Can someone please substantiate/confirm

[TLK]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@Ali_Syed

Is the debate of the prophet not having a shadow relevant to Noor/bashar?

Yes sir, it is

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@Muzna

I’m sorry but there is nothing that I can find on that link that provides “authentic” hadiths.

Our respective hadith authentication processes are different. The hadiths are authenticated or accepted rather then being authentic by appearing in a particular book. Also the number of books and oral transmission for us is wider, rather then for you or the person or style you are influenced by who may limit the books To say Bukhari and Muslim as an example
Do you have an idea about what you would consider authentic? The reason i ask is since i might see if something matching that description can be found

What I could read and understand from there simply shows a translation of verses that has obviously been contorted to support a specific school of thought.
That information will never be accepted by the majority of alims.

Please highlight the Verses that have been concocted

The position i hold is the position of the majority of Alims, and those links represent this Majority. Its not going to be majority in the future but it has been majority in the past

[Muzna]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@vroom

Our respective hadith authentication processes are different. The hadiths are authenticated or accepted rather then being authentic by appearing in a particular book. Also the number of books and oral transmission for us is wider, rather then for you or the person or style you are influenced by who may limit the books To say Bukhari and Muslim as an example
Do you have an idea about what you would consider authentic? The reason i ask is since i might see if something matching that description can be found

**Please highlight the Verses that have been concocted **

The position i hold is the position of the majority of Alims, and those links represent this Majority. Its not going to be majority in the future but it has been majority in the past

I never said “concocted”…
I said, “contorted”.

Big difference.

I’m not an authority…but from what I have often seen, as enlightenment grows and education spreads, old beliefs become antiquated and replaced with the truth. Perhaps that’s where we are headed and yes, you will no longer be in the majority then.

[TLK]

What I love about my religion is that it’s a religion of humans, for the humans by the human. Its a religion where the messenger was just like us. He had biological needs, he bled when he had rocks thrown at him, he used to eat, sleep and go to bathroom like normal people. That is the messenger whom people could relate with and follow.

And here are some who is converting him into a mythical creature who had eyes on the back of his head, fragrant sweat, glowing body, and medicinal saliva. You could be impressed by such person, but could never relate to him. If you can’t relate, you can’t follow. You would not get up for tahajjud, because oh yes Muhammed saw could do that because he was a super human. We can’t. Same will go with all ibadat and taqwa, and you will be left with urs, milad, naat khawani kind of stuff.

[Muzna]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@TLK

What I love about my religion is that it’s a religion of humans, for the humans by the human. Its a religion where the messenger was just like us. He had biological needs, he bled when he had rocks thrown at him, he used to eat, sleep and go to bathroom like normal people. That is the messenger whom people could relate with and follow.

And here are some who is converting him into a mythical creature who had eyes on the back of his head, fragrant sweat, glowing body, and medicinal saliva. You could be impressed by such person, but could never relate to him. **If you can’t relate, you can’t follow. **You would not get up for tahajjud, because oh yes Muhammed saw could do that because he was a super human. We can’t. Same will go with all ibadat and taqwa, and you will be left with urs, milad, naat khawani kind of stuff.

And I have to wonder how much of this “elevation to demigod” is purposefully engineered so that the followers of such beliefs can conveniently claim that they cannot possibly be expected to walk in the footsteps of the prophet s.a.w.

I was at an informal dinner gathering some months back in which one gentleman said that he finds it very difficult to contain his temper when someone says something against huzoor s.a.w. (the reference was the Charlie Hebdo incident). He was frustrated that, according to his opinion, not enough people had taken to the streets to protest. His position was that we are not taking such attacks against our faith seriously and why are we not more “physical” in our response. He even asked the question, “What would it take for you to pick up a weapon? When do you think jihad becomes obligatory upon you?” (Obviously the jihad he was talking about was physical violence.)

The other side was arguing that violence is not an appropriate answer to insult and that such cartoons etc are merely bait and political strategy to rile up the Muslim community. This side asked the other why they didn’t adopt huzoor s.a.w.'s example when in the face of insult and non-violent attack the beloved prophet would turn the other cheek and, at times, even make dua for the offending person?

The answer?

“How can you ask me, aik aam admi, to behave in the way that huzoor s.a.w. did?!!”

[TLK]

Maybe the super qualities were not purposefully manufactured. Maybe our mullahs goofed up in simple translation.

I can say in Urdu that oh Muzna ke daant moutee kee tarha chamakdar hain, aur aankhain jheel kee tarha gehri hain. Now two hundred years later, someone who has only basic knowledge of Urdu could interpret it as there was a lady whose teeth were made out of pearl, and instead of eyes, there were two small lakes. Arabic is a very poetic language. Qaseeda khawani was an art that Arabs took to the next level. (Why do you think prophet called poetry an equivalent of cancer if you may - because so much of lie is involved). Its our fault if we take such poetic praises about prophet Muhammed, and turn them into facts.

BTW, dont grow a big head over what I said about you. I was just creating an analogy there.

[Muzna]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@TLK

oh Muzna ke daant moutee kee tarha chamakdar hain, aur aankhain jheel kee tarha gehri hain

ignore me…I’m just preserving for posterity…

so you were saying…

[psyah]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@Muzna

the following claims:

Peace Sister Muzna

Firstly, I must commend brother vroom for clearly altering his approach in his discussions here.

Secondly I have been hesitant to respond due to biases that we are unable or reluctant to shed.

I can confirm about half of the matters as matters that my own Shaykh has said to us in his talks. May Allah (SWT) preserve him.

I will take up one point at a time inshaAllah and investigate these and provide to the best of my ability.

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@Muzna

I never said “concocted”…
I said, “contorted”.

Big difference.

Well from my reading you believe both, concocted and contorted. But I agree you used the word contorted there, where as for the specific point of Shadowless I think you believe the belief to be concocted. Either way it would be an idea to share what you saw as contorted

I’m not an authority…

I know you are very light on any sort of Islam specific knowledge, but you have been talking about ‘authentic’ so it suggests you have an idea, correctly or incorrectly, about what is authentic. You had asked for authentic so it makes sense that you know what authentic is according to your own self

but from what I have often seen, as enlightenment grows and education spreads, old beliefs become antiquated and replaced with the truth. Perhaps that’s where we are headed and yes, you will no longer be in the majority then.

Muslims were enlightened and educated by RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to what we actually needed to do. Muslims are guided by Allah Ta’ala directly and through His Servants, and this guidance has taken place throughout the changing times. There is no such thing as antiquated beliefs in Islam - its either a false belief or a correct one - our beliefs do not change with time - our following of it will be effected as told By The Messenger of Allah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@Ali_Syed

Is the debate of the prophet not having a shadow relevant to Noor/bashar?

Its to do with ALL types of miraculous beliefs

[psyah]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

Here sister @Muzna

This site should be substantiation for the shadow matter …

The Shadowless Prophet

So the matter is there and documented … It is not my job to say whether it is right or wrong and neither can I say anything about it regarding authenticity.

[bao_bihari]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

From the website that brother Psyah quoted.

From Hadith

• Hadith 1: Sayyidina Hakeem Tirmidhi in his book *Nawaadirul-Usool *narrates from Sayyidina Zakwaan

http://www.paklinks.com/images/radiya.gif

, a close Companion of the Prophet

http://www.paklinks.com/images/salla.gif

, the following Hadith: "The shadow of the Prophet

http://www.paklinks.com/images/salla.gif

could not be seen in the brightness of the sun, nor in moonlight".

• Hadith 2: Allamah Ibn al-Jawzi in his* Kitabul-Wafa* narrates a hadith from Sayyidina Abdullah ibn Abbas

http://www.paklinks.com/images/radiya.gif

the cousin of the Prophet

http://www.paklinks.com/images/salla.gif

in which he said: “The Messenger of Allah had no shadow, not while standing in the sun, but the brilliance of his light (nur) surpassed the rays of the sun; nor while sitting before a burning light, but his luminous light excelled the lustre of the light”.

• Hadith 3: Imam Nasafi in his *Tafseer Madaarik *narrates from Sayyidina Uthman ibn Affan

http://www.paklinks.com/images/radiya.gif

, the son-in-law of the Prophet

http://www.paklinks.com/images/salla.gif

that he said to the Prophet

http://www.paklinks.com/images/salla.gif

: “Allah Almighty does not let your shadow fall on the ground, so that no foot of man can fall on it”.

• Hadith 4: Imam Jalaludeen Suyuti in his Khasaa’is al-Kubra narrates from Ibn Saba

http://www.paklinks.com/images/radiya.gif

: "This is also a unique feature of the Prophet

http://www.paklinks.com/images/salla.gif

that his shadow did not touch the ground, because he was light (nur), and when he used to walk in the sunshine his shadow could not be seen."

Can we see the complete chain(or sanad) of the ahadith as i dont think that any of these narrators had sama with sahbaha :razi: . Just by having a website quote some thing does not really justify this unless the complete evidence is provided, furthermore how to interpret the sahih ahadith that brother ibn sadique quoted about having a shadow, how we will correlate the two?

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@bao_bihari

From the website that brother Psyah quoted.

Can we see the complete chain(or sanad) of the ahadith as i dont think that any of these narrators had sama with sahbaha . Just by having a website quote some thing does not really justify this unless the complete evidence is provided, furthermore how to interpret the sahih ahadith that brother ibn sadique quoted about having a shadow, how we will correlate the two?

Complete evidence has not been provided for anything, all we had is online reports of existence of Hadiths. Also in line with this form of resistance its also fair to say nothing is Sahih. Unless we accept someone else’s authentication - which could be a particular person or a community or a sect. It is valuable to know which of these is our criteria for acceptance. Please comment on this

Lets get some context here because who know nothing about Islam are making big statements

Before delving into hadith interpretations, I’d like to clarify a couple of things since more then one sect has teamed up here

What do we think about the one who disbelieves in the possibility of such a miracle? Here i am referring mindsets such as parvezies [not here] and others [as evident here] who rely on scientific or rationalist approach which disbelieves or is against miracles

and the one who has broke ranks to form his own religion or interpretation and criteria

and the one who believes easily the miracles of His Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam

and the one who takes the view that the basic Aqeedah for acceptance of this miracle is already established, and this is a ‘historical stroke virtue report’ which does not need to be held to the strictest conditions to be acceptable

Please comment on this

Any way, are we brainstorming or we arguing about our points?

lets say we are brainstorming
I take the hadith you were talking about is Hadith of Umm ul Momineen, and not the one about Hell

Possibilities

1. What is referred in the Hadith is a change in the light conditions
2. Her sensing of The Prophetic presence
3. Perhaps it was a warning/displeasure from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala with the Shadow being displayed since Rasool Pak was displeased by Umm Ul Momineen prior to that @Psyah - do I need to make tauba?]
4. Perhaps it was safe to display a Shadow here because whatever the conditions Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala had for RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam not having a shadow were not being broken here, this would suggest it was not a permanent state

As for the other Hadith:

1. What ever is in hell has darkness, and the shadow here is a metaphoric projection that will never be a reality and its purpose was to shows us the result of particular actions

[bao_bihari]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@vroom.

Sorry but can you summarise so that i can understand.

Questioning a “hadith” when it is in contradiction with other ahadith or some scholars have difference of opinion is a valid and advisable path.

It is not that some thing that does not fit in my aqal is not correct, but it should be based on authentic narrations.

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@bao_bihari

@vroom.

Sorry but can you summarise so that i can understand.

its fairly concise anyway, if you do not have time - then i guess we will have to skip. I do not have the time to re-summarise unfortunately. It was not a long complicated post, three sections broken up with big gaps

Questioning a “hadith” when it is in contradiction with other ahadith or some scholars have difference of opinion is a valid and advisable path.

That would mean its a disputed matter, and Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah do not need heavily authenticated narrations to believe in that virtue
You see the basic principle and possibility for it already exists for us, is established from elsewhere, so such a virtue can be believed through non fabricated Hadith and approval of Scholars. This is the principle we have in place for such virtues, and historical reports

I have not accepted there is difference of opinion on it however. I think of those Scholars acceptable to me who have commented none have disapproved, many have approved - which is a ijma. But thats one thing, the other reality is that it is a belief which is approved by Imams - so it is valid even if no ijmah exists. So the heavy criticism and hatred of those who believe in it - see page one/two - has no right to exist. And if there is ijmah as I think then obviously this has repercussions for those who are against it

It is not that some thing that does not fit in my aqal is not correct, but it should be based on authentic narrations.

I think the issue is that its seen as Aqeedah changing virtue for some people who are increasing in number, but not an Aqeedah changing virtue for Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah. No it does not need vigorously authenticated narrations to back it up according to our criteria, this is not an area that requires that

Those who hold such high authenticity standards for historical and reports of virtues would have not history nor any virtues of their predecessors in their religion.

Basically if we have a weak but accepted narration on a historical or fazail matter - and it is accepted - or its meaning is accepted - but it is not at all acceptable to some other people - it means we have a difference of opinion on what is established from our base texts

I believe in the Noor of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, and that He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is Nur of Allah. This is my Aqeedah, and Im bound by it - so any texts which suggest otherwise would be interpreted by me to suggest pardah, times of lesser and higher pardah, some saw it, some did not, some were able to see it, some not able at all etc etc

And I believe Isa Alaihis Salaam is Ruhullah, Spirit of Allah, and as we know the spirit is one aspect of the trinity to christians, yet Isa Alaihis Salaam is not denied this virtue in Islam. the representatives of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala are given virtues to show their representation.

I see myself as the Believer that sees their Virtues, and this is important to me. I cant see the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam [that would mean something] but I can see the ground around Him - there is no Shadow - the ground is smiling

‘‘O Ohud, be firm’’ meaning stop being excited ''for on you there is no more then a Prophet…"

Subahan Allah - The Creation of Allah interact with The Prophetic presence. Shadowless - ness is nothing for a Prophet

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@psyah

This site should be substantiation for the shadow matter …

The Shadowless Prophet

So the matter is there and documented … It is not my job to say whether it is right or wrong and neither can I say anything about it regarding authenticity.

Assalama alaykum respected brother pysah

The link provided by you is an extreme Barelvi Site:

I’ll quote from the link:

Can these people who are influenced by the new innovators in religion, the Wahabi/Salafi movement, deny the veracity of these miracles? If these are possible, then why is it difficult to accept the miracle that the Prophet did not possess a shadow? Do they have any conclusive proof from a single hadith to prove the contrary ? Can these people who are influenced by the new innovators in religion, the Wahabi/Salafi movement, deny the veracity of these miracles? If these are possible, then why is it difficult to accept the miracle that the Prophet did not possess a shadow? Do they have any conclusive proof from a single hadith to prove the contrary?

I’ll provide them with 2 ahadith – Now Barelvis can’t accuse Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) and Sayyidduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) of being influenced by Wahabi/Salafi movement!

Some authentic narrations that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did NOT have a shadow.

Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that once while the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was on a journey, the camel of his wife Sayyida Safiyya (Allah be pleased with her) fell ill. However, his other wife Sayyida Zaynab (Allah be pleased with her) had an extra camel.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to Sayyida Zaynab: “The camel of Safiyya has become ill, can you lend her your extra camel?” She replied: “should I give that Jew?” (Sayyida Safiyyah was originally a Jew). So, (upon hearing this, the Messenger of Allah became upset and) deserted her for two or three months and he would not come to her…. She says: “Until one day, at midday, I could see the shadow of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) approaching…..” **(Musnad Ahmad, 6/132) **

Sayyidduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that, one night the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) led us in prayer, and whilst in prayer he stretched out his hand and then pulled it back. We said: “O Messenger of Allah! We saw you doing something in prayer that we have not seen you do before.”

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Indeed, Paradise was presented before me, and I saw in it, fruits that were low and near. I intended to take one but was told to holdback, thus I held back. Then Hell was presented before me until I saw my and your shadow in it, thus I gestured to you to move back.” (Mustadrak al-Hakim, 4/456 & authenticated by Imam al-Dhahabi)
Quoting from the link

From Scholars

Having read the words of those who had lived with the Prophet and had closely watched his every action, we shall now turn to some great scholars of Islam, whose writings are considered most authentic in Islamic affairs. Pay heed to these to dispel any doubts that you may have regarding the subject. All these great scholars firmly believed that the Prophet did not possess a shadow.

The link mentioned the following scholars;

I have given the relevant dates of their lives:

Qadi Iyad ibn Musa (1083–1149)
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (1207 – 17 December 1273)
Shihab al-Din Abu’l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Qastallani 1448 – 1517
Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi also known as Al Muhaddith Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehlavi was born in 1551

The article just mentions a few Scholars, all very respectable but they are later day scholars and the article fails to mention even one scholar from the days of the Salaf – Like Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Shafii, Imam Ahmad, Imam Malik, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Trimidhi, Ibn al-Jawzi, Imam Abu Hasan Ali ibn Ismail al-Ashari, Imam Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, Imam Abu Ja’far Ahmad ibn Salamah at-Tahawi, Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Imam Jaffar asSadiq, Imam Muhammad Az-Zuhri, Abd ar-Rahman ibn Amr al-Awzai, Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak, Qadi Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad al-Shaybani (may Allah have mercy on them all).

The few Scholars that I have mentioned individually carry more and scholarship then those mentioned by the article.

Also

Mushrikeen of Makkah were for ever looking to find fault with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) so they could warn the people away from him.
“They would make things up, spread rumours and lies so that people would stay away from the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and not listen to him. At times they accused him of being a sorcerer, using magic to trick and influence people. Other times they would say that was just a madman and is talking nonsense. Or that an evil spirit possessed him so that the Arabs should ignore him and keep away from him. Or they say that he was just a poet and the message of the Qu’ran was just poetry.
If they had seen that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had no shadow they would have made a huge hue and cry and taken a confirmation of him being a sorcerer possessed by evil spirits.

This has never happened and is not recorded in any seerah books.

[psyah]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@Ibn_Sadique

Assalama alaykum respected brother pysah

The link provided by you is an extreme Barelvi Site:

I’ll quote from the link:

I’ll provide them with 2 ahadith – Now Barelvis can’t accuse Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) and Sayyidduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) of being influenced by Wahabi/Salafi movement!

Some authentic narrations that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did NOT have a shadow.

Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that once while the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was on a journey, the camel of his wife Sayyida Safiyya (Allah be pleased with her) fell ill. However, his other wife Sayyida Zaynab (Allah be pleased with her) had an extra camel.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to Sayyida Zaynab: “The camel of Safiyya has become ill, can you lend her your extra camel?” She replied: “should I give that Jew?” (Sayyida Safiyyah was originally a Jew). So, (upon hearing this, the Messenger of Allah became upset and) deserted her for two or three months and he would not come to her…. She says: “Until one day, at midday, I could see the shadow of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) approaching…..” **(Musnad Ahmad, 6/132) **

Sayyidduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that, one night the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) led us in prayer, and whilst in prayer he stretched out his hand and then pulled it back. We said: “O Messenger of Allah! We saw you doing something in prayer that we have not seen you do before.”

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Indeed, Paradise was presented before me, and I saw in it, fruits that were low and near. I intended to take one but was told to holdback, thus I held back. Then Hell was presented before me until I saw my and your shadow in it, thus I gestured to you to move back.” (Mustadrak al-Hakim, 4/456 & authenticated by Imam al-Dhahabi)
Quoting from the link

The link mentioned the following scholars;

I have given the relevant dates of their lives:

Qadi Iyad ibn Musa (1083–1149)
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (1207 – 17 December 1273)
Shihab al-Din Abu’l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Qastallani 1448 – 1517
Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi also known as Al Muhaddith Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehlavi was born in 1551

The article just mentions a few Scholars, all very respectable but they are later day scholars and the article fails to mention even one scholar from the days of the Salaf – Like Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Shafii, Imam Ahmad, Imam Malik, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Trimidhi, Ibn al-Jawzi, Imam Abu Hasan Ali ibn Ismail al-Ashari, Imam Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, Imam Abu Ja’far Ahmad ibn Salamah at-Tahawi, Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Imam Jaffar asSadiq, Imam Muhammad Az-Zuhri, Abd ar-Rahman ibn Amr al-Awzai, Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak, Qadi Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad al-Shaybani (may Allah have mercy on them all).

The few Scholars that I have mentioned individually carry more and scholarship then those mentioned by the article.

Also

Mushrikeen of Makkah were for ever looking to find fault with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) so they could warn the people away from him.
“They would make things up, spread rumours and lies so that people would stay away from the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and not listen to him. At times they accused him of being a sorcerer, using magic to trick and influence people. Other times they would say that was just a madman and is talking nonsense. Or that an evil spirit possessed him so that the Arabs should ignore him and keep away from him. Or they say that he was just a poet and the message of the Qu’ran was just poetry.
If they had seen that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had no shadow they would have made a huge hue and cry and taken a confirmation of him being a sorcerer possessed by evil spirits.

This has never happened and is not recorded in any seerah books.

JazakAllahuKhair brother Ibn Sadique … and Wa’alaikumuSalam

My purpose for providing the link was to fulfil the OP’s question, which is substantiation for the said beliefs. There are references to that effect and for whatever reason … they are there. Perhaps some interpretation is required, perhaps in some cases rejection is required … I didn’t give my take on the subject. Rather I provided the reason why some have that belief … in others words I was showing the belief is based on something and not just picked out of thin air. Further matters are based on how well both sides of the argument can be presented and how well they can be debated … the onus is on the individual to make up their own mind based on the guidance of the scholars who they feel open their hearts towards sincerity.

In terms of scholarship - it is true that some have more scholarship than others, but it is also true that Islam is not just one subject area - it has many subject areas all of which have different experts. For me negation of a matter is clearer than deriving negation from hadith. For example the hadith may state something and another hadith may state another thing, but it takes the one who interprets those hadith in order to say something based on them. And then there is the matter of perception and the matter of poetic description and the matter of checking translation - all could be quite a task.

For me dogmatically shadow or no shadow - there is no conflict with aqeedah in this matter - however, I have started to lean towards such an idea as being a really good way for me to increase in respect and love for him (SAW). That does not mean I am saying one thing or another - I am leaving it open until perhaps I can study more about it … I take your points and accept the line of the argumentation, but I have not made up my mind on this matter until I can honestly say that I have exhausted the subject in researching the matter myself. Picking or finding hadith to contradict the said position is only the beginning of the journey. For every hadith we find to contradict another we create the problem of discontinuity and imbalance - it then becomes more important to find the balance carefully and I feel I must not resort to a previously biased position to settle very easily at an answer that suits my personal state, but to pursue the truth and continue doing so.

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

Psyah is not sure so lets leave him to study, However I have some things to say

@Ibn_Sadique

Assalama alaykum respected brother pysah

The link provided by you is an extreme Barelvi Site:

That was not a Barelvi site, it was a site of people who follow traditional Islam, a group from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah. So they are similar in beliefs, and they can be called barelvi but only in certain contexts

You label that site, so you must have a label for yourself, no? Tell us what group you belong to

I’ll quote from the link:

“…Now another group has sprung up, seeking recognition by using scientific knowledge as the basis for Iman (faith). Anything contrary to their understanding of science is discarded from their principles of faith…”
“…Can these people who are influenced by the new innovators in religion, the Wahabi/Salafi movement, …”

The wahabi/salafi movement is an innovation, a brand new one at that. Currently they are playing imam to the people described above, and there is proof in this thread for that

I’ll provide them with 2 ahadith – Now Barelvis can’t accuse Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) and Sayyidduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) of being influenced by Wahabi/Salafi movement!

Some authentic narrations that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did NOT have a shadow.

Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that once while the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was on a journey, the camel of his wife Sayyida Safiyya (Allah be pleased with her) fell ill. However, his other wife Sayyida Zaynab (Allah be pleased with her) had an extra camel.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to Sayyida Zaynab: “The camel of Safiyya has become ill, can you lend her your extra camel?” She replied: “should I give that Jew?” (Sayyida Safiyyah was originally a Jew). So, (upon hearing this, the Messenger of Allah became upset and) deserted her for two or three months and he would not come to her…. She says: “Until one day, at midday, I could see the shadow of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) approaching…..” **(Musnad Ahmad, 6/132) **

There is no Shadow at Midday, so it must be interpreted

Mohsin khan has even included this point as part of his translation of the Quran:
Have you not seen how your Lord spread the shadow. If He willed, He could have made it still - But We have made the sun its guide (i.e. after the sunrise, the shadow shrinks and vanishes at midnoon and then again appears in the afternoon with the decline of the sun, and had there been no sunlight, there would have been no shadow). Al-Furqan 45

The hadith must mean the outline of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam,

If this is half valid it means it is a proof for the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam Not having a Shadow, since the midday is prominently mentioned. Remember two of the hadiths sighted mention no shadow on the floor, specifically floor

This particular hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad could, could, even be proof for the belief depending on some specifics that we do not know. Its certainly not a straight forward rebuttal of the belief

Sayyidduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that, one night the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) led us in prayer, and whilst in prayer he stretched out his hand and then pulled it back. We said: “O Messenger of Allah! We saw you doing something in prayer that we have not seen you do before.”

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Indeed, Paradise was presented before me, and I saw in it, fruits that were low and near. I intended to take one but was told to holdback, thus I held back. Then Hell was presented before me until I saw my and your shadow in it, thus I gestured to you to move back.” (Mustadrak al-Hakim, 4/456 & authenticated by Imam al-Dhahabi)

This has no bearing, although quiet clearly it is an outline

[A/I`mran 3:106] On the Day (of Resurrection) when some faces will be shining and some faces black; so, (to) those whose faces are blackened, “What! You disbelieved after you had accepted faith! Therefore now taste the punishment, the result of your disbelief.”

Quoting from the link

The link mentioned the following scholars;

I have given the relevant dates of their lives:

Qadi Iyad ibn Musa (1083–1149)
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (1207 – 17 December 1273)
Shihab al-Din Abu’l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Qastallani 1448 – 1517
Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi also known as Al Muhaddith Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehlavi was born in 1551

There is actually alot more then just these scholars, however the Ahlus Sunnah list a few people as to validate/substantiate the position

Interesting use of the christian calendar, to make them seem ‘‘latter day’’

The article just mentions a few Scholars, all very respectable but they are later day scholars and the article fails to mention even one scholar from the days of the Salaf – Like Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Shafii, Imam Ahmad, Imam Malik, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Trimidhi, Ibn al-Jawzi, Imam Abu Hasan Ali ibn Ismail al-Ashari, Imam Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, Imam Abu Ja’far Ahmad ibn Salamah at-Tahawi, Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Imam Jaffar asSadiq, Imam Muhammad Az-Zuhri, Abd ar-Rahman ibn Amr al-Awzai, Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak, Qadi Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad al-Shaybani (may Allah have mercy on them all).

‘‘I want it from Imam Abu Hanifa?’’ Issues of virtues and history are not expected to come from every source, although some of them names are narrators on a similar topics. I have heard their names in sanads of Noor Narrations

The few Scholars that I have mentioned individually carry more and scholarship then those mentioned by the article.

They do, I’ll go with that

Mushrikeen of Makkah were for ever looking to find fault with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) so they could warn the people away from him.
“They would make things up, spread rumours and lies so that people would stay away from the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and not listen to him. At times they accused him of being a sorcerer, using magic to trick and influence people. Other times they would say that was just a madman and is talking nonsense. Or that an evil spirit possessed him so that the Arabs should ignore him and keep away from him. Or they say that he was just a poet and the message of the Qu’ran was just poetry.
If they had seen that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had no shadow they would have made a huge hue and cry and taken a confirmation of him being a sorcerer possessed by evil spirits.

This has never happened and is not recorded in any seerah books.

The mushrikeen were deaf dumb and blind. They couldn’t even see miracles were happening around them all the time, lack of a Shadow could easily go missed by them

I don’t even look out for shadows, if i saw a group of people or even a single person - I could easily miss it if one of them did not have Shadow. It’s certainly not something that i look out for

What seerah/history books would be better then the Shifa of Imam Iyad?, its inclusion in books is proof of its validity as a standalone virtue [fazail] whether its in seerat books or not

[vroom]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

@psyah

JazakAllahuKhair brother Ibn Sadique … and Wa’alaikumuSalam

My purpose for providing the link was to fulfil the OP’s question, which is substantiation for the said beliefs. There are references to that effect and for whatever reason … they are there. Perhaps some interpretation is required, perhaps in some cases rejection is required … I didn’t give my take on the subject. Rather I provided the reason why some have that belief … in others words I was showing the belief is based on something and not just picked out of thin air. Further matters are based on how well both sides of the argument can be presented and how well they can be debated … the onus is on the individual to make up their own mind based on the guidance of the scholars who they feel open their hearts towards sincerity.

In terms of scholarship - it is true that some have more scholarship than others, but it is also true that Islam is not just one subject area - it has many subject areas all of which have different experts. For me negation of a matter is clearer than deriving negation from hadith. For example the hadith may state something and another hadith may state another thing, but it takes the one who interprets those hadith in order to say something based on them. And then there is the matter of perception and the matter of poetic description and the matter of checking translation - all could be quite a task.

For me dogmatically shadow or no shadow - there is no conflict with aqeedah in this matter - however, I have started to lean towards such an idea as being a really good way for me to increase in respect and love for him (SAW). That does not mean I am saying one thing or another - I am leaving it open until perhaps I can study more about it … I take your points and accept the line of the argumentation, but I have not made up my mind on this matter until I can honestly say that I have exhausted the subject in researching the matter myself. Picking or finding hadith to contradict the said position is only the beginning of the journey. For every hadith we find to contradict another we create the problem of discontinuity and imbalance - it then becomes more important to find the balance carefully and I feel I must not resort to a previously biased position to settle very easily at an answer that suits my personal state, but to pursue the truth and continue doing so.

There obviously is for some people. The virtue of not having a Shadow seems pretty much ingrained to be hated to some people who share a common background. Psyah just off the top of your head do you recall this particular virtue as a standout ‘‘must oppose’’ from your previous understanding?

Even the article you linked has given an insight into the rational/scientific/religious state of the people who would be seen arguing on this point, its pretty accurate and some thing i had already latched onto. However the sect of your previous understanding seem to be pretty similar in this regard, its gauge-able from their interest and commitment

[teggy]

Re: Can someone please substantiate/confirm

AsSalaamo Alaikum!

It is amazing that we would spend hours, days, weeks and months splitting hairs over the perceived color of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.)'s hair, and do it like it’s a religious obligation, but the moment a disagreement surfaces we all man our posts like it’s wartime, instead of adhering to the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) who would keep all his Sahaba (r.a.) together as one body and encourage them to treat each other like brothers and fear divisions over things that have little significance on the day of judgement when much much bigger questions must be answered, and much heavier accounting is due to take place.

Just an observation. SubhanAllah.