Is India turning fascist under Modi?

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

There is this annoying trend amongst certain Pakistanis that whenever they feel compelled to criticise India for its intolerance and hatred, they use the phrase 'both countries' this or that. No, stop equating 'both countries'. They are not same. How hard it is for some Pakistanis to criticise India on its own without dragging Pakistan's name into it and making her look like an equal partner just because Indians are in news? How insecure are they?

Anti Pakistan/Islam hatred is institutionalised in Indian politics, something which is non-existent in Pakistan's political system. Indian politicians stand up in their parliament and spew anti Pakistan hatred dripping with Islamophbia which would put your Mullahs in Pakistan to shame! Yet Pakistanis struggle to call India out on that. They'll be hell bent on establishing that no no Pakistanis are as bad or worse than Indians just to appease a certain lobby.

Go to any Indian newspaper and 95% of comments under any Pakistani or Muslim related news are absolutely vile. Pure filth. You never find such venom against India in any of Pakistani portals or news websites.

If anything some stupid and pathetic Pakistanis join Indian trolls to spit filth on their own Army on websites like Dawn.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

There is little doubt that India IS turning into a fascist state. Frankly a country which butchered Sikhs, Muslims and Christians in successive decades while brutally occupying a Muslim area is nothing but fascist.

Pakistanis, ALL Pakistanis have been killed by terrorist scum. Infact more Muslims than minorities as a percentage have been killed by extremists. Yes we hardly cover ourselves in glory, no doubt about that, but this is a fact that we get demonised while Indians get away scot free while claiming to be a secular utopia.

However saying this, I don't think anyone anywhere here will say all Indians are bad. It'd be a ridiculous statement to make. The Indians I have interacted with have been as selfless as any Pakistani. I don't see anyone saying ''all Indians are xyz'''. Even on GS Niksik, Khattichic etc are Indians and are one of the nicest people I have interacted with. The issue is whether the country is becoming more extreme or not, which they are.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

Religious parties got enough power to bring laws like Huddod Ordinance and its not about forming government at center. If we read Constitution of Pakistan, these religious parties were able to get inserted certain clauses against minorities, which shaped the society we are living today.

As the issue under discussion is treatment of minorities, we should consider our own country and its minorities. From burning of Christian couple to killing of Salman Taseer coupled with glamorising his murderer (his naat CDs sold like hot cake. More popular than Hydrabad's Bomaby Bakery cake). How come we are able to tag other country fascist and defend ours for same treatments met by minorities?

I'm not against secularism and liberalism. I'm against the type of secularism preached by likes of Paracha, which doesn't respect religious sentiments of others. I'm all for secularism when it allows all religious factions exercise their religion and religious sentiments are not mocked at.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

Again comparing incidents in Pakistan which were simply the case of murderers taking laws in their hands with India where hatred, violence, murder and discrimination has blessing of their political parties and hand of their political their workers. BJP workers and MP's links are not getting established with recent lynch mobbing? Same is often the case with Shiv Sena Do you see what you are doing there?

Pakistan never claimed to be secular, it has issues with minority rights because it deliberately tempered with its constitution. But what about India that always claimed to be bastion of secularism and equal rights in South Asia?

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

Don't we know about arrest of Alqaida members from the houses of JI's members (at that time enjoying parliament seats under umbrella of MMA) ?

Rana Sanaullah's links with Lej / Malik Ishaque are not hidden. Didn't he get elected once again after LeJ's acceptance (seena taan ke) of killing innocent Shias / Hazaras?

Aurangzeb Farooqui's poisonous speeches are not a secret for Karachiites. Didn't he get elected in last elections?

Don't these incidents come under your phrase 'hatred, violence, murder and discrimination has blessing of their political parties and their workers'?

I'm not saying what is happening in India is not condemnable and is not against their claim of being secular. My point is, if they are fascist (growing fascist), we as a society / nation are also giving them tough competition (If not ahead than not far behind).

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

All the incidents you mentioned have been condemned by everyone I know and also on GS. So why should we not condemn when the same happens in India or is India special case? We have discussed these incidents in detail in PA, nowhere did anyone come and post that we should not condemn such incidents because it also happens in India, so why do we become defensive and start condemning Pakistan and defending India when it happens there and is discussed.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

Where did I say that this should not be condemned? Neither I’m taking sides of those who are involved in this incident.

I agree that we all condemned those incidents including on GS. We also criticized Indians for electing Modi as PM / or getting nominated/selected for Times man of the year awar

Just go through my posts in this thread:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/general/650338-times-person-modi.html

My only problem here is generalisation of whole country (in the presence of voices against Modi’s policy) as fascist. We are not calling people involved in the incident or BJP as fascist, we are extending it to whole of India.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

You should ask this question of Indians who call the whole nation as terrorists because a certain element (TTP) carries out terror activities. Also ask them why innocent people visiting India cannot get hotel rooms in secular Mumbai when they had nothing to do with what some terrorists did. if they are going to behave in this manner than we are going to pay them with the same coin. I have always said that both countries need to focus on important matters within their own borders but India has to learn that it has to be on equal terms. We are not going to bow before them and that is what hurts their ego. With that sort of attitude they can get stuffed. If they dont want us to generalise than they need to stop as well.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

No we as a nation are not as bad as India, we are gradually and successfully trying to get out of what India is rapidly falling into. Do you see the point?

Your whole comparison of India and Pakistan is shoddy and clutching on straws. In regards to Afghan Jihad, JI's link with AQ or any other extremist organisation is hardly a surprise. Pakistan as a state had been so lax on so many things, no one can deny that. For instance, no party in India would have survived another day had their funding and training links were established with ISI- and look at the level of tolerance and acceptance still shown to MQM in Pakistan. Do you see this? Pakistani 'intellectuals' spewing venom against their own Army and then getting awards in Bengladesh is vehemently defended in some quarters. Indians would not have tolerated this.

In regards to Rana Sanaullah - who is to say he was elected by the people considering the whole doubt on the validity and reliability of 2013 elections, and in fact all Pakistani elections! Religious parties were also known for forcing people to vote for them whereas India always claimed to have much fairer democratic system than Pakistan. So how do they explain the ever lasting power and influence of Shiv Sena, rise of Hindutava and Modi becoming PM?

You have conveniently implied that minorities in Pakistan suffer the same fate as minorities in India. Firstly, it is incorrect, secondly, in actual fact Muslims (and in particular Sunnis) had been the biggest victims religiously motivated violence and terror.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

So, if Indians made a mistake by generalising Pakistanis as terrorists (which we Pakistanis neither liked nor accepted), the only option we got is to term the whole nation as fascist based on incidents like this?

I wish it comes true one day (as far as our coming out of this garbage is concerned), but currently its a wishful thinking (that we will come out from this and others will be drowned).

I don't want to address other points in your post as:

(i) They have been discussed between us for many times and we have severe disagreement on them.

(ii) The statements like status of minorities in Pakistan is subjective. You consider it better than India, I don't think so. For me we got bigger baggage, as India got only secular charter, we got religious duty to defend minorities as per our religious teaching (which we consider divine). Instead of divine teachings, our treatment of minorities (including different sects) is not satisfactory and devoid of any tolerance.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

No you just conveniently pick and choose when you want to be a cynic and a pessimist, and take pleasure in generalisations and smear campaigns. The kind of benefit of doubt you are so defensively extending to India cannot be expected from you when it comes to Pakistan despite knowing the successful operation against terrorists and violent organisations all over Pakistan? Right?

So Pakistan hasn't made zero progress in regards to curbing terrorism and extremism? What about the crackdown on extremist organisations? Ban on hate speeches? What about increased minority job quota in KPK? There is no increased awareness and yearning for a fairer society? What about the staggering reduction in targeted hate crimes? SC's ruling against Blasphemy laws/Qadri? Pakistan as a state hasn't prosecuted a single accused in blasphemy case. If the state was intolerant and bigoted, then it would have easily wiped out communities through a system.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

*******s

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

You keep turning the other cheek all the time they will walk all over you. They want to dismember Pakistan, their ultimate goal, which thanks to nuclear they have not been able to. As for us calling them fascists we did not elect a fascist as their PM, they did which reflects their thinking. We are more happy electing corrupt to core people as PM and presidents. That is the difference. People call us a corrupt nation because of the leaders we elect, the same applies to them. They dont like it, than they should elect a sane person as PM.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

Do not pull the religious card to dilute and dismiss India's so called secular credentials which they have falsely milked on all levels at Pakistan's expense. Your above post is typical playing with sentimentalities, pull the Islam card whenever it suits you.

You may not know but when a state claims to be secular, it means some pretty damn seriousness and real implications! Pakistan on the other hand is not even a proper Islamic state!

Our religious duty also tells us to take strict action against corruption, poverty, hunger, injustice, where is the moral jihad against that? So let's keep Islam out of this, and talk about ground realities.

You are unnecessarily getting so defensive in regards to India, and just want to paint Pakistan as equally monstrous in order to avoid direct criticism on India in absolute terms for their rising intolerance, bigotry and Hindu extremism.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

So if I post a video of some guy getting abused and label it "True face of Pakistan", will it make sense to most of you? That is all I want to know. What is the purpose of this thread? Where is the explanation of what is happening in the video and what does this discussion have to do with the video itself? I don't get it so help me understand.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

The mahajir complex is still there.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

"Go to any Indian newspaper and 95% of comments under any Pakistani or Muslim related news are absolutely vile. Pure filth."

While you are exaggerating, why not make it an even 100%?

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

I wish these all efforts sustain and really change our society for the better. But this is all due to actions taken by authorities. Its 'danda' that is working for the time, otherwise, the picture was gruesome just 5-6 months back. I wish we have a peaceful Muharram this time, as there are already news for killing of Shias in different parts of Karachi. The hatred sown and supported by different quarters will not go away that soon. One can just hope for the better.

Regarding giving benefit to India, I believe introspection rather than getting excited about the crimes committed in other countries and just catch an opportunity to through terms 'fascist', 'haters' for that country just for setting the score.

I'll comment and bring Islam for minorities rights in Pakistan as it is the charter we follow. Call it some card, sentimens or whatever. I think its better using religious card for educating ourselves about minority rights provided by Islam than the actions of religious scholars who use religion as a card to instigate violence.

Well said.

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

[QUOTE]

Regarding giving benefit to India, I believe introspection rather than getting excited about the crimes committed in other countries and just catch an opportunity to through terms 'fascist', 'haters' for that country just for setting the score. .
[/QUOTE]

The point is simple - certain types of Indians avoid direct and absolute criticism of their country's malicious intolerance and pseudo secularism by needlessly shaming Pakistan as diversion. Similarly their Pakistani counterparts too avoid any direct and absolute criticism on India by needlessly thrashing Pakistan for diversion purposes. Why can't India be put on spot for its own evil deeds without insecure souls dragging Pakistan's name into it and changing the whole topic all together. Why do they do this?

Certain stupid, lame and complex ridden quarters in Pakistan also tried to dampen the Defence Day spirit because they did not like a sense of celebration of victory against India! The agenda is unmistakable. After a while, expect Pakistanis to get sick of likes of Asma Jahangir and her ilk, and their typical turning the other cheek mentality and spinelessly apologetic behaviour where you just cannot stand sticking up for their country against growing Indian hostilities.

For your information, two Muslim youth had been brutally beaten by Indian police and told to go 'back to Pakistan' in Mumbai today. Can you condemn this barbarity in India in absolute terms without really beating around the bush about how equally monstrous Pakistan is (no it is not) to neutralise all the fascist activities in India?

[QUOTE]
I'll comment and bring Islam for minorities rights in Pakistan as it is the charter we follow. Call it some card, sentimens or whatever. I think its better using religious card for educating ourselves about minority rights provided by Islam than the actions of religious scholars who use religion as a card to instigate violence.

[/QUOTE]

That's the problem. Everyone in Pakistan pulls the 'feel good' religious cards whenever it suits them. They simply pull the religious card to play with sentimentalities. This feel good practice of dragging religion whenever it suits an agenda had caused more harm than good. All religious card pullers are as bad as each other - they all think they are doing their religion a great service. Anyway, Islamic charter of Pakistan has clear instruction on injustice and corruption too!

India'a treatment of its minorities with so called secular credentials has been far worse than Pakistan the state that deliberately tempered with religious extremism.

Read a thing or two about Barbari Masjid attack, Gujrat riots, Kashmir, Golden Temple attack, 22 Churches destroyed in Gujrat in 1997, history of attacks on Christians in the Southern States, mass Hindu conversion of Muslims and Christians by RSS. What about their treatment of Dalits?

These aren't random mob taking laws in their hands - most of them are state sponsored attacks. Is Pakistan state's treatment of its tiny minority really as bad India's continuous attacks on its large minority population (one which is almost the size of Pakistan)?

So can you call India out of its vile hypocrisy without beating around the bush for Pakistan?

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Re: Is India turning fascist under Modi?

I don't think it's a 'random' video, it fits in with the recent phenomena of surge in violence and hate emerging from the cow ban because if you listen to the video carefully the mob asks the man something about owning/transporting the cow. OP was probably feeling lazy and couldn't post 150 different articles on this topic, and found one viral video to sum up the growing rate of Hindu extremist violence in India.