Such debates are very important. When we paint our prophet into some magical being, we stop non-muslims from seeking our religion as a true religion. When people who know that truth cannot be in flying gods and angels playing harps turn toward islam, they see another super human who has no shadow and see in all directions, and have knowledge of ghaib, and still alive in his grave. They turn away from this deen because it appears as the same mumbo jumbo that is plenty out there. We probably dont have the idea of how much of dis-service to Islam we are providing by painting our human prophet as an avatar of God.
I was not questioning your purpose of providing the link. We all know that there are a lot weak hadith and many that were deemed fabricated by vast majority of scholars of ahadith but are still being used by some to enhance their sect’s position.
Many will be doing by this in sincerity believing the suspect hadith to be correct but this doesn’t make it right.
Great scholars from first three generations have done magnificent job of classifying ahadith. But then every sect or school of thought will re-interpret (should be read as misinterpret) hadith to suit requirements of its dogma.
Case in point Read Post 53 by** brother Vroom **– He is desperately dismantling the hadith to fit in within his beliefs!
Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (ra) warned Muslims not exaggerate love from him
*With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.
Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.* Nahjul Balaagha/sermons 126
Do Shias heed to his warnings? Their actions confirm that they do not do so.
And those who don’t follow their example they accuse them of having “Hatred for Ali”
The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) warned Muslims not to exaggerate in praise of him.
*The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Messenger.” *(Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 3261)
Do Barelvis heed to his warnings? Their actions confirm that they do not do so.
And those who don’t follow their example they accuse them of being “Disrespectful to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).”
The Prophet (peace an blessings be upon him) said in a saheeh hadeeth: “The best of mankind are my generation (or my century), then those who come after them, then those who come after them. Then there will come a people who will not care if their testimony comes before their oath or vice versa (i.e., they will not take such matter seriously).” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, Muslim and al-Tirmidhi).
I think the scholars of first three generations had covered all subject areas of Islam, the later scholars only enhanced understanding of Islamic principles to people of their own generations.
As human tendency is some follow their own interpretations thus creating more sects.
I agree with you that love and respect for the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is a must for every Muslim without any conditions and must pay heed to his teachings.
The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has the highest standing/rank in the creation of Allah Almighty – Not having a shadow would wouldn’t enhance it and having a shadow wouldn’t lower it.
Every human will have a shadow when in light. It is unique for a person not to have a shadow.
All the qualities and habits of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) are well documented.
We know how he prayed, walked, smiled, showed annoyance, slept, ate food etc
If the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not have a shadow it would have been a common knowledge among his Companions (may Allah Almighty be pleased with them all).
Mushrikeen of Makkah would have used it against him to scare off people from meeting and interacting with him claiming that he is possessed by spirits.
Nothing of this is authentically documented in ahadith, Seerah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) or history books.
I totally agree with you that one should never hold on rigidly on position, unless of course the issue is clear-cut, and should be open to take on and ponder on new evidences or material one comes across.
right, and that is an answer to my post! More like a switching of subjects to barelvis
**The position of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam being Shadowless is a valid position, and one which all Muslims will respect
**
Not quiet, the person I was replying to wanted to discuss the hadiths - how to interpret - so i laid out a brainstorming exercise that we could use to discuss.
The same was done for you:
"…There is no Shadow at Midday, so it must be interpreted
Mohsin khan has even included this point as part of his translation of the Quran:
Have you not seen how your Lord spread the shadow. If He willed, He could have made it still - But We have made the sun its guide (i.e. after the sunrise, the shadow shrinks and vanishes at midnoon and then again appears in the afternoon with the decline of the sun, and had there been no sunlight, there would have been no shadow). Al-Furqan 45
The hadith must mean the outline of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam,
If this is half valid it means it is a proof for the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam Not having a Shadow, since the midday is prominently mentioned. Remember two of the hadiths sighted mention no shadow on the floor, specifically floor
This particular hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad could, could, even be proof for the belief depending on some specifics that we do not know. Its certainly not a straight forward rebuttal of the belief .."
I agree that these discussions are important, but there are necessary discussions to be had before these ones … discussions that enable us to understand what is shirk and what is not shirk. I have a lot of concern with the manner in which your post presents the opposite argument as being classed in your parallels - a parallel that is not true.
Point 1: “When we paint our prophet into some magical being …” The topic of magic is harder than you may realise to determine. Firstly, magic as a phenomenon is supported by Islam. When you say magical being it seems you mean it in the sense of fairytale, Disney and Marvel Comics type of magic. However, we have miracles supported in core Islamic beliefs which are hard to distinguish from such “magical ideas”. My point being some atheists will see the very idea of God and angels as being magical …
**Point 2: **Our purpose is not to convert people, but to present Islam in our being. It means to be sincere and to be helpful and to guide. I don’t see anything like being alive in the grave, knowledge of ghaib or seeing in all directions or having no shadow as being in any way attributing Deity let alone being a source to make people turn away from Islam. I imagined our dear Prophet (SAW) with no shadow in a way that I saw instead of darkness a light where his shadow would be. That scene makes me endear to him (SAW). It is not a rationalism for worship.
Anything that is created, has form, is born and dies and eats and relieves … has limitations - the accusation of shirk to people who hold traditional understandings of Islam is not valid. It is merely an accusation. I fear that you are only presenting a modern form of understanding … and there are years of legacy writings that speak the reverse of your position. These other ideas are actively being stopped and I can see it first hand in the middle east. So I am worried that true scholarly work is not going to be available for much longer - in the past the scholars merely classified narrations as weak and fabricated … in this day and age they are being removed from the historical record. That is a dangerous process. Just like historical architecture the academic fabric is being attacked - no longer are we allowed to make up our own minds - but the very concepts of allowing other opinions to be entertained is being compromised.
Mumbo Jumbo is said when something is unfamiliar or misunderstood … Yes there is a lot if it out there … but unless careful study has taken place - can you honestly say you are right? I mean is it sincerity when claims are made without careful study?
Let’s take the issue of if the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) had a shadow in the sun and/or moon or not. I do not know of any authentic Hadith which makes mention of this. However, one must remember that the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) had many Miracles. Miracles which went beyond not having a shadow.
Some scholars have mentioned this in the books of Seerah that he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not have a shadow.
قال البهوتي الحنبلي في “كشاف القناع”: لم يكن له صلى الله عليه وسلم فيء أي ظل في الشمس والقمر، لأنه نوراني، والظل نوع ظلمة.. ويشهد له أنه سأل الله تعالى أن يجعل في جميع أعضائه وجهاته نورا، وختم بقوله:
**البهوتي **for example, who was a Hanbali was of the opinion that the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not have a shadow. His reasoning is that he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) had a Noorani characteristic and shadow is a category of darkness. And he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) asked Allah that He put Noor in all of his (sallalaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) limbs. We have the following Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhaari
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
One night I slept at the house of Maimuna. The Prophet (ﷺ) woke up, answered the call of nature, washed his face and hands, and then slept. He got up (late at night), went to a water skin, opened the mouth thereof and performed ablution not using much water, yet he washed all the parts properly and then offered the prayer. I got up and straightened my back in order that the Prophet (ﷺ) might not feel that I was watching him, and then I performed the ablution, and when he got up to offer the prayer, I stood on his left. He caught hold of my ear and brought me over to his right side. He offered thirteen rakat in all and then lay down and slept till he started blowing out his breath as he used to do when he slept. In the meantime Bilal informed the Prophet (ﷺ) of the approaching time for the (Fajr) prayer, and the Prophet offered the Fajr (Morning) prayer without performing new ablution. He used to say in his invocation, ***Allahumma ijal fi qalbi nuran wa fi basari nuran, wa fi sami nuran, waan yamini nuran, waan yasari nuran, wa fawqi nuran, wa tahti nuran, wa amami nuran, wa khalfi nuran, wajal li nuran." Kuraib (a sub narrator) said, “I have forgotten seven other words, (which the Prophet (ﷺ) mentioned in this invocation). I met a man from the offspring of Al-`Abbas and he narrated those seven things to me, mentioning, ‘(Let there be light in) my nerves, my flesh, my blood, my hair and my body,’ and he also mentioned two other things.”***
[Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith No. 6316]
But this is the opinion of **البهوتي الحنبلي **
There are other scholars who contend that since we do not have any authentic Hadith specically addressing the issue we can’t say he (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not have a shadow.
Some of the Prophet’s Companions were given to see this light as even brighter than both the sun and moon, for when they walked with him they noticed that he cast no shadow on the ground.[10. al-Hakim al-Tirmidhi]
Those who saw him in the full moon noticed that his blessed face was brighter than the moon,[11. Tirmidhi]
and one of his Companions, the Lady Rubayyi‘, when asked to describe him, said, “My son, had you seen him, you would have seen the sun shining.”[12. Tirmidhi]
The light of the Prophet shone at all levels, it filled the material, intermediary, and spiritual worlds, dispelled the darkness of ignorance and disbelief, and is destined to shine across the ages till the end of time.
That this light was physical as well as spiritual was borne witness to most amply by those who saw him. The Lady ‘A‘isha related how she saw the whole room fill with light one night, then it disappeared, while the Prophet continued to call upon his Lord.
Then the room was filled with a more powerful light which disappeared after a while. She asked, “What is this light I saw?” he said, “Did you see it. O ‘A‘isha?” “Yes!” she replied. He said, “I asked my Lord to grant me my nation, so He gave me one third of them, so I praised and thanked Him. Then I asked him for the rest, so He gave me the second third, so I praised and thanked Him. Then I asked Him for the third third, so He gave it to me, so I praised and thanked Him.” She said that had she wished to pick up mustard seeds from the floor by this light she could have.[13. Abu Nu’aym in Hilia.]
In the famous description of Hind ibn Abi Hala, the Prophet’s stepson from the Lady Khadija, “He was dignified and awe inspiring, radiant like the radiance of the moon on the night it is full…”[14. Tirmidhi in Shama’il, Bayhaqi, Tabarani, and ibn Sa’d.]
Ibn ‘Abbas described how he saw light shining from between his front teeth.[15. Tirmidhi in Shama’il, Darimi, Bayhaqi, Tabarani, and ibn Asakir.]
Abu Qursafa, as a boy, went to swear allegiance to the Prophet, together with his mother and her sister. When they returned home they told him, " My son, we have never seen the like of this man, nor anyone better looking, cleaner dressed, or gentler in his speech; and we saw as if light came out of his mouth." [16. Tabarani.]
Having said what I said in my previous post I would like to bring the attention of the readers to the following Hadith. These Hadith have clear mention of the shadow of the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam). They are long Hadith and I do not have time to translate them but I have highlighted in blue the part of which makes mention of his (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) shadow.
أنا أبو طاهر نا أبو بكر نا بحر بن نصر بن سابق الخولاني نا ابن وهب حدثني معاوية بن صالح عن عيسى بن عاصم عن زر بن حبيش عن أنس بن مالك قال : صلينا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم صلاة الصبح قال : فبينما هو في الصلاة مد يده ثم أخرها فلما فرغ من الصلاة قلنا يا رسول الله صنعت في صلاتك هذه ما لم تصنع في صلاة قبلها قال إني رأيت الجنة قد عرضت علي ورأيت فيها قطوفها دانية حبها كالدباء فأردت أن أتناول منها فأوحى إليها أن استأخري فاستأخرت ثم عرضت علي النار بيني وبينكم حتى **رأيت ظلي وظلكم **فأومأت إليكم أن استأخروا فأوحى إلي أن أقرهم فإنك أسلمت وأسلموا وهاجرت وهاجروا وجاهدت وجاهدوا فلم أر لي عليكم فضلا إلا بالنبوة
قال الأعظمي : إسناده صحيح
صحيح ابن خزيمة 2/ 50]
You raised a point about the kuffar seeing the holy prophet (SAW) as a normal man and had they seen him without shadow they would have certainly raised a fuss over it.
However, my Shaykh said to us in a lesson he was giving one day that RasoolAllah (SAW) was like a polished mirror. People saw in him (SAW) their own state.
So it could be the light from RasoolAllah (SAW) and the shadowless state may have been something that only the mu’minoon saw. Allahu’alim …
So hazrat umar probably saw a prophet with shadow till morning, and in the evening when he converted, all of a sudden prophet became shadowless for him?
Figuring out munafiqeen would not be a problem then, which was such a huge challenge for the prophet himself. All prophet had to do was to approach the person from his back, and if person sees the shadow and turn around, he would be a munafiq, otherwise a momin.
BTW, ask your shaikh, how Hazrat Abu Talib used to see prophet? Did prophet appear shadowless to him?
Brother psyah, you are otherwise such a logical and rational person. Just because your shaykh said something, is it obligatory on you to believe it without cross checking the facts?
This is a challenge that my parents always identified to me when they discussed deen/shaykhs…relinquishing your own ability to understand the verses of the quran in favour of a Shaykh whose own words could be left for poetic interpretation…so much room for confusion!
In my own mind the statement from the Shaykh could mean nothing more than this:
If you were of pure heart and mind then you would see huzoor s.a.w. as such and if you were far from the righteous path then you would not see his piety and you would turn away as the kuffar did.
Respected brother pysah is a scholarly person and is careful and cautious before he commits himself to write and I have noted that he weighs the matter and tries to take on board what has been stated by others.
Tacitly you have agreed that the site is Barelvi – but doesn’t meet up to your standard.
On this board you have proudly labelled yourself as a staunch Barelvi.
I’ll tell you what I am not. I am not a Barelvi (highly influenced by Shiaism easily excitable and intolerant) and neither a Salafi (very rigid a bit of arrogance and intolerant)
The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) pronounced a firm warning, “Never be extreme regarding religion. Many nations have been destroyed before you only because of extremism in religion.” (Nisaai; Ibn Majah)
The latest group that sprang was Barelvism less than a century ago!
Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi Born: 14 june 1856 AD or 10 Shawwal 1272 AH in Muhallah Jasoli Bareilly, UP - Died: 28 October 1921 AD or 25 Safar 1340 AH in Bareilly, UP
No shadow at Midday? This is only possible it there is no Sun (cloudy day)!
Please try this. Go out in the sun at Midday and look under your feet – Lo! You will see your shadow. If you want experiment a bit further, lift one of your legs and move it about and you’ll be amazed to see your shadow responding to your actions.
Mohsin khan has even included this point as part of his translation of the Quran:
Have you not seen how your Lord spread the shadow. If He willed, He could have made it still - But We have made the sun its guide (i.e. after the sunrise, the shadow shrinks and vanishes at midnoon and then again appears in the afternoon with the decline of the sun, and had there been no sunlight, there would have been no shadow). Al-Furqan 45
I wish you would follow Mohsin Khan in other matters too as you do here in this matter. (Mind you, he has put that in brackets – not part of the translation)
See the link below - it has all translation of the said ayah
From the same site I have got the translation of Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)
'O beloved! Have you not seen your Lord that how He has spread the shadow? And if He had willed, He would have made it stationary, then We have made the sun guide over it.
No mention of shadow disappearing in Midday, right?
Funny enough the site has** Mohsin khan & Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)** under the following category!
Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works
The hadith is simple and straightforward – take it as it is.
So what if midday is mentioned? If the sun was out the shadow has to be there.
Shadows always fall on the ground unless the sun is at an angle so the shadow will fall on the wall for instance if one is standing next to it.
If some specifics of hadith are not known to you, why then are you speculating to its meaning and twisting it to your agenda?
Which calendar do you use at present time in your daily life?
The Hejirah date starts from 622 AD – All you got to do is to minus 622 from the dates given and your will arrive at approximate hejirah date. This will show you that these scholars are far away for first three generations! I have done it for you, does it make them nearer to the first three generations! NO!
Qadi Iyad ibn Musa (1083–1149) 461AH 527AH
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (1207 – 17 December 1273) 585 – 651AH
Shihab al-Din Abu’l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Qastallani 1448 – 1517 = 826 – 895AH
Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi also known as Al Muhaddith Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehlavi was born in 1551 = 929AH
I did not make Imam Abu Hanifah (rahmullah) specific – but all his contemporaries or thereabouts.
You are wrong. The Mushrikeen could see the miracles around them but denied them as sheer magic or witchcraft.
They challenged the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to split the moon. They saw the splitting of the moon and yet denied it. Claiming it was magic!
There is incidence when Abu Jahal who always eager to outwit hid some pebbles in his fists and challenged the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to tell him what he was holding in his hands.
The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) replied: “I will better than that. The things that you are holding in your hands will tell you about me”!
Everyone within the earshot heard loud and clear the voice coming from the clenched fists of Abu Jahal: “You are Muhammad the Messenger of Allah”
Abu Jahal threw the pebbles aside and hurried off shouting. “Sheer magic”
Please don’t ask me for reference as I read this long time ago.
Most of the Mushrikeen of Makkah did not remain deaf dumb and blind for long, most of them become Muslims. Many Islamic heroes are from this lot.
Guidance is from Allah Almighty only.
This only proves that you are not very observant person. Or you are too occupied mentally thinking how to respond to the posts here or wherever you post.
Earlier you had stated the following:
Please can enlighten us what exactly you mean when you say “He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Nur of Allah”
My Shaykh does not make things up … He is a classical erudite scholar and has ijazas from many scholars. Acknowledged by even Wahabis for having committed to memory many ahadith and their isnad.
Regarding the questions you raise they are only questions and pose no concern and shouldn’t to the subject matter. Had you known the context of why I mentioned the polished mirror … Perhaps you might not have said what you said in a manner that is far from suitable for this subject matter.
With respect I don’t suffer from the problem that you mention. Such issues are prevalent in people who have no or little worldly education. I consider myself humbly a scientist and philosopher … It would be against my programming not to question … Rather I try to find solutions to problems … I don’t merely stop at asking questions.
Rather I believe the opposite is true … That people are so affected by modernity they are believing less and less in miracles and finding scientific understandings in all matters and choose to reject the wonderous and amazing.
Your interpretation of my Shaykh is correct, but it does not negate the other position in fact they complement each other.
So far my understanding is leading me to conclude that RasoolAllah (SAW) did have a shadow like any normal entity with form. However, at certain times when you would expect a shadow to be present, he was noted for not having a shadow. Just as the ahadith indicate the light levels from his person would alter likewise it is possible that so would his shadow not always be present. I have no reason to disbelieve that either are not from his (SAW) miracles.
The matter of the shadow may not be always true or always untrue and by holding such a position no Hadith needs to be rejected.
In terms of the OP … It appears it is unlikely that RasoolAllah’s (SAW) shadow was never cast … But it is based on evidence to suggest that at times it should have been there but wasn’t. Literally speaking the Urdu says cast on the floor … But I feel that is just an Urdu rendition and really has nothing to do with floor’s anyway.
sorry psyah bhai…my comment was not meant as an attack on you, rather it was posted because your statement about your shaykh and TLK’s subsequent post reminded me of what my parents taught.
on the second part…I have no issues with accepting miracles, in fact I find them to be very useful when it comes to generating hope. what I do not appreciate is the “glorification” of our prophet pbuh beyond those qualities and experiences that Allah swt has blessed upon him.
and yes, you are right, my interpretation was not meant to negate the other position. I intended to offer an alternative and much simpler option to illustrate how extreme interpretations can impact a statement.
Well for one you said you believed the shadow did appear like normal, yet these Hadiths say it did not
“The shadow of the Prophet [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] could not be seen in the brightness of the sun, nor in moonlight”.
"The Messenger of Allah had no shadow, not while standing in the sun, but the brilliance of his light (nur) surpassed the rays of the sun; nor while sitting before a burning light, but his luminous light excelled the lustre of the light".
“Allah Almighty does not let your shadow fall on the ground, so that no foot of man can fall on it”
“This is also a unique feature of the Prophet [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] that his shadow did not touch the ground, because he was light (*nur), and when he used to walk in the sunshine his shadow could not be seen.”
*The Urdu was closer to these narrations?]
and the scholars have not said ‘‘sometimes’’ either, there is something that we are missing or have gained.
So we are forced to interpret the Hadith that refer to him (SAW) having a shadow right? Or can it be said that a shadow was present in very rare circumstances?
One of the references that states the shadow of RasoolAllah (SAW) does so through a vision of RasoolAllah (SAW) narrated by him himself … The other narrations of there not being a shadow are describing him, but from the narrator’s perspective not really his own words, which could mean they are narrating perspective rather than scientific reality.
No not forced but it makes sense to, quiet clearly it didn’t stop the scholars from making the affirming statements that they did
Two of the accounts specifically mention the ground, I would say we have no information to confirm a shadow of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam ever cast on the ground. So imo No we shouldn’t affirm that it ever did on the ground, what do you think?
The specific stipulation of the ground is interesting, meaning on other then the ground we could say ‘‘maybe’’ and then we go back to the narration of Umm Ul Momineen, if the incident:
affirmed a shadow on the ground - it means it was not a permanent virtue, and other possibilities
showed an outline of The Body of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam - means it was not a shadow the like of which we are talking about
a reflection or shadow was cast onto a pardah, like the privacy sheets acting as doors and room separators - then: a) shadow did appear on surfaces other then the ground, b) it was a reflection of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam that was called a shadow but it was unique to RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, it was actually a unique reflection, a reflection of radiance!
That’s not relevant here because that’s a vision of hellfire, and something specific to that location in them circumstances
Its early opinion/history that is accepted. Since its accepted and emulated by the community - we should follow them - Allah Most High’s help is with the great majority and the Ummah will never unite on misguidance ?
.