Re: Urdu as our national langauge
How many radio stations were there in parts which formed part of Pakistan in 1947? Were these channels covering all the population? Name some Urdu poets who had recognition among masses of all the areas (that formed part of Pakistan) in 1947.
Wasn't Iqbal famous in literary circles at least in punjab, kp and perhaps even sindh?
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
May I have another piece, please?
Hey, not my cake so have at it !
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Wasn't Iqbal famous in literary circles at least in punjab, kp and perhaps even sindh?
What is literacy rate of areas forming part of Pakistan today? What percentage of that literate population can be said to have literary circle?
Now consider the above questions for period 68 years ago. Not that I'm against any language or its writers, but the fact is literary circles of a language should not be criteria for judging popularity of a language among masses at large. Its like judging popularity of Persian in Pakistani areas due to Molana Rumi, Saadi and Hafiz. Their works were being taught in Madarsas of sub-continent way before partition. Though Persian was court language, but it was not popular among masses.
As far as Iqbal is concerned, no doubt he is a great poet, but all his popularity to masses level came after partition in Pakistan area. Iqbal was not popular in Balochistan, rural Punjab, Sindh (including Karachi except literary circles as you mentioned), Bengal and in KPK before partition. Reciting the beautiful 'Lab pe aati hai dua' in schools is post partition phenomenon.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Of course, Iqbal got big as he would after partition.
I can see a conversational argument that Urdu was forced on people like how Arabic was forced on Berbers to forget their own language, but literary wise, did many muslim sindhis even know how to read sindhi with the dismal literacy rate pre-partition? They say that afghan war bought a revival of pashto in KP, so I guess it means that urdu / dari etc was the language of the court in KP as well.
As far as punjabi goes, we don't use gurmukhi in Pakistan so wouldn't learning in urdu automatically allow you to read punjabi as well since they share the same script? It isn't like sindhi where three upside down dots mean "tay" or the two horizontal dots below the hay meant something else. It was interesting but yeah my sindhi alphabets are now rusty.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
My point is simple. Those who wanted to adapt their mother tongue for medium of instruction / way of communication for their children, they got the right to do so and every civilized society have acknowledged that right. Urdu is no doubt a wonderful language and every community of Pakistan contributed for it improvement to the possible extent. If other languages had been respected and got its due share and recognition, perhaps we did not have to see the disintegration, riots, hatred among the communities. Though, many people from Punjab try to own Urdu as their mother tongue (all power to them), but there is a faction there (may be not a big chunk), which calls Urdu as ‘men-eating language’.
Smokers’ Corner: The other Punjab - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Though literature in this context had begun to trickle out in the 1970s, it was the publication of three books between 1985 and 1996 that finally gave Punjabi nationalism its most cohesive literary shape.
The first was Hanif Ramey’s Punjab Ka Muqadma (The Case of Punjab). Ramay was a founding member of the PPP; and a leading ideologue behind the party’s populist concoction called ‘Islamic Socialism’ (late 1960s).
**In his 1985 book, Ramay suggests that the Punjabis turned against the Bengalis to safeguard the interests of those who had imposed Urdu (‘a foreign language’) upon them (the Punjabis). **Ramay continues by claiming that had the Punjabis continued to respect and love their own language, they would have understood the sentiments of East Pakistan’s Bengalis, and would not have turned against them.
The book was promptly banned by the intransigent Zia regime.
**The ban did not deter Syed Ahmed Ferani from authoring Punjabi Zaban Marre Gi Nahi (The Punjabi Language Will Not Die) in 1988. This is an even more radical expression of Punjabi nationalism. Here Ferani describes Urdu as ‘a man-eating language’ that made Punjabis kill fellow Punjabis and then people of other non-Urdu ethnic groups. This book too was banned.
**
The third major work in this context is a novel authored by Fakhar Zaman called Bewatna (Stateless) in 1995. Zaman, another former PPP man in Punjab, wrote an allegorical lament about how (he thought) the Punjabis (by adopting alien languages and cultures) have become aliens on their own soil. The novel, too, was banned.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
I think that we, perhaps, are derailing from the topic of the thread which was that arabic or Punjabi? (a majority speak it) should have been the national language of pakistan. I am not for completely eliminating regional languages; provinces should be responsible for creating local language institutes to further different languages.
As far as urdu in bangladesh, I think that it would have been a footnote in history if economic fairness had been pursued in the fifties and sixties. Unfortunately, we were born as a democratic republic, but be it due to machinations by Gov General Ghulam Muhammad, iskandar mirza or ayub khan, we couldn't even have an election as promised under the 1956 constitution. I know people in Pakistan who like Bhutto and kind of lament Pakistan that it didn't get its constitution until 1973 until I remind them that we had a constitution in 1956 which just wasn't allowed to be implemented. Ideally, ayub khan should have arrested Mirza and put him on trial and handed back govt to the assembly. You wouldn't have had Marshal Laws after that.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Personally, I think the kind of leverage provided to languages in India is the success formula and it should have been adapted in Pakistan from the very first day. Pakistan is a multi national country and as you see how Indian currency accommodated more than 10 languages, Pakistan should have accommodated its languages. The recipe of 'one religion, one language will lead to unity' proved failure.
There is no denial that at the end of the day 'its paapi pet' that takes front against all the matters be it religion, culture or language.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
An indian actually said to me that your currency looks better than our with all the chichoon ka murabba.
I think that I would apply the american concept where currency is left alone, but you can voter forms and then menus, announcements (private sector) in spanish. I have seen voter forms in hindi, korean, spanish, polish and english while working as an election judge.
People tend to forget that india also tried the Pakistani approach only to relent due to heavy opposition from southern india.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Here is a case in point. This is what your common Allah Dittas and Mukesh Palijos have to go through when try to file a FIR. Forget about the Darkhwast Kunanda, the police registrar who has to write the FIR probably needs a special education in this Urdu mixed Farsi.
You write the FIR, and show it back to Ditta or Palijo. Forget about him recognizing the script. You really think that he can understand what the heck does “Naam o sukoonat o itaala dehenda o musthagees” mean?
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
^ isii liye to police waale daaNT DapaT kar aise logoN ko bhagaa dete haiN aur sire se FIR darj hii nahiiN karte.
vaise, yeh FIR kaa culture kab Khatm hogaa? why doesn't police keep it simple. when someone reports an incident, the police should go out and investigate and then charge the culprit under the the available clauses of the law?
i hate this FIR culture where victims are further victimized in laying the charges.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
India has 22 officials languages but the currency note only features 15. Why the injustice with other 7 languages? Imagine what would have happened in Pakistan, if this was the case there.
I'm pretty sure there are still groups in India who cry wolf about grave injustice and victimisation for not having their language featured on the currency note.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Plus India has 155 languages with sizable population, but why only recognise 22 languages as official languages? Aren't these 22 languages being "imposed" on others who don't speak these languages? Isn't this grave injustice to other 133 languages?
It is very easy to give example of India, but how India as a country has managed to move forward despite million loopholes in their system is a very bitter pill to swallow. India as a country has this characteristic of not being too bogged down by the baggage of their past whereas same can't be said about certain Pakistanis.
Honestly, after 18th amendment, it should be province responsibility to promote regional languages. I lose respect for this whole language debate when it gets politicised, and becomes a mouthpiece for trouble making and xenophobic nationalists.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
@Jolie Indian constitution allows states to adopt any one or more of the languages in use in the state or Hindi as the official language of the state. Eight schedule of the constitution originally consisted 14 languages, Sindhi added in 1967. In 1992 and 2003 many languages added now it consist of 22. This could be a reason. I think more languages should be printed on currency notes :) there is a song 'ek sur' (one tune) or 'mile sur mera tumhara' (released 15 August 1988, Independence day) by GoI which became symble of unity in diversity. it's lyrics contained 15 languages. Same reason.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Of course, Iqbal got big as he would after partition.
I can see a conversational argument that Urdu was forced on people like how Arabic was forced on Berbers to forget their own language, but literary wise, did many muslim sindhis even know how to read sindhi with the dismal literacy rate pre-partition? They say that afghan war bought a revival of pashto in KP, so I guess it means that urdu / dari etc was the language of the court in KP as well.
As far as punjabi goes, we don't use gurmukhi in Pakistan so wouldn't learning in urdu automatically allow you to read punjabi as well since they share the same script? It isn't like sindhi where three upside down dots mean "tay" or the two horizontal dots below the hay meant something else. It was interesting but yeah my sindhi alphabets are now rusty.
Same can be said about East Pakistanis. An extreme poverty stricken land with dismal literacy rate, but somehow Pakistan arm chair intellectuals love to propagate that Bengalis chose a war because they didn't get Kishore. Isn't this also a very literary discontent? Like you said, this whole language debate would have been a small footnote in the history, if economic and electoral dispute of that time was resolved. The language issue was so insignificant in grand scheme of things that Mujib didn't even bother campaigning over it. He was not stupid! He knew exactly what he was doing.
Honestly, that Bhutto creature has to be the worst thing ever happened to Pakistan. His death massively distorted the 1971 narrative - massively. Large chunk of writers who had written the so called history of 1971 did so as a personal and political reaction to Zia for sake of Bhutto - nothing to do with writing objective history. Just look at NFP from today's time, a hardcore Jiyala is the 'social historian' who always induce a massive of dose of Bhutto sycophancy.
Sometimes I think how different this whole blame everything on Punjabis narrative would have been if it was not a Punjabi dictator (though technically a Muhajir) who hanged Bhutto. What if Zia, just like Ayub and Yahya was another Pashtun.
It's like Jiyalas just don't want to own it up that it was Bhutto's self destructive stubbornness that cost East Pakistan - but no, aa ja ke, ghoom phirke kisi tarhan blame Punjabion ko karna he. Yes that includes Punjabi jiyala too who were so upset with their master's tragic death, that they actually imposed the whole collective guilt and blame on the entire ethnicity just to protect the reputation of their king.
Yes Punjabis perhaps were at fault. Instead of blindly falling for the charms and charisma of Bhutto, they should have recognised the rights of Mujib, and stood up against that psychopath to save the country.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
@Jolie 155 languages with sizable proportion? Can you tell proportion of any 22 (if you can't find you can show atleast 15) languages other than 22 languages in Eight schedule? BTW these 22 languages are scheduled languages and the choice of state for official language is not limited to these 22 languages, they can choose any language spoken in the state.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
I’m afraid I don’t know the in depth details, you would be perhaps most learned about this issue and can most certainly add to my knowledge. The point I was trying to make was that 22 languages got the *official status *out of 155. Of course in realty, you can communicate in as many languages as you want, official status or not. But as of now, there are 22 official languages in India, 15 on currency note. Are any riots taking place to get the other 7 languages on the notes?
The thread is very much about granting official status to languages, otherwise contrary to what you may read here, Pakistan hasn’t banned any group (never in history) from speaking their mother tongue at home or outside or wherever.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
@Jolie My intention was not nitpicking. Every country has it's own polity & issues. I can't comment on Pakistan's these issues because I have no indepth knowledge of polity. Yes comparative study is good but in this thread I earliar said that one should see Parliament debate recordings to understand things. One formulae cannot be applied everywhere. To gain knowledge we should read literature on these issues so that we can know different view points. Language is a very serious issue.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Technically, I don't even know why sindhi is an official language since it pretty much the language of the migrants who are pretty much forgetting it over time. I think the reason for adding it was to 'one up' Pakistan that sindh belongs to us (india) since sindh has a vast hindu infrastructure from pre-partition era.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
I lose respect for this whole language debate when it gets politicised, and becomes a mouthpiece for trouble making and xenophobic nationalists.
Nawaz Sharif itni tezi se hair nahi lose kerta jitni tezi se aap threads kee respect lose kerti hain
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Thanks for informative posts on the subject. Otherwise, we know the fate of such discussions here.
BTW what is the benefit a language get by including it in Eighth schedule? What are the requirements / prerequisites for a language to get status of scheduled status. This will also reply query raised in post 78.