Quota system-is it justified: split from Karachi blood bath

[yahooo]

@Iconoclast

As a Punjabi i am willing to give up qouta system, it won’t affect punjabis at all, rather they will gain in jobs, so will the muhajirs, at expense of sindhis, balochis and pathans.

Question is, can you get them on board for it?
They will not agree to it and i think they are justified in that, they are underpriveleged when it comes to delivery of education and government resources to them.

Why is it that everything in Pakistan has to boil down to who is punjabi and who is “muhajir” and who is not? Is it too difficult for people there to look beyond their parochial interests for the sake of the country they inhabit?

It is one thing if you have a “quota system” for minorities/disadvantaged groups; it is quite another if you have a system where the relatively better off groups are the ones benefiting from such a system. Both “muhajirs” and punjabis come under the latter category so it is amusing that they the ones with an enviable share of quotas reserved for them.

Is it possible to have quotas for Sindhis and Balochis while at least the punjabis and the muhajirs compete on merit? I think it is. After all there is a thing known as affirmative action where the disadvantaged groups receive priority to an extent but other groups do not have a fixed share of seats in colleges/jobs allocated for them in advance. It is win-win situation because it allows upward social mobility for the disadvantaged segments of society, diminishing resentment, while still ensuring that meritocracy is not completely stripped off in the process.

[yahooo]

@Iconoclast

And for your info qouta in federal jobs was not started by Bhutto in 1973, but by Liaqat Ali Khan for migrants. Thats why upians and cpians continued to come to Pakistan till late 1950s to get jobs.

I think I missed the memo on that. It would be interesting if you could substantiate your outrageous claim with some facts or statistics.

Pakistan was created on the basis of “Pakistan ka matlab kia, la illaha illala” so assuming these “upians and cpians” were muslims, did it occur to you that there might have other reasons that drew them to Pakistan? Hindus and Sikhs continued to pour into India well after 1940s and it was not exactly the lure of jobs in India that propelled them to leave their ancestral lands for good.

[Iconoclast]

blah blah blah..

as a Punjabi from so-called privileged northern punjab, this quota system is truly a discriminated piece of crap, it should be abolished as soon as possible. All the people from from any corner and race must be able to freely compete for gov. jobs.

As far the Punjabi discrimination concern, it's in our genes. It's better if we accept it soon then later on crying ooh why why... .. sindh, balouch, nwfp, fata and rest of the region around punjab hate us... because of our kartoot they hate us. the cast/family clan system is still a huge issue of so called privileged punjabi's and it's overwhelming dominate.. the chauhdry's, malik, jutt, butt, shyt, mian,... ..hick. fick.. etc..etc .whatever.. !

From someone whos father was offered a ticket by MQM to contest elections, i wont expect anything different than what you wrote above.

[Iconoclast]

Why is it that everything in Pakistan has to boil down to who is punjabi and who is “muhajir” and who is not? Is it too difficult for people there to look beyond their parochial interests for the sake of the country they inhabit?

It is one thing if you have a "quota system" for minorities/disadvantaged groups; it is quite another if you have a system where the relatively better off groups are the ones benefiting from such a system. Both "muhajirs" and punjabis come under the latter category so it is amusing that they the ones with an enviable share of quotas reserved for them.

Is it possible to have quotas for Sindhis and Balochis while at least the punjabis and the muhajirs compete on merit? I think it is. After all there is a thing known as affirmative action where the disadvantaged groups receive priority to an extent but other groups do not have a fixed share of seats in colleges/jobs allocated for them in advance. It is win-win situation because it allows upward social mobility for the disadvantaged segments of society, diminishing resentment, while still ensuring that meritocracy is not completely stripped off in the process.

I agree with you on this. The qouta should not be on basis of ethnicity but on basis of social circumstances like for students studying in village schools or inhabitants of far off areas etc. Neverthless, my father and uncles came from villages, studied in village schools and yet competed with city dwellers from Lahore, Pindi, Islamabad on merit and became engineers, economists, army officers without help of any qouta.
The point here is that a priveleged community considers itself as discriminated against, i don't buy that.

[Khan15]

Why is it that everything in Pakistan has to boil down to who is punjabi and who is “muhajir” and who is not? Is it too difficult for people there to look beyond their parochial interests for the sake of the country they inhabit?

It is one thing if you have a "quota system" for minorities/disadvantaged groups; it is quite another if you have a system where the relatively better off groups are the ones benefiting from such a system. Both "muhajirs" and punjabis come under the latter category so it is amusing that they the ones with an enviable share of quotas reserved for them.

Is it possible to have quotas for Sindhis and Balochis while at least the punjabis and the muhajirs compete on merit? I think it is. After all there is a thing known as affirmative action where the disadvantaged groups receive priority to an extent but other groups do not have a fixed share of seats in colleges/jobs allocated for them in advance. It is win-win situation because it allows upward social mobility for the disadvantaged segments of society, diminishing resentment, while still ensuring that meritocracy is not completely stripped off in the process.

O.K, lets not scrap it, but at least we can reform it. As it stands now, it benefits a certain type of Lahori (the Model Town / Defence lot) who use to it to get jobs in the government, while almost all Urdu-speakers struggle to get anything. I am quite happy for a 20% quota on those who are deprived or belong religious minorities, while 80% should be on merit. It would go someway to reduce the tension in Karachi, and in the long term support for the MQM.

[kakaballi]

.

@Sa1eem

In Pakistan, resident of Karachi (especially Muhajirs whatever language they speak and pre partition residents of Karachi)

How come 'specially Muhajirs'?

In Punjab, these jobs are mostly taken up by residents of Lahore, Gujranwala, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, and to extend Multan (though Multan get discriminated in interview and thus get negligible jobs)....70 percent jobs, are occupied by people from these 4 cities....

Any evidence?

Even if there was no discrimination in interview ... situation is such that if there were 12 federal jobs to be filled using quota than regardless of who can come on merit, according to quota it is possible that there could be 7 candidates from Lahore who would get job (on quota of 50 out of 90 jobs) and 1 from Karachi (on quota of 7.6 out of 90 jobs).

Lahore: 7 jobs Karachi: 1 job

Stupid Statistic.... Lahore <> Punjab. Lahore population 10 mil. Punjab population 92 mil. All jobs go to Lahore?

If I will have time, I would write discrimination that exists in other areas, including allocation of funds, education and health system, against residents of Karachi.

Please do that when you have time

[Population of Karachi alone is more than these 4 Ruling cities (Lahore, Rawalpindi, Faisalabad and Gujranwala) of upper Punjab combined together, has more education, and

Another stupid statistic.

contributes around 70 percent of federal tax collection, still ... Karachi + Hyderabad + Sukkar together have quota of 7.6 jobs only]

Because all cities import goods through Karachi and most of the head offices of major corporations in Pakistan are located in Karachi making it a source of COLLECTION of tax and not GENERATION of tax.

[Khan15]

Yet another lie. I am from Gujranwala and there are lots and lots of meos there. They also have big number in Sargodha, Wazirabad and Kasur all in central punjab. There were nearly 5 million refugees that settled in Punjab and no machinery in the world could have sorted them based upon ethnicity into different areas. On the other hand there were only 1.5 million refugees that settled in Sindh.

India implements qoutas for underprivileged, there are qoutas for scheduled casts, scheduled tribes and dalits.

Icon,

My lot are orignally from Rohtak, (they would love to speak like Lukhnawis!!!), and I can tell from personal experience, that the Shaukat administration tried there hardest to keep the Ambala Division refugees (non-Punjabis like Meos etc from East Punjab) out of the province. Sarah Ansari has written quite a bit on this. But lets not get stuck in history.

I am pretty sure that there are no quotas in the premier institutions in India. May be Queer, Punjabee, Bitto e.t.c can confirm it, but I am sure the IITs are exempt.

[kakaballi]

Re: Quota system-is it justified: split from Karachi blood bath

Faculty quota system prevails in IITs, says Sibal

Quotas are route to inequality at IITs, IIMs - dnaindia.com

[asif86]

@Khan15

Your second point is historically incorrect.** The reason why the Urdu speakers are concentrated in the Seraiki belt** and Sindh is due policies followed by Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan, minister for refugees of the Punjab government. **He made sure East Punjabis were settled in Punjabi ethnic areas, while others sent to Multan or Sindh. **

Your well of the mark here.There are more mohajirs in north and central punjab then in seraiki belt.Lahore has more mohajirs then multan and bahawalpur put together.Infact hyderabad has less mohajirs then lahore.check out the stats before opening your mouth.

Muhajir (Pakistan) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Karachi, Sindh 6,500,000 (identifying themselves as Urdu Speakers)
2. Lahore](Lahore - Wikipedia), Punjab 1,000,000
3. Hyderabad, Sindh 700,000
4. Multan](Multan - Wikipedia), Punjab 225,000
5. Rawalpindi, Punjab 175,000
6. Sukkur, Sindh 150,000
7. Bahawalpur](Bahawalpur - Wikipedia), Punjab 125,000
8. Mirpur Khas, Sindh 125,000
9. Nawabshah, Sindh 100,000
10. Islamabad, Capital Territory 100,000
11. Sanghar, Sindh 75,000

Note: Figures are estimations based on the 1998 census of Pakistan and are rounded up to allow for slight population growth since the time of the report.

[asif86]

Icon,

I am pretty sure that there are no quotas in the premier institutions in India.

wrong there are quotas in india.They have quotas for dalits(untochables),minorities and other caste based reservations.

[diwana]

Re: Quota system-is it justified: split from Karachi blood bath

I think the discussion should not go on to ethnic divide which is futile.

Quota system promotes it and that is a fact.

One question for many people here who are immigrants outside Pakistan.

Will they like the same system outside Pakistan for themselves and be discriminated based on their immigrant status and population, as opposed to get the entry to schools and jobs based on merit?

Yes or No?

[Iconoclast]

I think the discussion should not go on to ethnic divide which is futile.

Quota system promotes it and that is a fact.

One question for many people here who are immigrants outside Pakistan.

Will they like the same system outside Pakistan for themselves and be discriminated based on their immigrant status and population, as opposed to get the entry to schools and jobs based on merit?

Yes or No?

diwana bhai, there are two facets of this issue, one is: people caiming that MQM's support is due to qouta system. It may be partially true, but, atleast its not true at present. Proof is that qouta system issue has not been raised by MQM with its allies PPP,ANP.

Second is, if qouta system should be abolished. Affirmative action for underprivieged has been accepted as norm in many parts of teh world, i feel there is nothin wrong with it. I do agree that it needa major change to ensure that truely underprivileged people get the benefit and not the rich of under privileged areas.

[firenze]

From someone whos father was offered a ticket by MQM to contest elections, i wont expect anything different than what you wrote above.

and he denied it, at least some moral values are left. But i don't see the connection between my post & mqm ticket??

Punjabism is an issue it was before and it is today. And quota system promote discrimination it must be gone !

[Iconoclast]

Re: Quota system-is it justified: split from Karachi blood bath

^Tusi theek ho paa jee

[firenze]

^ mehrbani janab, tuawadi !

[Khan15]

@kakaballi

Faculty quota system prevails in IITs, says Sibal

Quotas are route to inequality at IITs, IIMs - dnaindia.com

Kakey,

If you read carefully, it says Parliament is debating a bill to extend quotas to IITs. So as things stand they are exempt.

As I have said, I am happy with affirmative action, but the not corrupt bankrupt system we have now.

Icon Sahib,

One of the unique aspects of Muhajir nationalism, and a Dutch anthropoligist Verkaik has done a good study, is the deep dislike of the quota system. The MQM mobilised the Muhajirs by there intial opposition to the quota system. So with out understanding the quota, you cannot understand the situation in urban Sindh.

[Khan15]

@asif86

Your well of the mark here.There are more mohajirs in north and central punjab then in seraiki belt.Lahore has more mohajirs then multan and bahawalpur put together.Infact hyderabad has less mohajirs then lahore.check out the stats before opening your mouth.

Muhajir (Pakistan) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Karachi, Sindh 6,500,000 (identifying themselves as Urdu Speakers)
2. Lahore](Lahore - Wikipedia), Punjab 1,000,000
3. Hyderabad, Sindh 700,000
4. Multan](Multan - Wikipedia), Punjab 225,000
5. Rawalpindi, Punjab 175,000
6. Sukkur, Sindh 150,000
7. Bahawalpur](Bahawalpur - Wikipedia), Punjab 125,000
8. Mirpur Khas, Sindh 125,000
9. Nawabshah, Sindh 100,000
10. Islamabad, Capital Territory 100,000
11. Sanghar, Sindh 75,000

Note: Figures are estimations based on the 1998 census of Pakistan and are rounded up to allow for slight population growth since the time of the report.

I doubt the figures for Lahore, as there is tendency among urban Punjabis to claim Urdu as there first language. And secondly, what are the percentages, how much of Lahore is Urdu speaking. I have several relatives in Multan, and Muhajirs occupy distinct neighbourhoods.

As far as I know, Lahore is one of the most homegenous cities in South Asia, so need for Bal Thakray or Shiv Sena like organization. My wife is Lahori Punjabi, of mixed Kashmiri and Arain background. My Susrali tell me even caste wise, its mainly Kashmiri (Butt Mir etc) and Arain (Chaudhary & Mian). Both these castes ape the Muhajir culture, teach there kids Urdu, eat Paan and listen to ghazals. My wife speaks better Urdu then me. I suspect a lot of the Urdu speakers in Lahore belong these communities.

[TheRealDeal]

@Khan15

Both these castes ape the Muhajir culture, teach there kids Urdu, eat Paan and listen to ghazals. My wife speaks better Urdu then me. .

Muhajir ‘culture’??

Pathans, Sindhis, Balochis, Pathans, Punajbis have a long and ancient culture. ‘Muhajirs’ do not.

Chewing paan and speaking Urdu is hardly a ‘culture’.

Do not make Muahjirs look silly by making such immature and unfounded statements

[firenze]

@TheRealDeal

Muhajir ‘culture’??

Pathans, Sindhis, Balochis, Pathans, Punajbis have a long and ancient culture. ‘Muhajirs’ do not.

Chewing paan and speaking Urdu is hardly a ‘culture’.

Do not make Muahjirs look silly by making such immature and unfounded statements

that’s despicable dude, they rightly cry !

[diwana]

diwana bhai, there are two facets of this issue, one is: people caiming that MQM's support is due to qouta system. It may be partially true, but, atleast its not true at present. Proof is that qouta system issue has not been raised by MQM with its allies PPP,ANP.

Second is, if qouta system should be abolished. Affirmative action for underprivieged has been accepted as norm in many parts of teh world, i feel there is nothin wrong with it. I do agree that it needa major change to ensure that truely underprivileged people get the benefit and not the rich of under privileged areas.

I know bhai sahab what you are saying but quota system has nothing to do with underprevildged. (It is based on population) It is a shield which people use to support this unjustified system.

The system should be helping underprevigliged not encouraging it. Lets face it. The system as it is has not helped underpreviliged areas to have sufficient motivation to become better.

Many countries try to get handicapped people deaf/mute/ physically handicapped individuals through some quota and that is fine. These people have no choice and are left behind due to natural causes.

Glad to see you are for a major change.

My question is largely unanswered.