Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

Thanks for clarifying your point. Its simple, you ask for directions in Punjab, you'll either get an answer in Urdu or Punjabi. Most people who will answer in Punjabi are either not comfortable with speaking in Urdu, or do not want to. They belong to that province and they have the choice. This is why we have these provinces to begin with.

I do agree that it should be avoided in the Pak Counsulate and other official places, and only Urdu should be spoken there, though they should have staff that can help out people who speak other languages as well.

End of story.

Yes each provice and sector has their own native language and no one tells them to speak urdu otherwise....however urdu is our national language because if there is no national language then we wont be a nation.

where did I say all this :ASA:

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ sorry it was meant for abulwuuki

whats with the danda?

this is the misconception - the problems do no thave their own native language - each province has many native languages....the provinces are not cut on ethnic or linguistic lines at all...

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ India does not have a national language, and they are more coherent than us.

The independence of Bangaldesh was a completely different era and scenario. There was a lot of blatant racism involved. Bangaldeshis were seen as far inferior than any of the current ethnic groups in Pakistanare viewed by each other. There were politics too between Mujeeb and Bhutto. Bangladesh would have fallen off Pakistan sooner or later.

In present day pakistan it is not the urdu language which is the problem but resource sharing - give the more backwards areas a hand up and independence movements will die.

Anyway Spock - imagine we remove urdu or give it a lesser role. English will be used more. How would a pashtun punjabi seraiki sindhi balochi communicate? Chances are Punjabi will take over as the language with in which people communicate and this will breed more resentment.

In Punjabi it is Seraiki the most widely spoken language - ifyou are from Punajb are you willing to learn Seraiki??

so many countries have national languages and they are FAR MORE coherent than india. (btw india has many ethnic rebellions, pakistan was one of them)

Lets see you give examples. Give me one example of a country which is very diverse, like India, and has multiple languages.

Pakistan's problem is that we should have done exactly what India did, i.e. keeping Urdu, and English as the ofifical languages, and at the state level keep our provincial languages official.

The thing I dont understand is that what you are anyone else exactly means when you say we should keep english and urdu as official languages and then at the state level have our very own provincial languages?

What I want to know is in day to day life how exactly is all of this put into practise. It all sounds good in theory but we need someone like yourself who believes ina ll of this to tell us how all of this urdu aand english as official language, and provincial languages as state languages will work out.

By the way India has serious homelessness and poverty problems - Pakistan does not - should Pakistan follow suit there? Why does India have to enter every argument?

I want to know how all this language issue will affect the life of Pakistan and Pakistanis on a day to day basis.

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

So i missed the punch up then? Spock and Abdel, can we have a re-match, this time when the gloves r off???

Its about time you admit India is eons ahead of us, and this excuse of 'oh they have poverty doesnt work'. I have interacted with Indians, from all over India, and never seen them squabble like how Pakistanis do, when it comes to ethnicities and matters of provincial differences. India came into the discussion because some of you think we cant survive without 'one national language'. India came into the discussion because they have a better system of working with languages whilst keeping everyone happy, than us, and keep in mind we came from the same platform, and the same time, and look how well they did, and we are on the verge of breakups (infact already had one in the past). Imposing a language which no one except some rich migrants speak on everyone was one of the biggest mistakes we made.

It does affect the life of a citizen. East Pakistan was a good example, as to how much it affected the people over there. Most people do not consider it their own language, and they see it as a threat to their regional/provncial language and will always continue to be. Imposition of Urdu (a language which none of the 5 provinces spoke) is something they quote as the injustices done to them. You can keep saying they hate Pakistan, just like East Pakistanis, but it will have disastrous consequences.

What good has a country achieved when so many people live in such poverty? It does not make a country eons ahead of you just because 1 section of the country has a better standard. A country had made progress when it can make sure that THE BASIC NECESSEITIES OF LIFE ie food, clean water, clothing, shelter, health servies are met.

India has failed to meet to meet this to a significant section of its population - as a country I consider it a failure.....it has far more opportuinity to alleviate poverty than pakistan.....but NO there is a huge povertygap.

Parts of Pakistan may not be as successful as India but then again parts of Pakistan are not as miserable failure as india.

Of course India does nt squabble over ethnicities - theres absolutely NO ethnic problems within India:-

  1. have you forgotten about how untouchables and dalits are treated? the fac that they dont campaign for independece does nt mean lifes rosey for them.

  2. muslims in gujarat ring a bell?

  3. kashmir?

  4. khalistan?

  5. christians being persecuted?

They might keep everyone happy in one area but oh does India have its problems too.

Quite a lot of thse people who claim they dont want urdu imposed DETEST the very idea of pakistan.

See what I dont understand is - whats your solution to all this except moan about it?

What languages should be imposed upon the provinces? Tellme your ideas on a new system you have in mind. Surely youmust have a new system in mind or are you just complaining? Forget India, forget Bangladesh - concenrtate on punjab, sindh, balochistan, nwfp, ajk and na in the 21st century............

Your being really vague......other than complain about urdu being imposed youdont appear to have a solution other than say people use regional languages...how will regional languages be used and to do what exactly? What role will Urdu and regional langauges have in your system that solves the language problems?

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

thejoke, you think theres rampant poverty in India, and you think its not there in Pakistan?

I will ignore the 'desperate' attempt to malign India, because the world knows where India stands today, and where Pakistan stands, the latter being termed as a failed state by almost everyone these days.

As for your request for solution! I already said so, rewind 60 years, make Urdu and English the official languages, whereas every state would have its own official language, especially East Pakistan. Unfortunately, due to some selfish motives, we failed to do that, and imposed a foriegn language to every one of them. Its too late too do what I suggest, but giving the provinces more provincial autonomy would be a wise thing to do now, as the necessary damage control.

Im not one of those sad people whose life revolves around maligning India but yeah since India was dragged into the discussion with you claiming India does not have problems I just gave you a little reality check.

Pakistan does not have the sort of poverty that India has.

Your fooled and blinded by positive media reports. there is A HUGE difference between India and Pakistan - India gets a lot of good publicity. It is a country which has more or less rejected its culture and has accepted westernisation - one of the biggest issues in pakistan is that there are people who do not wantto see the country westernised and they are atively involved in resiting westernisation. Although the masses in pakistan have more or less accepted the slow westernisation process.

The biggest problem with people like you is that your life revolves around what other people judge you as - if most people judge pakistan as a failed state why not go out there and do something to stop the rot. If you dont get out there and do something yourself for your country no one else will.

By the way according to john maccain pakistan is no longer a failed state but was in 1999 i hope that makes you feel a lot better.

East Pakistan deserved its own language agreed - both urdu and bengali should have been equally important in this land where most speak bangaldesh.
BUT still bangladesh was ina DIFFERENT position to the provicnces in pakistan today - the provinces and ethnic groups within pakistan NEED NEED NEED Urdu to communicate across cultures.

If there is no urdu it will be punjabi or english which would take over.

The thinng is a language woul dhave to be imposed anyway. Educated south indians who have not learn Hindi HAVE to speak ENGLISH with their northern indian brethren. They still have to revert to an even more foreign language to communucate across the country? thats quite shameful to be honest although i can understand why south indias probably feel that hindi is nt a language they should have tolearn BUT THEY STILL HAVE TO LEARN ENGLISH.

You talk about provinces - why should provincial languages be imposed?

You obviously read a lot of provincilaists - their argument does not necessarily have to be correct or the right way forward. Most provincialists give two hoots about the minority languages that exist along their own language within their provinces.

IF Pakistan imposed provincial languages on people it would cause for more of a negative reaction than Urdu.

People would go ape.

Are you saying in Punjab people would be forced to learn Seraiki, potohari, punjabi?

In NWFP pashtu and pakhtu both dialects, kho, hindko, seraiki

In Balochistan - brohi, baluchi, pashtu ?

In Sindh -Sindhi, urdu, kacchi, gujarati?

Are you actually saying that al these languges willbe imposed upon people??

Joke, I have been to India myself. They are getting publicity because they are doing good, while we are becoming a joke. Westernization has absolutely zilch to do with it. They are less westernized than us, and take more pride in their culture.

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The biggest problem with people like you is that your life revolves around what other people judge you as - if most people judge pakistan as a failed state why not go out there and do something to stop the rot. If you dont get out there and do something yourself for your country no one else will.

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And the biggest problem with you is that you will continue to be denying what a joke you have become and continue to defend these jokes, no pun intended as per your nick. On top of that, you are not willing to admit the mistakes we made. Urdu was a foreign/alien language, and a nation who imposes a foreign/alien language to all of its provinces (none of them which speaks Urdu) is bound to end up with trouble.

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By the way according to john maccain pakistan is no longer a failed state but was in 1999 i hope that makes you feel a lot better.

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No he doesn't. I am following his campaign pretty closely, and at numerous times he and his party have said that Pakistan is not just a failed stated but a threat to other states now. Honestly, with whats happened in the last 5 y ears or so, everything blowing up, he is bound to make such statements, despite being the more Pakistan friendly of the two contestants.

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East Pakistan deserved its own language agreed - both urdu and bengali should have been equally important in this land where most speak bangaldesh.
BUT still bangladesh was ina DIFFERENT position to the provicnces in pakistan today - the provinces and ethnic groups within pakistan NEED NEED NEED Urdu to communicate across cultures.

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No its not. If you admit they deserve Bengali, then Punjab deserves Punjabi, and Sindh deserves Sindhi and so on. Elaborate on this 'different position' if you have to. You can have Urdu for inter-provincial communication all you want, but to make it the supreme language, thats absurd, and we already know how succesfull its been. Urdu is a great language, dont get me wrong, but you cant expect people to start loving it the way they love their own langauges. Big mistake.

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If there is no urdu it will be punjabi or english which would take over.

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I dont think Urdu enjoys such a 'reputable' stature in the first place. Educated people send their kids to English medium schools because they look down on Urdu. The love the migrants had for Urdu dissapeared pretty soon too. There are hardly any international publications on anything including science and tech in Urdu.

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The thinng is a language woul dhave to be imposed anyway. Educated south indians who have not learn Hindi HAVE to speak ENGLISH with their northern indian brethren. They still have to revert to an even more foreign language to communucate across the country? thats quite shameful to be honest although i can understand why south indias probably feel that hindi is nt a language they should have tolearn BUT THEY STILL HAVE TO LEARN ENGLISH.

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lol where did you come up with all that? There are plenty of learned South Indians who do not communicate in English, or Hindi. And if they live and work in South India, they dont have to ALL learn hindi or Urdu. You have to realize that everyone in South India does not work at a call center.

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You talk about provinces - why should provincial languages be imposed?

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You dont need to impose provincial langauges, because they already speak those languages. We imposed Urdu upon them, and thats one of the reasons why there is so much disharmony.

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You obviously read a lot of provincilaists - their argument does not necessarily have to be correct or the right way forward. Most provincialists give two hoots about the minority languages that exist along their own language within their provinces.

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Wow, you were talking about me judging people, now look whose talking. I dont give a crap about provincialists, and everyone knows what I think about ethnic hate mongers such as MQM, even though they would never bring this issue up because their votebank speaks this language. You just dont go around saying people who want to speak the langauge of their ancestors hate Pakistan. Thats absurd, and the next thing you know, they will show us a middle finger and be like, fine we hate Pakistan and dont want to be part of it. This is what happened with Bangladesh too.

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IF Pakistan imposed provincial languages on people it would cause for more of a negative reaction than Urdu.

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Nope, it would be certainly better than imposing a language upon them, that no one except a few wealthy migrants spoke. There wont be a reaction from Punjab if you ask them to speak Punjabi, or Sindh if you ask them to speak Sindhi, because thats what they do!

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People would go ape.

Are you saying in Punjab people would be forced to learn Seraiki, potohari, punjabi?

In NWFP pashtu and pakhtu both dialects, kho, hindko, seraiki

In Balochistan - brohi, baluchi, pashtu ?

In Sindh -Sindhi, urdu, kacchi, gujarati?

Are you actually saying that al these languges willbe imposed upon people??
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They should have a choice and ample work should be done to preserve these languages. Most of them would go for the 4 main languages that they speak in the first place. The only thing they are forced to learn right now is 'Urdu'.

OK I believe one thing - provincially - the whole of pakistan should be cut up into small pieces - if people want democracy they can have it.

The current provincial structure is wrong. So you believe provincial languages have the right to crush the smaller ones? Do you want minorities in provinces to be forced to learn the more widely spoken languages?

What would you do in a place like Balochistan - impose Balochi? There would be huge revolts from Pashtuns and Brohi speakers. The Pashtuns have no problem imposing upon Hindko and Chitrali speakers - but I guarantee you one thing if theywere fotced to learn Balochi because Urdu dwindles there would be a severe backlash.

In Punjab it would be Seraiki the language which will have to take over its the most widely spoken.

I know many nationalists and provincailists and people who love their own language excessively - to be fare most despise pakistan - their language and indentity bcomes before pakistan and the would rather not have t there.

You probably spend a lot of time reading articles by Psueo-intellectuals about how we should support our mother tongues. Mother tongues will develop only when education develops.

English and IT have further killed mother tongues and Urdu. Globalisation will play a negative role.

Ok imagine this Urdu becomes optional to learn - people learn their mother tongues isntead. Imagine a truck driver from Peshawar driving down the highway to Karachi. He left schoool at the age of 13. Driving down out of NWFP he follows the signs written in pashtu to Karachi. Eventually he enters D G Khan and oh my god hie cant read the sign inenglish and seraiki.

he asks someone in pashtu "which way to karachi?" .......no one understands as everyone speaks seraiki. Similar communication problems in sindh too. it is mostly educated people in pakistan who complain about urdu - the poor who migrate for what see its benefits.

When you travel around various areas of pakistan a lot - chitral, swat, peshawar, quetta, turbat, gwadar, karachi, hyderabad, thatta, sukker, multan, bahaapur, d g khan, mianali, islamabad, abbotttabad, kohistan, gilgit, hunza, muzafarabad.......and you know urdu......you learn how lucky you are that so many different people can at least understand and speak one language which is the national language. for minorities urdu plays a very important role. in pakistan people cant keep learning different languages so they all should support that one.

Imagine 1947 pakistan created and regional languges imposed. The one language which people might be forced to learn is punjabi because it has a strong culture and media presence and a significant number of pashtuns sindhis balochis can speak punjabi or bits of it......

It is not language which is destroying Pakistan - if you listen to balochistan, sindh, nwfp - it ispunjab which is destroying pakistan. I know your having a bad time with the MQM at the moment but provincialists see punjab and its exploitative behaviour as the threat to pakistan not urdu.

Im glad you found some good in India - not many pakistanis come back from india alive :p

Its the hypocrisy of the worlds countries that india is considered good. It has a big humans rights problem and Hindu fundamentalism is not considered a threat to American interests. It realy needs to sort out its communal problems, poverty rates, fast spreadig hiv and other health issues, racism, caste system, religious discrimination.....the americans dominate the media and for them india is a strategic ally ..........it is a country which has done well in being reccognised and a name for itself.......but its economic growth is not changing the situation of the poor.......

as for westernisation.....so many indians accept western cultural norms and behaviour as their own.....

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

tj, the argument is going into tangents, but India's success with language has nothing to do with caste, or HIV... Lets face it, they had better success with their idea of languages, and cohesion. Lets forget everything else. We imposed a language that less than 3% of the population knew, and as a result, we have one lost province, hardly any provincial harmony whatsoever, a bad education system and many many unhappy people. We have also pretty much destroyed our native and ancient languages in the process, along with our culture.

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

I wholeheartedly agree with Spoke. It is time we correct the mistakes made in the past. Let English be a lingua-franca and Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto, Baluchi, Sindhi, etc. as national languages. Further, other lanuages like Shina, Kohwar, Hinko, etc. must be given full rights...No group should impose its language on others.