Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Seminole · January 31, 2008, 9:16pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Then I will go ahead and personally blame you firstly making an outrageous comment, then getting your feathers ruffled because you were called on how ridiculous it was and now claim you didn't mean what you wrote. . You said "What we need to do is teach that it is disgusting and sinful, to avoid touching or looking as much as possible, due to it being 'dirty' only then can innocence be maintained as long as possible."

I correctly pointed out that by doing so can be damaging to the emotional well being and sexual devleopment of a child and lead to all kinds of trouble later in life. I fail to see what is out of context.

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Firstly: I said nothing about "teaching children that sex is disgusting" ... I meant that to teach children about sex AT ALL is wrong.
[/quote]
Perhaps you didn't mean what you said and phrased it incorrectly, but you said "What we need to do is teach that it is disgusting and sinful" so don't blame others for not reading your mind.

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Secondly: I said that the private parts are disgusting and filthy. Because of their functions.
[/quote]
Perhaps that's what you meant, but that's not what you wrote. But even then, that's ridiculous. A child shouldn't feel anyting on their bodies is disgusting. They are natural organs that perform natural acts. But nothing on our bodies are disgusting.

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We should stop them touching themselves when in childhood so they won't touch themselves in adolscence, thus will not discover "sex" until they need to.
[/quote]
Pray tell, how does a boy pee or clean w/o touching his penis? Besides, they will discover their sexuality when they reach puberty whether they touch their penis or not.

[quote]
Despised does NOT mean filthy it MEANS disgusting or causing of disgust. Those people who are not disgusted by discharge are themselves disgusting!
[/quote]
Perhaps you need to tell that to "others" in this thread who said sex is disgusting and filthy. No tease here, no personal attack, just public record.

Faisal · January 31, 2008, 9:20pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

To get the discussion back on track, let me say that the summarization by USResident is fair, more or less.

What we say to kids depends on the comprehension level of the kids, their ages, and also to a large extent what the kids are exposed to. A kid here in the US (exposed to US tv, American Idol etc) will have a much different comprehension/suspicion on these issues than a kid who is raised in a farm in a remote part of Pakistan. So each parent should use their best judgement in what information is provided to kids and at what age.

What hareem and her husband (by the way, I had no idea that you guys are married) teach their kids is up to them. Hopefully they will do a great job.

On a more basic level, I am still not clear what is the basis for claiming that sex is "disgusting/filthy". I can totally see that the actual discharge during sex is considered napaak. Thats fine.

But reading all the responses, it seems to me that the claim that "sex is disgusting/filthy" is not so much for the benefit of teaching under-age kids (which I think is wrong on multiple levels too), but its something the person actually seriously believes in. I am having a hard time that a person who claims to be fairly knowledgable about Islam (Masha Allah), strongly believes that an act of sawaab (sexual contact between spouses) is actually disgusting and/or filthy. This is an act that is done throughout history, else human race will become extinct, and produces beautiful babies. And its considered disgusting? Why? How?

Yes, this is an act that should be done in private. Yes, little kids don't need graphic instructions on whats involved. Yes, sexual acts should not be flaunted in public. Yes. Yes. Yes. But none of that makes sexual act as disgusting and/or filthy. Its a good deed, folks, when done with the right person (spouse) at the right time (after marriage).

psyah · January 31, 2008, 9:22pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Peace Seminole

Now show me where I was talking about sex? Stop posting red-herrings

psyah · January 31, 2008, 9:28pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Peace again Sister

You seem to learn or confirm a lot of Islam from Seminole. Let's read that ayat in full for your benefit:

"Then He made his offspring from semen of despised water"

At no stage does this ayat claim that sex is in itself disgusting .... oh look neither did I
And clearly it calls the result of sex i.e. the fluids "despised" .... what a surprise ...

I still have not heard an apology about the taunts you posted earlier .... I guess you agree with me that the sex that leads to more of a thing "despised" is more enjoyable .... yes or no?

hareem01 · January 31, 2008, 9:36pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Am i that old?

Guys we need some chill pills here. Everyone stop and take deep breath. I think we have escalated here into misunderstanding. Sr. Hareem might have chosen the wrong words or lets say presented them without the proper context and certain people here have just blown it out of proportion.

I think Hareem and Psyah were only trying to state that at a young age when children are incapable of understanding or comprehending the enjoyments of sex it is better to deter them from it until they are old enough to understand it. At that stage we can freely educate them about it and also with whatever are beliefs state about it i.e. sin or no sin. Her comments were about kids not adults but unfortunately we see adults here behaving childishly and more inappropriate than kids, what a shame.

You have to explain kids in a language they can comprehend and correlate to. Explaining them the joys of sex will definitely be not comprehendible to them at a young and tender age but yet it will give them the idea that it is something good. We teach kids to do good things and if you go this route it will be difficult for you to deter them later when they question you back about, I thought we were supposed to do good things and you taught us sex is a good enjoyable thing, then why are you stopping us. Things like these should be taught when they have more perspective of the world and their bodies and a little more mature.

Now in non-muslim cultures (not all but many) dating and other activities leading to pre-marital sex are not frowned upon so frequently but rather encouraged. This is not the way of muslims. We do not and should not educate our children about sex in a way that leads them to the idea that it can be experimented with out of the bounds of marriage when they are mature enough to handle it.

I think we need to stop mixing our arguments as if we are discussing adults or even teen kids who are capable of understanding. Hareems comments were more aimed at toddler kids or kindergarten level kids.

Folks be nice and be fair.

JazakAllah for the clarification…

psyah · January 31, 2008, 9:52pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Faisal:

To get the discussion back on track, let me say that the summarization by USResident is fair, more or less.

What we say to kids depends on the comprehension level of the kids, their ages, and also to a large extent what the kids are exposed to. A kid here in the US (exposed to US tv, American Idol etc) will have a much different comprehension/suspicion on these issues than a kid who is raised in a farm in a remote part of Pakistan. So each parent should use their best judgement in what information is provided to kids and at what age.

What hareem and her husband (by the way, I had no idea that you guys are married) teach their kids is up to them. Hopefully they will do a great job.

On a more basic level, I am still not clear what is the basis for claiming that sex is "disgusting/filthy". I can totally see that the actual discharge during sex is considered napaak. Thats fine.

But reading all the responses, it seems to me that the claim that "sex is disgusting/filthy" is not so much for the benefit of teaching under-age kids (which I think is wrong on multiple levels too), but its something the person actually seriously believes in. I am having a hard time that a person who claims to be fairly knowledgable about Islam (Masha Allah), strongly believes that an act of sawaab (sexual contact between spouses) is actually disgusting and/or filthy. This is an act that is done throughout history, else human race will become extinct, and produces beautiful babies. And its considered disgusting? Why? How?

Yes, this is an act that should be done in private. Yes, little kids don't need graphic instructions on whats involved. Yes, sexual acts should not be flaunted in public. Yes. Yes. Yes. But none of that makes sexual act as disgusting and/or filthy. Its a good deed, folks, when done with the right person (spouse) at the right time (after marriage).

Peace Bro. Faisal

Please acknowlege this ... Sex is not disgusting.

The result of sex is filthy and the media of sex is a thing despised. We know that many diseases are linked with those areas and we know that when we are born into this world we come in a pool of amniotic fluid, blood and excrementa.

This is the reality of our humble existence it is also why it is obvious that He does not sire nor is He begotten. He is pure from these debasing attributes.

When my wife said "sex is disgusting" she did so in retaliation to Seminole's twisted accusation of me claiming that it was, when in fact I did not, just read my first post in this thread. The definite opinion I hold is that children should be kept from the truth of the act of sex in itself ... i.e. we should not tell them how it is done, for as long as possible .... The pleasure of sex is a long way off and not worth talking about in this thread.

Hareem01 found herself defending a position that she was not really defending. Her stance is the same as mine ... to confirm.

USResident · January 31, 2008, 10:05pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Defensive …

Seminole · January 31, 2008, 10:05pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Psyah, please stop playing the victim and pretenting I am coming up with "twisted accustations". As a recap, this is what has been posted:

What we need to do is teach that it is disgusting and sinful

*I've grown up with the idea that sex is disgusting (which is right) *

Ofcourse sex is disgusting

Okay sex is a natural thing but it doesn't mean that its not disgusting and filthy.

*At the very first stage (probably for under 7's) you teach them that sex is something filthy *

Well it is not a lie as sex is disgusting in a manner(uncleanliness) so I don't think that it is wrong to tell them its filthy.

If you or hareem mispoke, then just say it. One does not repeatedly write "sex is disgusting" in retaliation. Either you wrote it or didn't. I didn't make it up. So stop the accusations that I am twisting things. The posts are here for all to read.

Faisal · January 31, 2008, 10:17pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Psyah,

Well, thats fine. When I first read this, I thought hareem was just being sarcastic. Then she repeated it a few times, and implied that its not so much as to what you tell the kids, but thats what she believes in. Thats where I was thinking ... where did that come from.

In any case you said "result of sex is filthy". Depends on what you mean by "result". If you mean semen and other bodily fluid. Ok, fine. If you mean that the babies that come into this world as a result of sex, then I beg to differ. I wouldn't call them filthy, regardless of how they are born (in a pool of whatever). They are Allah's creation and a miracle. Babies are not filthy at all.

And lastly, as I said before, each parent should determine when and how (and if) to explain sexual education to their kids. In your case, its to delay it as long as possible. In some other cases, parents may decide to educate their children before kids start getting wrong information from wrong sources. Its a deeply personal choice, and I don't think there is just one right answer that fits all, here.

PyariCgudia · January 31, 2008, 10:28pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Childish.

PyariCgudia · January 31, 2008, 10:34pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Faisal:

Psyah,

Well, thats fine. When I first read this, I thought hareem was just being sarcastic. Then she repeated it a few times, and implied that its not so much as to what you tell the kids, but thats what she believes in. Thats where I was thinking ... where did that come from.

In any case you said "result of sex is filthy". Depends on what you mean by "result". If you mean semen and other bodily fluid. Ok, fine. If you mean that the babies that come into this world as a result of sex, then I beg to differ. I wouldn't call them filthy, regardless of how they are born (in a pool of whatever). They are Allah's creation and a miracle. Babies are not filthy at all.

And lastly, as I said before, each parent should determine when and how (and if) to explain sexual education to their kids. In your case, its to delay it as long as possible. In some other cases, parents may decide to educate their children before kids start getting wrong information from wrong sources. Its a deeply personal choice, and I don't think there is just one right answer that fits all, here.

bodily fluids are NOT disgusting.

Semen contains sperm, which contains half the genetic material for your offspring. Are you calling half your child "disgusting" (this is not directed at you really faisal, but the holier than thou couple here who are above us all because they don't enjoy an instinct God gave us as a beautiful thing)?

In addition to sperm, it contains lubricating matieral and nourishment to get that sperm to its designated place. The egg. Again, nothing bad here at all - all healthy stuff. None of these substances are due to your body trying to get rid of "ghand".

A female's secretions are primarily lubricating, so that the act can take place with ease , so that your child can be conceived.

HOW is this the same as FECES???

Imaan se, people are so ridiculous in their opinions at times. Your deen is Islam. Not Pakistani-ism.

USResident · January 31, 2008, 10:34pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Bari bi, aap ka reply was so defensive no could possibly believe you are married. Married people do not come out and say Oh yeah! Well I have a wedding band on my finger. Anyway, you have really lost respect and lowered yourself. It will take a lot of effort to regain the lost honor. Just refrain from personal attacks. Its truly pathetic to see a muslim sister attack another one in such a lowly manner as you did. If you don't agree with someones views, fine, its alright but the taunting with such cheap comments as your not doing so good in that department, chichoraypan and chamarpanay ki had cross ker di aap ne. Can't imagine the kind of ethics you would teach your children that is if you really are married.

Why don't you behave with some dignity.

PyariCgudia · January 31, 2008, 10:39pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

psyah:

Peace Bro. Faisal

Please acknowlege this ... Sex is not disgusting.

The result of sex is filthy and the media of sex is a thing despised. We know that many diseases are linked with those areas and we know that when we are born into this world we come in a pool of amniotic fluid, blood and excrementa.

This is the reality of our humble existence it is also why it is obvious that He does not sire nor is He begotten. He is pure from these debasing attributes.

When my wife said "sex is disgusting" she did so in retaliation to Seminole's twisted accusation of me claiming that it was, when in fact I did not, just read my first post in this thread. The definite opinion I hold is that children should be kept from the truth of the act of sex in itself ... i.e. we should not tell them how it is done, for as long as possible .... The pleasure of sex is a long way off and not worth talking about in this thread.

Hareem01 found herself defending a position that she was not really defending. Her stance is the same as mine ... to confirm.

The only one here twisting anything is certainly not seminole. Its you. Seminole has quoted multiple times where you guys have insulted the direct act of sex, and THAT's where the problem is in this thread. I think most people here agree that talking to a 3 year old about the details of the sexual act would be inappropropriae. In fact, it would most likely be beyond their understanding anyway, as they're probably just beginning to speak - they don't even know what cells are at that stage, so how could you possibly explain conception to them in full scientific terms?

And do not think for one minute that parents who DO educate their children about the sexual act are putting on porn movies for their kids. It's typically explained in a more scientific style - explaining the union of the egg and the sperm and the function of the bodily organs, which believe it or not, your kids will figure out WELL BY THE AGE OF 8-9. Unless, you plan on homeschooling them and never letting them interact with other kids their age, and never letting them enter a library their entire life until you're ready to find a dulhan for them (which would be truly sick).

PyariCgudia · January 31, 2008, 10:42pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

USResident:

Bari bi, aap ka reply was so defensive no could possibly believe you are married. Married people do not come out and say Oh yeah! Well I have a wedding band on my finger. Anyway, you have really lost respect and lowered yourself. It will take a lot of effort to regain the lost honor. Just refrain from personal attacks. Its truly pathetic to see a muslim sister attack another one in such a lowly manner as you did. If you don't agree with someones views, fine, its alright but the taunting with such cheap comments as your not doing so good in that department, chichoraypan and chamarpanay ki had cross ker di aap ne. Can't imagine the kind of ethics you would teach your children that is if you really are married.

Why don't you behave with some dignity.

Who's getting personal now? USResident, I don't recall ever having had a problem with you, except I usually do disagree with many of your religious attitudes. In actuality, you should be following your own advice. No need to pick fights with people that just disagree with you :)

Hareem's comments were most DEFINITELY directed at me. This is how she insults. She does it in a very demeaning and indirect way, and this certainly isn't the first time she's behaved this way on the forums.

I have pure disgust for people who behave like their knowledge of Islam is THE ONLY correct knowledge of Islam, even when people are pulling up contradicting evidence to show them they are wrong, and Hareem is guilty of this on a REGULAR basis.

PyariCgudia · January 31, 2008, 10:45pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

And do not DARE refer to a vagina as a dirty organ:

Secondly: I said that the private parts are disgusting and filthy. Because of their functions. For children who are innocent they see their privates not a sexual organs, but as orifices of waste management. That is how we should maintain it. We should stop them touching themselves when in childhood so they won't touch themselves in adolscence, thus will not discover "sex" until they need to."

This is the most disrespectful thing this man has ever written. A vaginal area only becomes dirty when a woman doesn't maintain some basic cleanliness around it and even then, quite frankly, it is one of the most efficient organs when it comes to self-cleanliness. These so called vaginal secretions of yours clean the area on a regular basis throughout the day, and its a marvelous example of efficient biology in a woman's body. Have SOME respect for Allah's creation. I do not see any evidence that the Prophet (SAW) ever referred to his wives' privates as "dirty".

Seminole · January 31, 2008, 10:46pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

C'mon USResident. A little holier-than-thou when you think it's ok to call someone a liar when they claim they are married and then post 27 smilies about it. Does a Muslim brother attack his sister in such a lowly manner? And let's face it, there is no lost honor to be won or lost on a BB.

If someone wants to flaunt their marriage on a discussion board and one spouse continually says sex is filthy and disgusting, they are opening themselves up to those type of comments.

PyariCgudia · January 31, 2008, 10:54pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Its not flaunting a marriage, seminole. Its letting Hareem know that she is not the only one here who is qualified on sex education.

If it came across as flaunting, it was definitely not meant in that light at all, and I will most certainly apologize to anyone who felt that it was.

Orpheus · January 31, 2008, 11:09pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

...we have such prude individuals amongst us here. rolls eyes smiley

Faisal · January 31, 2008, 11:09pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

I think whats needed in this thread is a round of thanda thanda paani. Everyone taking a step back and re-focusing their energies.

A lot of discussion that was generated (got this thread onto page 3 - almost page 4) was based on a few posts by one poster. Apparently that position is now taken back (or was stated without thinking through, or was misstated).

We got really away from the topic of this thread which is "sex education and muslim youth", by the way, and are now indulging in a discussion on whether sex is filthy/disgusting; who is married and who is not; whether babies and bodily fluids are filthy and who can make the most terrible personal attacks. I am sure we can all do better than that.

Cheers!

hareem01 · January 31, 2008, 11:39pm

Re: Sex Education & Muslim Youth

Okay let me make it more clarify for you and others who still haven't understood it.
When I said sex is disgusting/filthy I meant the mess(discharge) that comes with it is filthy and impure though sexual intercourse between husband and wife is pleasurable and halal.
Similarly giving birth to a healthy baby is the most happiest thing in a woman's life and Islamically all of her sins washed away after it but the mess(fluid, blood, sometime feaces) comes with it is filthy and impure.

I surely didn't mean that having sex with ones partner (according to the limits made by Allah) is disgusting or haram.

I know man ...we are parents of 4 babies. It was meant to be semen not babies.