Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
and again, why do you still identify yourself as muslim?
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Aisha(ra) was not a child when she married Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and neither was Ariel Durant when she got married to Will Durant at the age of 13.
Btw like many others in last century my grand-mother was married at the age of 10...does this make my grand-father a pedo?
As I said before humans in past(only a hundred years ago) were not considered as children after the age of puberty(from 9 to 13). The norm has changed very quickly after the secular laws of marrying age and child labour etc, famous inventors like Thomas Edison was working at the age of 12 in trains....today it would be considered as a crime due to child labour law.
Unfortunately, this is the case in most parts of the worlddddddddddddddddd.
gggg
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Janab-e-ali: Its intolerant people like you who have given Islam a bad name - a fundamentalist, who refuses to use their brain, and like a 'parrot' repeat things which have been brainwashed in their mind.
Umbrellas is using her 'GOD" given brain, that makes her a better muslim than you. Moderates in any religion - bring harmony to this world.
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Pedophiles molest their victims, they don't marry them.
Only a 100 years ago people were getting married at early age not only that we had teenage inventors, politicians, intellectuals and admirals(Ever heard of Ferragut, Abraham Lincon and Edison?), its the world controllers who want to keep people dumb by extending the childhood. Childhood ends after the age of seven, after seven you're not a baby but how can you know that?
Society today is not becoming enlightened but dumber and dumber.
I really understand that people are becoming dumber and dumber. We are just artificially increasing the childhood. Fully agree with that. By the time the children( I actually dont know if this is the right term) are seven, they should be married to 50 year olds so that they can start producing children immediately. We can 8 or 9 generations in a single lifetime. A girl can be a grandmother by the time she is 16. Wonderful isnt it.
Seriously which part of the world do you belong to. I am really thankful I do not belong to the same part...
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Let me ask the same questions again which you ignored completely! Is there a problem with an adult man marrying an adult women? Who defines adulthood? You need to tell us why it is bad? Who defined that it is bad? Please give us some logical reasonings instead of repeating some stuff over and over again. Just saying that it is wrong is not a logical or rational answer! According to you, by the law of nature an adult man having sexual relationship with an adult women is a rape? Were you born as a result of rape? If a person has hit puberty then naturally that person is an adult…end of story. The person you define as little girl is not a girl anymore when she hits puberty. This is the law of nature, which you secular people do not seem to get it! As far concerning when a man can have sexual intercourse with his wife: I read a hadith a while ago (cannot find it anymore) in which Prophet (Peace be upon him) said something like do not have intercourse with your wives until they are physically ready for it. Also, it is well known that in Islam a man cannot have intercourse with his wife if it physically harms here, weather she is 10 years old or 50 years old.
The modern society has made this age thing so deceiving for people and like I said before it is funny how they do not even agree with each other. In one country the age of consensus is 12 and in another country it is 18. According to one country, a girl/boy is still little at the age of 14 and it is against the law if anyone has sexual intercourse with him/her, whereas in another country she/he has become an adult. We know that boys hit puberty as early as 13(if i am not wrong). So according to some countries a boy has become an adult even before actually becoming an adult! What kind of non-sense is this? so uberalles which one would you go with? I can even argue that a girl who reached the age of 18 is still young. How many times we do say: “that person died in such young age” for someone who was even 30 years old!
You people first need to resolve this adulthood age thing among yourselves and decide one age before you point figures at us, who are going with the law of nature.
I can pinpoint some basic logical errors but I do not think you have studied logic (just a comment not an insult) so let me put in simple language: please do not add your own interpretations! No one is saying that everyone should do it at the age of seven and the other partner should be 45 years old or whatever. What we are saying is that according to the law of nature a person becomes an adult when he/she hits puberty regardless of age; therefore it is naturally and morally correct if they get married etc. The important factor here is not age but adulthood! Why can’t people like you comprehend a simple thing that marriage is not about age! If two people who are marrying each other do not have a problem who the heck are you to say anything about it! If we were to assume that people do not reach adulthood (naturally) even if they pass the age of 20, what would you have said or done in such case?
** Some more facts and questions for pro pedophilia**
1- The word “pedophilia” was first introduced in 1905-that is like 103 years old and its root words are Greek and two different Greek words put together Source ]
2- The definition of pedophilia:
“a person, especially a man, who is sexually interested in children” (Cambridge International Dictionary)
“The act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children” (The American Heritage Dictionary)
So stop calling Prophet (Peace be upon him) a pedophilia; he was not according to the dictionary. Our beloved mother 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) had become a woman; she was not a child!
3- What if a 45 years old man engage in sexual activities with an 18 years old female or 12 or 14 years old (as they are considered adult in different countries)? Do you consider that as an act of pedophilia? Why or why not?
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
^^There seems to be a very fine line between the 2 and most people nowadays cannot even distinguish the difference.
A good example I can think of is marriage. Islamically, when we are searching for our future spouse, the first criteria we must look for is their deen. Now come on, realistically how often does that happen nowadays? It's more like..."What is he studying" or "How much is he making" as opposed to "How many times a day does he pray" or "Does he recite the Quran on a regular basis."
*Personally, I believe that a guy who loves his deen will love his wife. *
So ladies, choose wisely.
Excellent:biggthumb
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
^People like umbrella never talk about teenage single mothers suffering in the West.
it is sad. But single mothers don't have to suffer, they can get abortion. It's the children who suffer the most but unlike in islamic countries there is much aid given to these mothers in the west. Parenting classes, continuation of education support and financial support etc etc. A woman in Islamic country what does she get if she becomes a single mother? stoning, death, shunning from community. You choose. The evil upon a muslim pregnant teenager who is not married is evil , evil , evil for She truly suffers !!!!!!!
The major difference , in the west a teenage mother has the freedoms to make stupid choices OR smart choices for herself unlike in many muslim countries where the female has no freedoms and stupidity is done to her without consent. Marrry her off at age eight if she bleeds and to breed to some old fart of 45 plus years. What about laughing with friends, education, going on dates, to parties, dancing , .
Childhood is so brief compared to life span its atrocious anyone even attempts to defend this diabolic sin against a little girl. In the old days people bred so they could have many children to be labourers for family support. There was no childhood.
See the laughing teenage girl going off to school , dances and parties and pursuing a dream of going to university and getting a decent job one day and then compare it to the 8 year old girl married to some old bloke , pregnant, cooking , cleaning and nightly being sexually assaulted against her will. Whose life would you choose to have Hareem01? WHich life would you choose for you daughter if you have one?? A nurturing mother who wishes the best for her daughter today would choose which one???????
And we all know the majority of teenage pregnancies in the west are from the low ecomonic socio scale predominately of a certain race where the appeal to keep being a baby mama by several different fathers is acceptable to them as long as the welfare cheque keeps rolling in. But then in the polygamist approved religions you have many immigrant women 'married ' off to the same man and he permits welfare payments for his off spring.
And in todays enlightened , educated society to even defend or excuse an old goat of 45 marrying a child 8 years of age is purely sick. Whether by religious belief or not. Proves one thing religion and religious indoctrination does support criminal conduct in face of acceptable standards of adult versus child.
The rocker Jerry Lee Lewis also married a 13 year old for your information. Either way people concerned for child welfare and child endangerment find these practices of old ignorant societies detrimental and abhorrent and to be abolished and rightly so .
Marrying a child of 10 years is disgusting, and if that was my grandmother I would feel sad , very sad her childhood was stolen instead of glorifying she was sold into marriage at age of 10 . Did she have the absolute maturity to consent with full awareness? What was practiced during period of ignorance and peasant ignorance who had no resources to formal education toward a better life except studying their religion is no excuse for today. No mention how old your grandfather was. Perhaps indeed he is a pedo based on today's rights and welfare of children.
And to another poster: Thanks for the pedophilia definition. So it's okay then for a 45 year old woman to have sex with an 8 year old boy??????
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
I’m a fundamentalist?!? If you knew the first thing about me you’d realize how idiotic and laughable a statement that is.
If you had bothered reading any of my previous posts instead of just jumping on uberalles Islam-bashing bandwagon, you’d realize that I was simply questioning how uberalles reconciles her “Muslim” identity with her beliefs, many of which are fundamentally incompatible with Islam (a fact that she herself has recognized). How in God’s name can someone call themselves a Muslim while believing that the Prophet Mohammed was a pedophile and a pervert, and idolizing some hate-filled idealogue who openly calls for the “defeat of Islam.” I’m sure even you can understand how intellectually dishonest it is for someone to still run around claiming an Islamic identity if they believe all of that. So spare me.
I’m all for open interpretations of the Quran, and the separation of Islam itself from the sexist, authoritarian ideologies favored by many modern day “Islamists.” But it doesn’t take a Syed Qutub to realize the absurdity of allowing virtual atheists like Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali to sit down with the Quran and white-out whatever they see fit, in order to “edit” Islam to their liking. Every religion has basic tenants that must be respected in order to maintain its basic integrity. If you can’t do that, then you should have the courage to reject that belief system outright and find one that better suits you…otherwise you’re just making a fool out of yourself, in much the same way as you did with that asinine post.
Let me also just say how arrogant you must be if you feel you have the right to judge how “good” of a Muslim someone is. I don’t even think Muslims are entitled to do that, but apparently, despite being Hindu, you still feel entitled to do so. Brilliant.
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Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
and again, why do you still identify yourself as muslim?
I like to think i am a progressive , modern, enlightened muslimah who has access to my community with my ears and eyes to ensure mysogyny and other ill practices against women are stopped by whatever means. My parents raised me to be a decent human and people come first no matter what their faith and education is a must and a right for every person. I have no problems aiding my fellow sisters, ensuring she knows what rights she has in a democratic western country and where she can go to safe houses to ensure her rights as a human are guaranteed . I am above all a proponent of women's rights, child rights not only in the muslim community but in the community in general. And as such I have every right to ensure past approved practices which are in conflict with decency and human rights are not promoted against children and women whether approved by religion or not. Proof even religion has much error within afterall it was man who wrote it all down. Mortal man. And we all the know the classic, human's do make mistakes. An intelligent human knows to admit to mistakes and see what is a mistake.
If I knew a young girl was to be removed from school and whisked off to a country for the purpose of marriage you bet your bottom dollar I would promptly call in children's protection services. In a heart beat, any time, any where!!!!
If protecting a child's rights or a woman's rights is Islam bashing then I am a great modern and educated muslimah who wears this badge of honor proudly. But most importantly a good human being firstly above all else. Thank you for the compliment. Inshallah my good friend who bestows to me high honor in those words. My parents are proud.
Please state where did I say the Prophet is a pedophile??? Provide the link. I am referring what was acceptable once in all faiths back then is not an acceptable practice for many reasons today. So simple to keep women suppressed and accuse those who fight for their rights as islam bashing. You are proving my point exactly what is wrong within the faith. Thank you.
As for god/allah/great spirit . Well lets say I am still learning, still questioning and am not absolutely sure which way everything exists or doesn't. But until I find absolute comfort in my learning explorations I will simply state: I do not know 100 percent what exists today unlike the 100 percent when I was a child and had not formulated independent thinking or critical analysis but learned by rote. Repetition only parrots a continuation of wrong doings, questioning identifies wrong doings, speak out against wrong doings is a step toward social progress. And I am not afraid to do so , thank you kindly.
But no matter what I do know for a fact, childhood is so short in time compared to life span. Happiness is a constant pursuit . Children should not have the burdens of adultjhood placed upon them. Learning is a constant pursuit. And free will is a basic right to everyone but without education and critical thinking one simply repeats by rote without using the mind to examine and challenge. Question , question , and question ----its an innate right of the thinking mind, the explorative mind , the curious mind, the investigative mind.
And if you are going to mention authors , don't forget Christopher Hitchens. Interesting to say the least.
Just read the news stories regarding the crazy christian polygamist sect in Texas. Everything that's preverse in name of religion is clearly identifiable within that community. Who suffers today? Indoctrinated women and the poor , poor children. If this does not make you feel sad for them....................
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
And again, you're avoiding the question.
Why do you still identify yourself with a religion whose main Prophet you consider to be so morally bankrupt?
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Peace to Uberalles
I admire your devotion to your cause to protect womens rights and childrens rights.
InshaAllah we should strive to preserve the rights of all entities in balance, so we should not ignore the rights of men either nor of animals nor of the environment I am sure you will agree.
In the vein of supporting the rights of the 'girl' who is 'taken' out of school to marry someone, in order to do justice to your sense of rights would it not be a good thing to first ask the 'girl' if she wanted to get married or not rather than being her decision-maker taking that right away from her?
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
If an eight year old is sexually stimulating to you for a 45 year old male then I can see why you argue as you do . Even to an 18 year old male? If a man of 30 said to you , wow your daughter is hot , she bleed already , if so , I would like to marry her . Pretend you have a daughter of 11 years of age using tampons already. What would your response be? Lets assume he has 100 goats, 1000 head of cattle, 20 acres of land , a big fat gut , long scruffy beard and the breath of an ox and, money in the bank.
???/
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
All i am saying in countries where women are suppressed, ie many muslim countries muslim men force women to wear veil, burqa , etc as its a cultural not a religious thing to wear. And when a muslim women who has been raped seeks help they are shunned from their islamic community or worse. ., Therefore, what happened to these women after they were raped. How many have been disowned, or killed by the male family members to restore the family honor. As honor equates with hyman .
And when muslim men raped hindi or seek women how many suffered after the fact worse situations including death by family members. Great movie , Still Waters, does a good job of explaining what women of all these religions face.
The ones who did not die at the hands of the rapists suffered worse fates afterward. , when a sicko wants to rape he will rape a infant, child, woman , even sheep or camel and what a woman chooses to wear is irrelevant..
A typical post against muslims and islam without backgound thinking whatsoever.
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
^^^^^are you in for a rude awakening about the man who prays five times aday. run baby run or read Hirsi Ali. You would sooner find kindness in an atheist then a onto the ground five times per day.
Even rapists and honor killers pray five times a day. Actually , the most pious are members of the family who will kill you if you come home raped. never heard of a daughter /sister/niece killer for the sake of restoring family honor who did not love his deen way too much
Since when Hirsi Ali became the leader of women?
Many wrong deeds are performed by people of all faith having the appearances of their faith. This does not mean the faith itself is bad.........OK maybe others............but not Islam. Islam teaches all good and nothing but good and people not following Islam are at fault on their own..........nothing wrong with Islam.
I am sure many of us have seen Hindus eating cow meat with a smile and jews eating pig happily. So called muslims are no exceptions.
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Uberalles dear.....................come to reality. Its very peaceful!!!
Please use your energy to 'find' lies about anything but Islam.
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
If an eight year old is sexually stimulating to you for a 45 year old male then I can see why you argue as you do . Even to an 18 year old male? If a man of 30 said to you , wow your daughter is hot , she bleed already , if so , I would like to marry her . Pretend you have a daughter of 11 years of age using tampons already. What would your response be? Lets assume he has 100 goats, 1000 head of cattle, 20 acres of land , a big fat gut , long scruffy beard and the breath of an ox and, money in the bank.
????????????????????????????/
Have you ever met a man like that in your life outsides your wierd fantasy?
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
I like to think i am a progressive , modern, enlightened muslimah who has access to my community with my ears and eyes to ensure mysogyny and other ill practices against women are stopped by whatever means.
Spare us the hero act.
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My parents raised me to be a decent human and people come first no matter what their faith and education is a must and a right for every person.
[/quote]
The implication is that we're indecent?
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Proof even religion has much error within afterall it was man who wrote it all down. Mortal man. And we all the know the classic, human's do make mistakes. An intelligent human knows to admit to mistakes and see what is a mistake.
[/quote]
No it isn't. There's simply no evidence of a "mistake"...it's simply proof that as human societies grow more complex, as our lifespan increases, our expectations upon our children change naturally....moralizing this is nothing but an act of supremacist bigotry. If it had been done in the past, it does not necessarily make it wrong by default...that's an incredibly ignorant position. The fact is, inter-culture, this is dangerously close to the ideology behind the atrocities spawned by European colonialism...the whole bit about taming the savages. Why take up the White Man's Burden, when intuition and common sense alone clearly render certain practices as not practical?
The fact is, neither myself nor perhaps anyone else on this message forum would be comfortable with either a male or female child marrying so early...there's an expectation that education be finished, a work career established, and so on. Those who live a different reality, any sensible and sane person would realize that these expectations would be different.
Why the need to moralize, and use abusive if not supremacist rhetoric? Well, it's done to enforce mores on a societal level, to ensure there is conformity...gasp...did you realize that? Or did all talk of rights and choice and what not cloud you of that fact? If you're going to preach to us, at least understand why...and please do keep this in mind next time you decide to hop on your moral rocking horse.
Is there anything inherently wrong with the act of marrying so young? Obviously not always...because it IS relative. Are people who engage in such practices universally ignorant? Obviously not.
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I am referring what was acceptable once in all faiths back then is not an acceptable practice for many reasons today.
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Intellectual dishonesty...if you use such vitriol in describing those who practiced marrying so young, without qualifying it in any way..then it is a universal condemnation. The implication is there for all to see. I obviously agree with you on the point...but clearly not in the way of expressing it.
And what of those cultures that simply haven't changed to obviate the need for young marriages? Shall we invade and impose our will? Be careful how you answer...unless you do feel might is right...in which case I cede the point, as I have no retort to that kind of thinking.
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Repetition only parrots a continuation of wrong doings, questioning identifies wrong doings, speak out against wrong doings is a step toward social progress. And I am not afraid to do so , thank you kindly.
[/quote]
...you simply have not established any "wrong" doing...if indeed it is wrong, it's on the level of not learning the language of a host country while being a citizen of the country...awkward and strange...and not in any way advisable...but I'd be loathed to moralize against it...
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Is it possible that this so called woman or woman in disguise posts in the state of mind full of hatred and blinded with the effects of irrational thinking?
I believe so.
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
If an eight year old is sexually stimulating to you for a 45 year old male then I can see why you argue as you do . Even to an 18 year old male? If a man of 30 said to you , wow your daughter is hot , she bleed already , if so , I would like to marry her . Pretend you have a daughter of 11 years of age using tampons already. What would your response be? Lets assume he has 100 goats, 1000 head of cattle, 20 acres of land , a big fat gut , long scruffy beard and the breath of an ox and, money in the bank.
????????????????????????????/
I note that you failed to answer any of my questions; you ignored my whole post; you failed to back up any of your statements with sound/logical reasoning and evidences. For someone like you, who is secular, we expect more decent rebuttals and sound reasoning not circular bogus statements. Please go waste your time somewhere else! When you answer my questions and produce a decent rebuttal, then I'll answer your questions and debunk them, insha'Allah! Ignoring other person's arguments, failing to produce any decent rebuttal, ranting about same thing over and over again does not prove anything; it only shows how your arguments are intellectually challenged!
Re: Muslim attitudes towards rape [split: Muslim Women Gang Raped.. ]
Uberalles dear.....................come to reality. Its very peaceful!!! Please use your energy to 'find' lies about anything but Islam.
You want to be find lies elsewhere but in Islam. So you admit lies do exist within islam you just we to turn a blind eye and look elsewhere?
So the most islamic of all countries, Saudi Arabia in your opinion treats women equally? In Somalia ? In parts of Kenya?
Do you deny that islam is not always fare to women : on one hand its states women are equall yet can you honestly say , there are no mysogynisitc views at all with the islamic faith.
How is it my father sees the inequalities women are subjected to? My father is male and muslim. It is not Hirsi Ali who has opened my eyes to how great I have it but my parents. My parents encourage me to study hard, play hard and be independent, self confident and proud. And to question everything, ask , ask , and analyze with critical thinking and not simply repeat by rote.
Is my father wrong? Is my mother wrong? I have stated it has happened also under christian fatihs the subjugation and suppression . Suffragettes in the west fought against mysogyny and it's christian dogma which supported such thinking.
I like to think of myself as an educated , confident muslim suffragette who is spreading the word to all girls you don't have to submitt, and you can be your own person by getting an education above anything else. And then as an informed woman who has seen much, read much , learned much you can matke decision on your own without needing to marry for survival as you will be self sufficient to find a job/career .
Just for your edification , it was my father who bought Hirsi Ali's book a couple years ago and gave it to me to read. She is credible. I have travelled in Africa not long ago and when I came home I read Hirsi Ali's book. There is a lot of truth in what she wrote though personally i have not been to somalia. When I left africa I could think of how lucky I was to live in the west and to have parents and a society which gave me full access to do anyting a man can do. From sports, to education , to artistic and cultural pursuits. And I am promoting this to all women who think its not possible for them.
It's not anti islam to be educated, and be self -determing and self -reliant. A confident woman who has her own choices in life is not an anti muslim sentiment though people use islam to quash her spirit and freedom . The most islamic of all countries Saudi Arabia is perfectly good example of how islam suppresses and subjugates women. Aghanistan perfect example when taliban use Islam to defecate on women. And the tribal mentality of many countries who do same no matter where they live .
And for being a good student and studying hard my reward this year was a motorbike. I am a very fortunate muslimah who has the world at her feet in the west. it would never be the same in Saudi Arabia no matter how much my father disagrees himself with their troglodyte ways. Perhaps a modern Ismail is the better way for women after all, though I know I have heard it, many sects within islam would never consider us really muslims. Envy perhaps, because per capita we are the most successful in the west. I suppose we assimilated to the adopted country instead of self imposed segregaton with old world mentality.
So one can be a happy muslim female without the parochial dogma of 1400 years ago when society consisted primarily of ignorant people and not educated people . A core belief in the values of democracy, pluaralism, human rights, child rights and equal opportunity for both sexes and pro choice is the better way for all.
So , I do feel complimented if a little bit of the bravery of Hirsi Ali is seen within me. Inshallah, I thank you for the compliment and wear it with honor.