job.
The online pages are too small. i couldn't make them full screen. but it is better to have downloadable version that could be easily read and browsed.
17th August 2009 PRESS RELEASE: Mirza Masroor Ahmad, the World Head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat, a Muslim organisation with an estimated 80 million members in 192 countries,
Mr. Popat – Is Mirza Tahir Ahmad telling the truth? Or is that Mirza Masroor Ahmad is lying?
The fact is that they both are lying.
You claim: Having Allah’s help everywhere ? Giving victory to the followers ?
Firstly the seat of Ahmadi/Qadiani Khilafaat was Qadian, then moved to Rubwa and now moved to London.
You call this Allah Almighty’s help, been chased out of the home grounds?
Secondly none of Ahmadis/Qadianis leadership (except one Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad perfrom hajj courtesy of British authorities as they had influence there and Uthmani Khilaffat was on the way out) this includes the founder ‘prophet’ had the honour to perform Hajj which is one of articles of faith in Islam.
Ahmadis/Qadianis nowadays do perform hajj or visit Islamic holy sites sneakily with western passports and dare not announce that they are Ahmadis. Wouldn’t Allah Almighty facilitate his most faithful so that they can perform duties to him in peace and security?
If Allah Almighty’s help was there the Ahmadis/Qadianis should be able to visit Islamic holy sites with their heads held high proud to be openly what they are.
Similar to the idea of evolution is the idea that one day in the future the wish that Ahmadis will have out numbered other Muslims and gained enough converts to claim that they are majority ... The day that comes will be the day evolution is proven
interesting that Ahmadis have no trouble in believing evolution probably because by format it is aligned with their own Messianic belief ...
There is no doubt that the Mahdi is required before Isa (AS) comes ... The rallying together, to obtaining of bayt, the unification will be done on the hands of Al-Mahdi before the return of Isa (AS) ...
Al-Mahdi will remain the leader (at least whoever is leading the prayers will remain Imam) even after the arrival of Isa (AS) ... Isa (AS)'s second coming is to fulfil the purpose of killing the Dajjal and that is why he (AS) will ceremoniously arrive after Dajjal comes and he (AS) will not die before Dajjal has dies and Yajuj WaMajuj perish too.
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how stupid is it?
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This is as stupid as the mockery that christians have made of their religion. One false belief of Issa (as) being alive has led you to make more and more illogical reasoning, in order to prove your initial flawed concept.
Psyah, you are saying that Issa (as) will be under the leadership of Imam Mahdi (a non prophet).
Please provide an example where a prophet of Allah has been under the command of a non-prophet. No matter how pious and noble a person might be, a prophet's status is higher. Just how many rules do we have to bend to fulfill your irrational belief. First you had to reject/postpone the verse of Quran "Kullu Nafsin Zaiqatul Maut" for Issa. Then you had to bring Issa out of heaven and into earth when clearly heaven is an eternal place. Then you had to break the rule of Khatam Un Nabiyeen and allow for Jesus to come after Muhammad (saw) (naozobillah as if he was retired-hurt in a game of cricket) and finally you placed a prophet of Allah under the command of a non-prophet. See the pattern .......
I will ask again that you provide an evidence from Quran that Issa (as) is in-fact alive and living in heaven. If you have already "proven" it in some other thread, would you be kind enough to provide me a link since I am new here.
I can be just a good at throwing things at you as well. I can say one false belief that MGA is Isa (AS) and at the same time that he is Al-Mahdi makes you ignore all the sounder hadith on the subject and at the same time insist that Isa (AS) originale has died and another has come in his (AS) place.
Actually our belief is not Isa (AS) will be under the leadership of Imam Mahdi - Our belief is that Al-Mahdi has a certain mission and Isa (AS) has a certain mission and BOTH will operate under the laws of Shari'ah. That is the Shari'ah of RasoolAllah Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW).
This strange term you are using "postpone" - kullu nafsin zaikatul mawt ... what? Is it not the case that a child born in this world generally lives until adulthood and old age? If so then is that also not postponing that verse? The translation of which is "Every soul shall taste of death" where in that sentence does it imply the tasting of death has to be NOW and if it implies eventually will die then that is what we also believe ... We also believe many prophets had very long lives well in to the hundreds of years - conveniently just to show MGA was Isa (AS) you reject those ages as well ... Just to show MGA was Isa (AS) you reject the idea of heaven being the place of our creation - in that heaven being a domain outside this Earth ... not just a fancy name for an Earthly garden - hence denying some aspects of The Ghaib. Just to show MGA was Isa (AS) you deny miracles - which are a core belief of the Ahl-us-Sunnah-wal-Jamah - On this point alone you stand isolated from the Ummah irrespective of the belief of who Isa (AS) was ... Combining the two miracles and ghaib - the Muslims believe in Al-Mi'raaj ... as an actual event - you however do not. Just to show MGA was Isa (AS) you wrongly quote the Bible and say that the Lost of Sheep of Israel meant that he Isa (AS) walked over to Kashmir to teach the Jews - there you say he (AS) died and there you lay claim to have his burial ground.
Then you accuse me of mistranslating Khatim-un-Nabiyeen ... but it is you who do not realise that this translation was contested by MGA himself who at the time he was alive was arguing with our scholars why it meant "SEAL" of approval rather than finality ... which is okay by me, but when a letter is finish only then you put a SEAL of approval on it ... this P.S. statement of another prophet makes a mockery of it ... Beside the hadith (authentic) say RasoolAllah (SAW) is final and one of authentic readings of the Qur'an - i.e. Warsh - state the verse as "Katam-un-Nabiyeen" - last of the prophets ... BOTH meanings are valid and should be taken here ... not one of your choosing.
And I did not say at all that Isa (AS) is hurt - rather I believe that Allah (SWT) protected him from even the slightest bit of harm ... Rather it is you who say that Isa (AS) was hurt - hurt on the cross - that he did not die and was not resurrected either - but his close companions rescued him ... You make the story of Isa (AS) so under-dramatic and effectively undermine the verse where it says that he --- Isa (AS) was raised to Him (Allah) ... as something of a superfluous statement.
Why did the Jews try to kill Isa (AS)? It was because they believed that the Messiah could not be harmed ... that is why they tried to find who the Messiah was ... so they went about being arrogant with the prophets of Allah (SWT) and tried to kill many of them and plotted against them to safeguard their own policies ... In a similar way you try to "kill" Isa (AS) with your words ...
Nothing is out of keeping of the power of Allah (SWT) ... although you believe that, you can't accept that as an answer ... you have to force the issue of the assumption that we believe Isa (AS) was unable to do his mission ... No, he completed his first mission - now his second coming is upon us - soon ... It has been stated in many threads to a detailed level of conversation ...
to support this. waisay bhi i am not taking scholars that you disagree with, we can alwasy choose the mujadideeen that MGAQ sahib cosnidered as mujadideen.
and you have to prove that how you intrepret quran and sunnah is in accordance with the teachings of islam. if you dont need any of these then it is better that we both post our points for our readers to learn rather then involve ourselves in a debate that will never end due to different benchmarks.
so many posts against the policy/rules of this forum yet allowed.
& Peace Brother