Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

Spock - i was painting a rosey picture of India for you. Theres 2 sides to every story.

A language less than 3% knows and now almost 100% knows. The Pashtun , punjabi bus and truck drivers listen to Hindi music more than their native Pashtu and Punjabi. The current Hindi film music is actually very Urdu-ized. The Hindi-urdu dominance is felt from Bnagldesh west to Afghanistan. You just cant fight it. It did nt take over any new ground - it just replaced persian.

The current disputes in Pakistan today is about PUNJABI DOMINATION of Pakistan - agreed by all other provinces unanimously. The poor people in Pakistan who are the majority are nt really bothered which language they speak they want access to clean water, food, shelter - its only rich politicians with no income or basic necessity worries who worry about status of languages...

Dont worry about language changes...languages always change....new influences come and go....there is no right or wrong punjabi urdu sindhi pashtu urdu balochi.....the words we use today were not the sameas 200 years ago...and 400 years ago even different.....Traditions and cultures change too.....aint no big deal.....progression and technology changes cultures.....once upon a time pashtun women from NWFP would go to village ponds and streams to collect water for home.....but now with somany people having taps at home....women are less out going due to the more resrictive culture

LOTD agreed support for all languages. However you dont read what Spcok writes - he believes in the imposing of provincial languages which are considered punjabi, sindhi, pashtu, balochi....there is that fundamental difference between you and what he believes.

Even if a language is nt imposed, one will take over.

YOUR SCIENCE QUIZ!!!
82

India is a success story, when it comes to national harmony and unity, as far as their policy on language is concerned. We cant say the same.

:rotfl: Come on lets not turn exaggerate to an extent that it becomes a joke. Maybe the Bangalis were also listening to Urdu music when they revolted, right? Though what you essentially said negates having Urdu even more because it is uniting us with the Indian culture. I listen to more English songs than urdu songs, so that means I should replace Urdu with English?

Although Urdu is the official national language, it is spoken as a native tongue by only 8 percent of the population according to official figures (even they are far stretched, but lets assume they are correct)

Oh yeah, the same old Punjab runs Pakistan theory again. Punjabis arent stopping anyone from having their own language as the official language of the province. I wonder why this so called Punjabi regime sticks to Urdu then. Musharraf’s punjabi was very commendable too. People do take language seriously, again, people were killed in an attempt to force Urdu on Pakistanis.

Yes, and with it, maps changed too. 55% of our population who we forced to speak Urdu are no longer part of us. I guess there will be no urdu left in future either.

Perhaps I should quote him again… He said he agrees with me, and puts Urdu, Punjabi, Pashtu etc in the same boat. Thats what Ive been suggesting, you cant have Urdu as the sole national language. Read his post again (ill post it again in bold). Most sane people who learn from mistakes and look beyond ethnic bias agree with me. Again, those who advocate and prefer their own languages are not enemies of Pakistan like you suggested.

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Thanks LOTD, I hope people start to understand this mess we have created.

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India has been dealing with multiple separatist movements at once since the day it was created.

You're jumping back and forth between "knowing" and "speaking as a native language." Only 8% of Pakistan speaks Urdu as a native tongue, but far greater percentage knows the language and is able to communicate in it at some level. Even at independence, far more than 3% of the population 'knew' Urdu...the educated Muslim middle and upper classes, from Punjab to Bengal communicated in Urdu.

Ironically, Urdu's popularity with the Punjabi upper classes has played no small role in establishing the language's status in Pakistan today.

Let me get this straight.

You want to get rid of Urdu as Pakistan's lingua franca because its questionably indigenous and only spoken as a mother tongue by 8% of the population...and you want to replace it with a completely foreign language that is the native tongue of a whopping 0% of the population, and is spoken and understood by a significantly smaller number of people than Urdu...

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Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ Great achievement! The percentage of Pakistan that speaks Urdu is not even in double digits, and we kept it as our sole national language. It doesnt matter if anyone knows Urdu or not or whether its native to them oo not, the fact of the matter is,not even 10% of the people use our national language.

Btw, Jinab, if I am not mistaken, you said you are not Pakistani, and were a Kashmiri seperatist? What would your thoughts be if they came and imposed Hindi in Kashmir upon you?

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Define "use." Like I said before, you seem to be having a lot of trouble distinguishing between "native speakers" (Mohajirs) and people who know/use Urdu (most of Pakistan's urban population).

Urdu isn't native to Jammu or Kashmir...I have no problem with the fact that its the official language of the state. I'd like to see more official patronage of Kashmiri, but that doesn't mean I believe Urdu is "destroying J&K."

The Dogra Maharajas of Jammu & Kashmir made Urdu the state's official language in order to make it easier to import a Punjabi bureaucracy into the state. After Dogra Raj ended, Sheikh Abdullah & company opted to continue on with Urdu as they felt it could serve as a lingua franca in heterogeneous state with over a dozen native languages. Personally, I agree...and I'd much rather have Urdu as the state's official language than something completely foreign like English.

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As a Pakistani living abroad, communicating in english is a necessity, but its still an alien language and it will always be one.

For me Urdu is my pehchaan, my very first coherent words were in urdu, my dada's kahaniyan (which i still remember to heart) were in urdu, i learnt to think and rationalize in urdu. I am a Punjabi. Urdu was never forced on me, not at home and not in school, it came to me as naturally as my religion. Throughout school and college I did not care or know who among my peers was punjabi, mahajir, sindhi, balochi or pathan, Urdu was the bridge that connected and connects us all, amongst so much diversity.

Whenever I hear Urdu, unexpectedly, out in a mall or some other public venue, it instinctively touches my heart, for that split second I feel like I'm home. There is absolutely no other feeling that comes close to it.

For a language that is not "native" to me, it sure packs a powerful punch for me.

How convenient to blame a language for ALL our problems, agar yeh na ho toh sub theek ho. how typically ignorant, no wonder we are in the situation that we are, with ppl making stupid arguments like this and not even COMPREHENDING the real issues out there which are really "destroying" us.

Cafe vs All Views
87

I think you are having trouble understanding. Urdu is native to only 3-4% of the population which consisted of the original migrants. Urdu is spoken by only 7-8% (includes the migrants) who 'use it', not just because its their native language, but someone 60 years ago made it the national language .

Also, you are from India, where they follow the system which exactly falls in line with what me and LOTD were suggesting for India.

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Has it ever occured to you that whatever you said, can be felt and experienced by a Pashtu or a Punjabi speaker? They have hearts too, and they can be touched too, the same you do. If your dada jee started with Punjabi, then Im sure things would have turned out different. Just because you grew up listening to Urdu doesnt mean it has to be the language we should all use. I grew up learning and speaking Urdu too, along with English, but having seen all the disparity in Pakistan (growing up there), being a student of Pak Studies, and reading about history (esp. the Bengali freedom movement) has proved it was indeed a mistake imposing it as a sole national language.

Urdu hasnt destroyed our country, its our own mistakes, from which we never learn.

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Since you keep speaking on behalf of ALL non-urdu natives, I am telling you my side of the story, you keep generalising in your arguments, as if everyone is using urdu just because someone put a gun to their heads!! i'm telling you such is NOT the case with me, my family or my peers. There are Pakistanis out there who take pride in Urdu, its rich heritage and literature...despite being punjabi, pathan, sindhi or balochi.

Thank God for such patriots, who look at the bigger picture instead of being trapped in their self-righteousness.

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Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ 95% of the country consists of non-Urdu natives, so your side of the story isnt applicable to everyone. So are you saying those that don't speak Urdu are not patriots, like someone here who was earlier suggesting they were enemies of Pakistan. I dont know how well versed you are with history but do read up on the Urdu-Bengali controversy because some people like you had the same views about East Pakistanis back then.

Accents!!
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Yes and I am one of those non-urdu natives and I said i DO NOT agree with you, becsuse u seem to be speaking on behalf of the 95% of the population...talk about YOUR point of view and opinion, refrain from generalising for the entire country, unless you have something to back up your argument. East Pakistan issue was far more complicated then to pin it down simply on a language, very simplistic indeed.

No I am not accusing anyone of being unpatriotic because of their language preference, because unlike you I do not see language as a divider. I see Urdu as a unifying element in our society, as is we are divided into so many factions...can't we have even a single element that binds us together?! Even in religion we are arguing over shia, sunni, wahabi sects...political differences, ethnic issues, phir aik honay key liyay bucha kiya hai? You think english is going to bridge that gap, that disparity that you talk about? that may be your personal opinion but please do not assume thats what 95% of the population wants.

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*Exactly !! your so-called solution sounds way more 'destructive'. but hey right or wrong, its your personal opinion. I being a non-urdu native do not agree with it and if I am one, I'm sure there will be others. *

And thats why we need a fully functioning democracy where every single voice is heard, every opinion valued, regardless of the dialect behind that voice. the dire straits we are in today are not because of Urdu, it is because regardless of being a punjabi, sindhi, pathan, mahajir or balochi, our voices have been suppressed for far too long...zabaan koi bhi ho, jab bolnay hee nahi diya jaey ga toh koi bhi argument bekaar hai.

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lol first of all, dont get so upset. Secondly, what do you want me to back up, I will glady do so. Urdu is native to only a few percent of people in Pakistan, and thats a fact.

Most historians and the people of Bengal would disagree with you. When people were killed in a 1971 like fashion for voicing their rights to have Bengali as the national langauge of their province, you automatically plant the seeds for seperation.

Yes, it might have been a unifying factor IF it was spoken widely. Also, if you read carefully, I am saying we should not have Urdu as the ‘sole’ official language. There is nothing to be scared of, if any other langauge is granted an official status. There are 23 national languages in India, like I mentioned before, and Urdu is one of them.

How can an alien language bind us? Also, I dont think we dont need languages to bind us together as it doesnt work that way. But if you say so, Urdu has done a poor job in binding us together, dont you agree? 55% of our non-Urdu speaking population parted ways in 1971, provinicial disharmony in another two prevailing.

Shallow thinking… you should not look at religion for ‘binding’ because this isolates the minorities.

Maybe those 90% or more people should revert to Urdu first before you can speak for them :hehe:

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Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

Also, those saying people who speak their own languages (other than Urdu) aren't patriots, or enemies of the country... Real patriotism takes guts - the guts to appreciate and give rights to a language that you might not speak, but some of your fellow countrymen might speak in another part of the country. That is what binds us together, i.e. the appreciation and standing up for their rights, not the ability to speak that language.

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Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

anyways as far as I am concerned you are living on planet mars :) ur going around in circles.

its simple, i know Urdu works and is spoken and accepted way more widely than you assume, because growing up i have lived all over Pakistan. Wherever we went, choti sey choti jaga yah major cities...i did not have any problems settling in schools, or in any neighbourhood, even though some places were very ethnically diverse but since ALL of them used to use urdu as a common medium we never felt like outsiders and thats the point of a national language, to bring the community together despite being different. No one denies the diversity of our people and culture.

btw what language would you use to communicate with if u EVER went into interior Sindh or Punjab? or Makran and Kalat? or Bannu and Mansehra? Urdu is not the first language of all these areas but you will need it as an effective tool to communicate, thats the way we should look at it, a common ground to stand on, instead of an enemy.

the sub-forums of GS
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I can still post my facts and figures, from various sources, let me know.

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because growing up i have lived all over Pakistan. Wherever we went, choti sey choti jaga yah major cities...i did not have any problems settling in schools, or in any neighbourhood, even though some places were very ethnically diverse but since ALL of them used to use urdu as a common medium we never felt like outsiders and thats the point of a national language, to bring the community together despite being different. No one denies the diversity of our people and culture.

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Many people wont agree with what you said. I have even heard many Urdu speakers complain they dont like it when people talk in Punjabi, infact someone just mentioned that in the thread earlier. Imposing Urdu onto non-Urdu speakers is no different from imposing Arabic or Persian. Actually, I hope you know that before the British changed it, Persian used to be the official language here.

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btw what language would you use to communicate with if u EVER went into interior Sindh or Punjab? or Makran and Kalat? or Bannu and Mansehra?

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Running a nation with an effective policy on language is more important than worrying about what language I will speak when I go for ser-sapaata. Many foriegners come to Pakistan, some of them even settled and inter-married up north, and to this date none of them learnt Urdu.

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Urdu is not the first language of all these areas but you will need it as an effective tool to communicate, thats the way we should look at it, a common ground to stand on, instead of an enemy.
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Ok, I know what you mean but please read what I am about to say. I am saying Urdu shouldnt be the 'sole' or 'only' national language. It should be one of the official languages. This way we get to keep Urdu, an otherwise beautiful and modern language, without destroying our provincial languages, and promote more cultural harmony. I hope you understand this, as this will address your concern about having a common platform. Everyone will be happier this way, and more patriotic, by your definition.

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I think they should enforce the speaking of the Urdu language. Pakistan should be made into a police state, with a SS type secret police which infiltrates into every Pakistani home and enforces the law. Those caught speaking native languages be thrown into work camps and worked day and night, building roads, doing other hard labour jobs etc, without pay ofcourse. Any rebelions be crushed brutally to get the point of a zero-tolerance policy across, parade fake images and videos of 'everything is good and all human rights laws being honoured' in the media.

That would like be totally awesome.

Urdu ftw!!

Where were you last night at midnight ?
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I think what Spock wants is that president Zardari addresses the Punjabi audience in Sindhi.
I thin what Spock wants is that Nawaz Sharif addresses his pashtun audience in English.

To understand Spocks point of view just take a trip to the Pak Affairs section and he has a severe disdain for the MQM and I think its affecting his opinion of Urdu.

Urdu is no longer just spoken by those we term Muhajir from India. There is a signifcant amount of city punjabis who only use urdu at home and their kids have no knowledge of Punjabi. There are quite a few Pashtun and Sindhi households who have adopted Urdu as the language they use at home.

It is Urdu that is the BRIDGE between diffeerent cultures and languages. Spock please do travel by bus more from Punjab to SDindh then to Mekran - whilst travelling only speak to those next to you in Punjabi. Do not use any other language. Im guessing you cant have many friends from different cultures or do you adress them in YOUR language.

Spock the biggest problems Pakistan faces to day is all provincial and most of that because Punjab gets the lion shares. Very few Baloch areas get gas. The electricity generated from Terbela is used more by Punjab. Karachi makes so much money yet see little of it spent back on it. You have come across all these arguments before.

I am not from an urdu speaking background yet that has made me appreciate more that I learnt urdu and it has enabled me to communicate BETTER THAN EVER BEFORE with so many more Pakistanis. had they known english i would not have bothered. However, itwas for more benficial for me to learn urdu. My urdu is far from perfect but i could communicate effiectively in Turbat, Gwadar, Quetta, Karachi, Thatta, Bahawalpur, Multan, Lahore, D G Khan, Mianwali, Peshawar, Muzafarabad, Muree, Abottabad, Gilgit, Hunza, Chitral....

Less than 15% may speak it at home but more than 95% can communicate in it.

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The one thing you have yet to explain is how a national and official language is put into practise.

  1. Are we going to have signs in each and every language of Pakistan? I mean would Peshawar 66km haveto be written in everysingle langauge of pakistan?

  2. Would it mean that Zardari can start addressing whoever he wants to in Sindhi?

Its OK to talk about national and official language roles but you have nt specified how they will be used. You complain about Urdu yet you dont offer a solution. I have given you many examples of how Urdu can benefit people. Its up to you to give us a clear and detail description of what role regional and national languages will play.

Main Nahin Manta, Main nahin Janta
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For the millionth time, there are other countries that follow the system of having various national langauges. And for the millionth time, do some research and you will get it into head that the way things work with multiple national languages is better than imposing an alien language.