British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Le_Pakistan

Yes please…

Yes I am aware of the definitions of these concepts. You are the perfect example that creaming them is easy, but sticking to them a tid bit difficult.

I have read your comments. All of them.

Thanks for typing down not too long sentences, it does make reading easier and clear.

1. Me emotional and hot headed? Dude, I even called you ‘dearest’.

Since you don’t advocate such a law, and there is no such law, and the traditional dresscode is what people used to wear in the beginning of last century, then what is your problem?

2. Agree. But you don’t need to give up your own customs and traditions.

3. If that is what you call the OBL-look, then you must be a carrier of the Breivik look?

And since when is dressing a certain way equal to imposing yourself on the other culture? By the way, you still didn’t tell me what traditional british cloths are. Because T-shirt and jeans definitely arent.

4. I no where mentioned anything about this.

The example in your last paragraph is not in line with the topic on hand. It would have if there were expecxtations and certain rulings for immigrants to dress accordingly, which there aren’t.

Anyways, we are going in circels now, I am calling it a night.

I know condescension when i hear it meri jaan..

The problem as I see it is from the perspective of the British themselves. they feel it undermines their culture to have hordes of beards turning England in to Afghanistan…
I can sympathize with them on that account as we all worry about having our culture diminished and undermined… We Pakistanis are the same way. Except its understandable when we become defensive about aspects of our culture, but they are considered racists, even though its their country.

Breivek is an extremist just like any Muslim extremist. At the very least, dress like a normal person. Its England, not Afghanistan or Saudi. And you know exactly what im talking about. The way some Pakistanis dress in the UK, suddenly Pakistanis are Arabs! Did someone not inform them that pretending to be Sheik doesnt make you Islamic?

Ofcourse dressing a certain way imposes one culture on another. if tomorrow, white started living in Pakistan and began wearing bikinis and shots and skirts people would be up in arms.

You didnt mention it, but that is what is happening in many parts of Europe.

And the final line is very relevent. Read it again. That is why we should respect our host countries and their customs.

[stoppit]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Woolwich suspect’s friend arrested after appearing on Newsnight | UK news | guardian.co.uk

“A friend of one of the suspected killers of a soldier butchered in a London street was arrested by counter-terrorism officers yesterday after going on television to allege that Michael Adebolajo was tortured in Kenya and harassed by MI5 – who asked him to spy for them.”

[rommel]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

lol.. void of wisdom?!?! I go to someones house and then insist on doing things as I see fit and ignoring their customs? Its only void of wisdom for someone who arrogantly believes his beliefs and customs trump all others and everyone else should emulate him... And then you wonder why Europeans suddenly dont like Muslims!

Would you prefer to be the wolf who devours all the sheep? Muslims in general, aren't exactly pillars of virtue either. And there are many people in Britain who are just as virtues and are by no means Islamic, nor do they wear any such credentials to identify themselves as such like a beard or a burqa.

If anything, its Muslims who should learn from the Westerners. Those calling for "sharia," whatever the heck that means, fail to see the virtues of a society that while not Muslim, are still far more Islamic then any of the countries they or their parents left. England in particular, the generosity afforded to her citizens through the Welfare system is to be envied.

Does flag bearer mean you shut yourself out of society in exclusive Muslim areas, hide behind burqas and refuse any interaction with the wider society because you dont feel they live up to your standards?

What constitutes being a flag bearer in my definition includes adapting and assimilating those aspects of the British and Western society which do not directly contradict our religious beliefs, in order to better integrate into our chosen society, as a sign of respect for our hosts and their traditions. Your attire for example, is something that you can change. Does Islam not ask you to respect the customs of your hosts? must you look like 7th century bedoin to be considered a flag bearer of Islam?

Adapting to and respecting the customs of the society you live in speaks far more loudly of Islams tolerance and respect for others then a 2 foot long beard and head to toe Burqa.

What custom? what is the blueprint of british culture? it does'nt exist, if anything its wear what you like weather its a pair of jeans of a shalwar kameez or even a burqa.

Muslims do interact proof of that is 2 billion muslims Worldwide from australia to zanzibar in your face. As for uk what about the white english people who do not want to mix with the muslims or other ethnic minorities they prefer to be around their beer drinking womanising friends or live in their exclusive rich areas have you ever answered thought about that in your narrow minded viewpoint.

this about the fifth post you have mentioned 7th centurary muslims like a broken record well democracy was created in 5th centuary so your calling for something even older!!!

[rommel]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@stoppit

Woolwich suspect’s friend arrested after appearing on Newsnight | UK news | guardian.co.uk

“A friend of one of the suspected killers of a soldier butchered in a London street was arrested by counter-terrorism officers yesterday after going on television to allege that Michael Adebolajo was tortured in Kenya and harassed by MI5 – who asked him to spy for them.”

harassed and bullied by UK intelligence into working for them, very suspicious

[psyah]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

lol.. void of wisdom?!?! I go to someones house and then insist on doing things as I see fit and ignoring their customs? Its only void of wisdom for someone who arrogantly believes his beliefs and customs trump all others and everyone else should emulate him... And then you wonder why Europeans suddenly dont like Muslims!

Would you prefer to be the wolf who devours all the sheep? Muslims in general, aren't exactly pillars of virtue either. And there are many people in Britain who are just as virtues and are by no means Islamic, nor do they wear any such credentials to identify themselves as such like a beard or a burqa.

If anything, its Muslims who should learn from the Westerners. Those calling for "sharia," whatever the heck that means, fail to see the virtues of a society that while not Muslim, are still far more Islamic then any of the countries they or their parents left. England in particular, the generosity afforded to her citizens through the Welfare system is to be envied.

Does flag bearer mean you shut yourself out of society in exclusive Muslim areas, hide behind burqas and refuse any interaction with the wider society because you dont feel they live up to your standards?

What constitutes being a flag bearer in my definition includes adapting and assimilating those aspects of the British and Western society which do not directly contradict our religious beliefs, in order to better integrate into our chosen society, as a sign of respect for our hosts and their traditions. Your attire for example, is something that you can change. Does Islam not ask you to respect the customs of your hosts? must you look like 7th century bedoin to be considered a flag bearer of Islam?

Adapting to and respecting the customs of the society you live in speaks far more loudly of Islams tolerance and respect for others then a 2 foot long beard and head to toe Burqa.

Please read and understand my post Med911 ... There are wolves, sheep, wolves in sheep's clothing and indeed the are shepherds ... Our task is to be the shepherds using the best characters to guide others ... Not blend in to their customs and ways ...

[Ma_Mooli]

And since when is dressing a certain
I know condescension when i hear it meri jaan..

The problem as I see it is from the perspective of the British themselves. they feel it undermines their culture to have hordes of beards turning England in to Afghanistan…

I can sympathize with them on that account as we all worry about having our culture diminished and undermined… We Pakistanis are the same way. Except its understandable when we become defensive about aspects of our culture, but they are considered racists, even though its their country.

Breivek is an extremist just like any Muslim extremist. At the very least, dress like a normal person. Its England, not Afghanistan or Saudi. And you know exactly what im talking about. The way some Pakistanis dress in the UK, suddenly Pakistanis are Arabs! Did someone not inform them that pretending to be Sheik doesnt make you Islamic?

Ofcourse dressing a certain way imposes one culture on another. if tomorrow, white started living in Pakistan and began wearing bikinis and shots and skirts people would be up in arms.

You didnt mention it, but that is what is happening in many parts of Europe.

And the final line is very relevent. Read it again. That is why we should respect our host countries and their customs.

You may have a point, except when brits/ western ppl go to live abroad, they refuse to learn or speak the local lingo, (spain/france) continue to dress in (revealing) western clothing, drink when its illegal, carry the british/ own flag during sport, eat their own food, celebrate their own festivals; listen/watch to their own music, tv programs, news etc…(Dubai; saudi / mid eastern compounds; pakistan and plenty of other muslim countries)

So which part of these folksfollow the ‘do in rome when in rome’ rubbish?

Is it the bit that applies to muslims in the west only? Or the bit where you’re so in awe, that you lap up every tired anti-muslim cliches like some intellectual fact?

Tis really sad that you are so insecure about your roots and culture, but please do not project YOUR self esteem issues on to everyone else here. Most muslims have a tad more self respect then that.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Peace Med911

That is a cliche, over used and void of wisdom ... It is designed for the sheep among us ... It is another way of saying "be a sheep" ... No, when in Rome, be more Roman than them in their virtues and lead them in that way, and less Roman than them in their ills and show them their folly thereof ... As Muslims in the non-Islamic countries we should be flag bearers for Islam not people who hide in the crowd.

Wow! So, Muslims must forced upon non-Muslims in non-Muslim countries their beliefs & you wonder why Muslims are not liked in the west?

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Then feel free to protest against those extremists but don't be telling everyone else that they need to get rid of their shalwar kameez and beards.

What you wear does not make you an extremist...its the actions. So, Shalwar Kameez and beards do not=extremism. Be-headings and suicidal bombing in the name of Islam is extremism.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@rommel

you are correct with your facts

Demography of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WHite British population is 91% but hey lets not facts get in the way of scaremongering and racism from these deluded coconuts who think the Mazlims are taking over.

If someone had tattoos all over their face and piercings all over whats left on their face these buffoons would not blame secularism or democracy they would have 0 problem with it, but if a "dangerous terrorist evil non white halal eating 5 time praying mazlim wears a burqa oh no world is gonna end, run for your life.

This is the type of hypocrite you are dealing with.

Again, their country & their rules. What are you complaining about? Btw, what % of non-Muslims are flocking to Islamic countries?

[ButtSb]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

So ethnically muslim citizens of the western countries should not view it as their own country? Since ''their country'' means the country belongs to white folks and they might kick out immigrant muslims anyday??

[Ma_Mooli]

[QUOTE]

Again, their country & their rules. What are you complaining about? Btw, what % of non-Muslims are flocking to Islamic countries?
[/QUOTE]

Except its not just 'their' country is it. Muslims have been living there for decades, abiding by the laws, paying their taxes, and contributing to the economy. They have equal right to complain.

And wearing beards/burqa is NOT against the law either. Honestly, where do you numpties come from?

[Ma_Mooli]

British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

As for the topic at hand; it was blowback from the invasions in iraq/Afghanistan. You cant go around killing innocent people abroad and then act all surprised and outraged when they retaliate. Both the marathon bombers and the london suspects clearly gave their reasons. It was nothing to do with burqas/beard.. So why that is being discussed here, im not sure.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Please read and understand my post Med911 ... There are wolves, sheep, wolves in sheep's clothing and indeed the are shepherds ... Our task is to be the shepherds using the best characters to guide others ... Not blend in to their customs and ways ...

I thinks its arrogant to assume its your duty to be a Shepard of others. The British have done an exceptional job of shepherding themselves without the need of a bearded mulah to guide them... And where exactly are we shepherding too them prey tell. which enlightened nation of Islam should those poor sheep emulate? When they ask you if yu can give an indication of whats in store for them, to whom will you point.. What extraordinary horizons will open up to these sheep that isnt currently present in their society?

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

You may have a point, except when brits/ western ppl go to live abroad, they refuse to learn or speak the local lingo, (spain/france) continue to dress in (revealing) western clothing, drink when its illegal, carry the british/ own flag during sport, eat their own food, celebrate their own festivals; listen/watch to their own music, tv programs, news etc...(Dubai; saudi / mid eastern compounds; pakistan and plenty of other muslim countries)

So which part of these folksfollow the 'do in rome when in rome' rubbish?

Is it the bit that applies to muslims in the west only? Or the bit where you're so in awe, that you lap up every tired anti-muslim cliches like some intellectual fact?

Tis really sad that you are so insecure about your roots and culture, but please do not project YOUR self esteem issues on to everyone else here. Most muslims have a tad more self respect then that.

They visit these places, they dont LIVE permanently in those places. They are tourists. Not the same thing as taking up permanent residence.

And if they do live in those places, then its incumbent upon them to adapt certain aspects of those regions aswell..

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Except its not just 'their' country is it. Muslims have been living there for decades, abiding by the laws, paying their taxes, and contributing to the economy. They have equal right to complain.

And wearing beards/burqa is NOT against the law either. Honestly, where do you numpties come from?

They have rght to dress up in whatever they want. They can dress like Geisha if they want. Its not that they dont have a right, they do have the right. Im simply saying they should have respect for the fact that they live in England and not Pakistan and choose to assimilate with their adopted society.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

So ethnically muslim citizens of the western countries should not view it as their own country? Since ''their country'' means the country belongs to white folks and they might kick out immigrant muslims anyday??

It is Britain, not Pakistan. Their country belongs to BRITISH people. British people dont necessarily come in one color. They should try to assimilate with the BRITISH CULTURE as best they can. Dressing like you live in Saudi Arabia for instance, isnt assimilating. If u want to dress like a Saudi, then go live there.

I found you cannot really get about in France without learning some of the language. American friends living in Mexico could all speak Spanish. Its a complex thing to what degree people from different countries adapt to other countries, to say White people do or dont is dependant on all sorts of various factors, cant cover them all in this thread I think.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

What custom? what is the blueprint of british culture? it does'nt exist, if anything its wear what you like weather its a pair of jeans of a shalwar kameez or even a burqa.

Muslims do interact proof of that is 2 billion muslims Worldwide from australia to zanzibar in your face. As for uk what about the white english people who do not want to mix with the muslims or other ethnic minorities they prefer to be around their beer drinking womanising friends or live in their exclusive rich areas have you ever answered thought about that in your narrow minded viewpoint.

this about the fifth post you have mentioned 7th centurary muslims like a broken record well democracy was created in 5th centuary so your calling for something even older!!!

You dont have to be British to drink beer and be a womanizer. You can be practicing Pakistani Muslim living in Pakistan to do that as well..

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Ma_Mooli

As for the topic at hand; it was blowback from the invasions in iraq/Afghanistan. You cant go around killing innocent people abroad and then act all surprised and outraged when they retaliate. Both the marathon bombers and the london suspects clearly gave their reasons. It was nothing to do with burqas/beard.. So why that is being discussed here, im not sure.

Yes but we arent living in the stone age. You dont settle political differences by killing your opponents. Since when has vigilantism found support in Islam? I thought violence was the very very last resort. Still violence does breed violence, but its doesnt justify it.

[GoldenAsif]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Appalling crime!

It is the duty of every muslim to condemn this barbaric act unconditionally. We may disagree with certain aspects of Western foreign policy but there is no justification whatsoever for such heinous crimes against humanity. yeh log insan hein ya janwar!!! Muslims will earn more respect around the world if they learn to condemn and abhor such atrocities without any ifs or buts

Imams have done the right thing.
**“We share the absolute horror felt by the rest of British society at the sick and barbaric crime that was committed in the name of our religion. We condemn this heinous atrocity in the strongest possible terms. It is a senseless act of pure depravity worthy of nothing but contempt,”

**Far-right marchers rally amid tensions over Woolwich killing - CNN.com

Not again! another incident, this time in France
French Soldier Stabbed In The Neck In Paris

[Ma_Mooli]

[QUOTE]

They visit these places, they dont LIVE permanently in those places. They are tourists. Not the same thing as taking up permanent residence.

And if they do live in those places, then its incumbent upon them to adapt certain aspects of those regions aswell..
[/QUOTE]

No.. They live there. And no it is not incumbent on them. White Brits are also migrating in high proportion; they are notorious for not learning other languages because they expect everyone to understand / speak their language.

So thats my point; its not a muslim or pakistani thing to want retain or be proud of your culture and customs, its a common thing and not necessarily a bad thing. And no one has a right to point fingers at others in order to tell them how to integrate. Not least the brits.