The hypocrisy of liberals

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Southie

I don’t understand the need for public floggimg for harassment - which should not be confused with molestation. As for staring, any woman slapping a man for staring should be charged with assault. They can stare right back, or ignore or walk away. I certainly hope we dont arrive at a place in time when civil,rights such as the right to observe is taken away!

In an uncivilized society, harsh and swift punishment is best.

[NavAhmed]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

Controlling a woman does not make a man a man. It makes him a non-man to feel empowered by oppressing others. Men who generally lack in many areas of life always try to oppress women. Oppression is the only tool they have. They don’t possess much else of worth and are afraid someone else will figure it out too.

Now if they could control other MEN, that would make them a real man. But I doubt they have it in them.

And again, those conditions are NOT prohibitions. They are simply guidelines to follow so as not to disrupt harmony for both people.

Let’s say she chooses not to work…she still has the right to a cook, maid, nanny and pretty much anything financially she chooses. She can twiddle her thumbs all day or watch soap operas and he would have no right to question because she is not obligated to take care of his children. She has the right to demand and he is obligated to fulfill.

So instead of going through all that, most women end up being reasonable and only ask for what their husbands can afford. And this attitude is what kills them.

I have no idea why Pakistani women are happy on the day of their wedding…a guy gives you a nice outfit and some jewelry so you can bring a boatload of Jahaiz with you, then come and take care of his brother, his sister, cook, clean, raise his kids, wash his clothes and take care of his parents that even he cannot stand.

So the females in Pakistan BUY (jahaiz) their husbands and their responsibilities.

From a purely financial standpoint, marriage in Pakistan is a terrible deal for women but a very lucrative one for men.

Those conditions are not mere guidelines but laws as per religious scholars. Agree with most other things you said.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@NavAhmed

Those conditions are not mere guidelines but laws as per religious scholars. Agree with most other things you said.

Again, they are NOT prohibitions as you are trying to turn them into. This is not a mandate that a woman cannot work. She CAN. And she can also create an environment that allows her to work.

Plus in today’s society, most men are not able to provide women with all the material comforts women are entitled to which makes it okay for her to work as well. If she demands and he cannot fulfill per HIS Islamic mandate, he is in no position to forbid anyone.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@m7md

This thing is very clear from the Quran, women are meant for indoors, and not for going out under normal circumstance. its ignorance to believe otherwise.

women having jobs is acceptable but is not the normal guidelines, and needs husbands explicit permission to leave the house.

No matter how many references you give them, they will come up with one hardcoded line like “that is mullah mindset interpretation of Islam”.
More than hundred times such arguments are put forth on this forum, they would not buy it. This was the reason I was asking these liberal defenders that do not bring religious argument.

@Reha

Permission is not equivalent to prohibition. To be clear: it IS allowed and can be normal when your husband allows it.

Women are not meant for indoors…their privacy and comfort is guarded heavily indoors (it is their right) and there is a difference. When they leave the home, they are instructed how to carry themselves to protect them. When they are home, MEN are instructed how to enter, leave, announce and safeguard their privacy at all times.

In your mind, this means women should not leave the home when that is not true. Women are to be respected and their privacy is of utmost importance as they may do pardah and their home is the only place they can truly feel comfortable and should not be required to do pardah.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

Wait, so you are justifying rape? Men cannot suppress their sexual desires so rape is justified? Rape is a CRIME (even in Islam) and you are required to restrain yourself around women even in Islam. Before you enter a room where you suspect a female might be, you are to announce your presence. That is how much self control you are supposed to have.

Yes, they **can **be suppressed and controlled. Majority of men that I have met are not in heat 24/7 and start panting at the sight of a woman. If Allah swt has truly designed you in a way where you have NO self control, I am sure you have some proof of the matter. I am not talking about a bigger sexual appetite. I am talking about zero self control around women.

Please do not go down this road. It is wrong to harass women because some men are not intelligent enough to control themselves.

Honestly, I read these threads and pray shukranay for my husband.

Well it is sort of I dont believe the interpretation you have, you wont believe the interpretation I have.
How can it become a justification if I tell you that men from your socalled society are hell bent on raping women?
Majority of men you met are good, but what about the fact that men from similar society are found raping one out of eight women? Just because you believe that men you met are ok it makes everything ok in those “civilized” and liberal societies?

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

There is nothing left for interpretation here. You are saying men have no self control and have every right to behave like animals…case in point: Pakistani men. Majority of Pakistani men I met before my husband were usually players looking for cheap thrills. Products of horrific parenting who were raised to believe women are their property.

As for the 1 in 8, its interesting that you even paid attention to that statistic…considering rape is actually institutionalized in Pakistan. Did you know that ONE CHILD IS RAPED EVERYDAY IN PAKISTAN? Its not a crime there to rape a woman or a child. Mukhataran Mai is a great example among MANY. It is encouraged and rarely is anyone held accountable for it. Its a domestic dispute and law enforcement is indifferent to it which is why you are treating it like its nothing. The only reason Mukhataran’s case got any attention was because of media…otherwise she would just be another notch in someone’s belt buckle. No one would care because rape is a part of the culture.

Several years ago, we had someone visit us from Pakistan. The lady in the family removed her burqah immediately upon entering my home even though my husband was present. I was a bit shocked and she noticed right away and explained that burqah is not really donned in Pakistan for religion anymore. Pardah is a form of self defense against sexual advances by men. Why is it that burqah is no longer religious in Pakistan? Why does a woman feel the need to cover herself to protect from lecherous men and not to please Allah swt which should be the driving motivation for anything we do in life? Why?

No one in America wears a burqah to hide themselves from overt sexual advances from men. They do it to please Allah and for that reason alone. But in Pakistan? It is a form of self defense.

Before pointing fingers at ANY other society, fix your own. My personal opinion is…uncivilized societies have no business using religion as part of their constitution. Pakistan needs to drop Islam, period.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

There is nothing left for interpretation here. You are saying men have no self control and have every right to behave like animals…case in point: Pakistani men. Majority of Pakistani men I met before my husband were usually players looking for cheap thrills. Products of horrific parenting who were raised to believe women are their property.

As for the 1 in 8, its interesting that you even paid attention to that statistic…considering rape is actually institutionalized in Pakistan. Did you know that ONE CHILD IS RAPED EVERYDAY IN PAKISTAN? Its not a crime there to rape a woman or a child. Mukhataran Mai is a great example among MANY. It is encouraged and rarely is anyone held accountable for it. Its a domestic dispute and law enforcement is indifferent to it which is why you are treating it like its nothing. The only reason Mukhataran’s case got any attention was because of media…otherwise she would just be another notch in someone’s belt buckle. No one would care because rape is a part of the culture.

Several years ago, we had someone visit us from Pakistan. The lady in the family removed her burqah immediately upon entering my home even though my husband was present. I was a bit shocked and she noticed right away and explained that burqah is not really donned in Pakistan for religion anymore. Pardah is a form of self defense against sexual advances by men. Why is it that burqah is no longer religious in Pakistan? Why does a woman feel the need to cover herself to protect from lecherous men and not to please Allah swt which should be the driving motivation for anything we do in life? Why?

No one in America wears a burqah to hide themselves from overt sexual advances from men. They do it to please Allah and for that reason alone. But in Pakistan? It is a form of self defense.

Before pointing fingers at ANY other society, fix your own. My personal opinion is…uncivilized societies have no business using religion as part of their constitution. Pakistan needs to drop Islam, period.

it doesn’t matter what you saying. why not talk about what is actually being reported on media?

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Southie

Is it your position that the percent of unreported crimes such as rape is the same in The aindian subcontinent vs the US? Do you have any link to back that up?

well the research clearly says that out of 1000 sexual assalts only 300 are repored to police, which means 70% of sexual crimes go unrepored in United States and these figures are taken from US Justice department’s survey. I have not mentioned multi-billion porn industry yet which suppresses women just for the sake of few pennies. These guys were throwing “Crime is not reported in Pak” at me without knowing that crime reporting figures in US are not encouraging either… Honestly speaking, i do not intend to spend alot of time discussing the details of such things just to change their mind, because i know nothing can turn their denial into acceptance… they are in denial, good for them.
And as for Pakistan… i never said that we are angels or there is no sexual crime. Our crime figures are touching alarming heights as well.. It’s still man’s world and sexual crime against women is everywhere and mostly it remains undercover which is unfortunate.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

[m7md]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@batameez

"exceptions at times are exceptions. "

Like what?

Where is the parda of men in all of this? Why use the women in the first place?

Assuming it’s about Muslims and setting aside the non Muslim world, why do Muslims countries/men’s use the women to sell their products?

Isn’t that non Islamic?

Considering men’s usually have a upper hand in Muslim countries

A packet of matches with a pic of a lady?

It sells better that’s why?

Blame is on the lady for letting her pic being used or the muslims mens for using it?

Parda for men lol seriously , well u do that
there is no purda for men, what had hit u

so if that’s happening it’s wrong, what about it..
theres no point in blaming anyone one must work to improve oneself and the society.

[redvelvet]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

1. No one in America wears a burqah to hide themselves from overt sexual advances from men. They do it to please Allah and for that reason alone. But in Pakistan? It is a form of self defense.

2. Before pointing fingers at ANY other society, fix your own. My personal opinion is…uncivilized societies have no business using religion as part of their constitution. Pakistan needs to drop Islam, period.

1. Performing an action out of love for Allah also necessitates understanding Allah’s reasons and wisdom behind that action.

For instance, one who pays their zakat regularly does so out of fear/love for Allah…but he/she is also able to explain why zakat is given.

With that said, I have seen Muslim women (Desi/non-Desi/converts) in the US who wear the hijab/burqa out of love for Allah…BUT this same love ALSO enables them to explain with confidence to the world that the reason they cover up is to avoid drawing harmful attention from men.

So I would have to respectfully disagree with you. It’s not done “solely” out of love. That love also contains reasons such as self-defense/protection. Love and reasons go hand-in-hand.

There’s all manner of “uncivilized” these days. A society in which bapardagi has not only become commonplace but is encouraged and lauded to the point that the masses become immune to it over time and “normalize” the trend…Where the shedding of clothes is associated with female success/progression/empowerment…is just another type of “uncivilized.” It’s not a contest. Not all the depravity of the world is contained in Pakistan or the East.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@ajazali

it doesn’t matter what you saying. why not talk about what is actually being reported on media?

This is reported by the media and its common knowledge.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@redvelvet

1. Performing an action out of love for Allah also necessitates understanding Allah’s reasons and wisdom behind that action.

For instance, one who pays their zakat regularly does so out of fear/love for Allah…but he/she is also able to explain why zakat is given.

With that said, I have seen Muslim women (Desi/non-Desi/converts) in the US who wear the hijab/burqa out of love for Allah…BUT this same love ALSO enables them to explain with confidence to the world that the reason they cover up is to avoid drawing harmful attention from men.

So I would have to respectfully disagree with you. It’s not done “solely” out of love. That love also contains reasons such as self-defense/protection. Love and reasons go hand-in-hand.

There’s all manner of “uncivilized” these days. A society in which bapardagi has not only become commonplace but is encouraged and lauded to the point that the masses become immune to it over time and “normalize” the trend…Where the shedding of clothes is associated with female success/progression/empowerment…is just another type of “uncivilized.” It’s not a contest. Not all the depravity of the world is contained in Pakistan or the East.

No, its not all contained in Pakistan or the East but it IS there and should never be ignored because “other people do it…why can’t we?”

I understand what you’re saying but there is no excuse for the thinking these posters have of “cover it up or else don’t blame us for being lecherous because we can’t control ourselves” What part of Islam gives a man the right to commit sin if he can’t keep it in his pants? Men are nigraan…they are responsible for protecting…no matter what. Nowhere in Islam does it say a man has a right to touch a woman if she’s not wearing a burqah.

I have a little boy at home and if he ever acts like this towards his wife, I will slap him until he sees stars.

[Sheeda_Pistol_1]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@redvelvet

.Where the shedding of clothes is associated with female success/progression/empowerment…is just another type of “uncivilized.”

Here is a beautiful quote from Tawakkul Karman!

Nobel Peace Prize winner “Tawakkul Karman,” ‘The mother of Yemen’s revolution,’ when asked about her Hijab by journalists and how it is not proportionate with her level of intellect and education, replied:

“Man in early times was almost naked, and as his intellect evolved, he started wearing clothes. What I am today and what I’m wearing represents the highest level of thought and civilization that man has achieved, and is not regressive. It’s the removal of clothes again that is a regression back to the ancient times.‘’

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[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

I just don’t agree with the mentality of…men are just too animalis-tic to have any self control.

Women need to cover up or else they are asking for it. Men have the right to harass women because their hormones are just too much for them to handle so they just end up all over the place in their hormonal craze. Having a woman on a can of shaving cream is enough to send Pakistani men into another hormonal craze. Seeing a woman on a matchbox again reduces them to a mass of hormones since they have such little self control. Boarding a bus is another issue because they see women all around them (with and without burqah) and since a woman’s place is in the home, they’re asking for men to harass them on public transport…again…those pesky hormones send them into a seizure and they lose all self control.

So why do they get upset when their sisters, daughters, wives and mothers get harassed? They should know its not something in a man’s control.

Quite disgusting, aren’t they?

[Dubaiwali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

SAME!

@IsaidwhatIsaid

This entire thread reaffirms my feminism and why I am not a practising Muslim L M A O.

[Dubaiwali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

Exactly. In Pakistan, the only time we really get to hear about child abuse is when the kid has been raped brutally, and/or dies. Everything is brushed under the carpet. Pakistan, people are afraid of going to the police, especially women. Women wouldn’t be seen anywhere near a police station because it is taboo. What will people say? Things are changing very slowly, but there’s a long way to go, and I reckon as long as Pakistan is gripped by extremist versions of Islam, things are never going to truly get better. I absolutely agree about the cycle of abuse. It is very unfortunate.

@third_string

I concur, women have a lot more rights and protections in America than Pakistan and so do children. I think a lot of women rights activist in desi cultures forget that children have a lot of rights and protection under western laws. The child abuse/corporal punishment that is considered normal in Pakistan and usually metted out by women is unacceptable in America.

I think we need to advocate against domestic violence of all forms. Pakistani shouldn’t hit women and likewise Pakistani women shouldn’t hit kids. It’s like a cycle of abuse in desi culture.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

Again, they are NOT prohibitions as you are trying to turn them into. This is not a mandate that a woman cannot work. She CAN. And she can also create an environment that allows her to work.

Plus in today’s society, most men are not able to provide women with all the material comforts women are entitled to which makes it okay for her to work as well. If she demands and he cannot fulfill per HIS Islamic mandate, he is in no position to forbid anyone.

I wonder how someone so material hungry can give bashin on Islam.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

Another hypocrisy…
Even though its sheer ignorance to say that if husband allows, wife can do any job but what about a husband does not want her wife do a job?
for a femimist and wanabe liberal, he is pure evil
So what is the use of islamic reference? This is the hypocrisy I already knew comming from these wananbe liberals.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@ajazali

I wonder how someone so material hungry can give bashin on Islam.

Really? So a woman demanding her Islam given rights makes her materialistic? These rules are implemented by Allah swt. Are you trying to imply Allah swt is imperfect? Your double standard is in direct conflict with Islam. Meaning its blasphemous to be honest. Careful now…you know what they do to blasphemers in Pakistan.

[m7md]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

No they’re not

They can have servants maids, wet nurses, cooks, nannies, etc and are not required to lift a finger to raise kids if they do not want to.

What do you think they would be doing with all that free time?

Yeah, they can work and do whatever they please. I know its not fair but it is Islam.

I can quote u from the Quran on this,

As for your second line it depends on which status is the woman coming from, anyhow the can enjoy their hobbies, u mean its better to work outside and let others care for the house, not a good idea,

dont say it’s not fair,it’s so fair. Ask us men, and how unfair is it for us these days u will be shocked.. Having no financial responsibility, unfair?
Its just like ppl in different jobs have different responsibles, doesn’t mean it’s unfair. And in Quran it says not to wish for things in which Allah has made one excel other..

They can enjoy their hobbies in their free time, and what not,

Dont feel anything is unfair in Islam as Allah is just, its similar to having different jobs, like a pilot wishing to be an officer etc.. all are needed,

Sure anyone can work but working out of house it very much discouraged,
honestly y it is weird that working outside for other ppl is so liked and working for ones own family is in the spot light..

Infact one of the main benefits of being a woman is no financial burden, it surprises me at how accurate the prophets hadith is that towards the end of them, men will imitate woman and woman will imitate men.