British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Huma

You can sympathise with the xenophobic, insular and insecure lot all you want, Med, but I won’t and let’s just leave it at that. And I’m certainly not going to waste my time studying the psyche of lunatics like these: Racist British Woman on the Tram - Full Video!! - YouTube

Yup, not racist at all.

Nonsense Huma.
i NEVER said sympathize with racists or people who are xenophobic, I said those are negative traits. I said is try to understand that the emotions of these people and understand that their concerns are as valid as yours. While such insecurities are not healthy and they dont help anyone, they are a part of human nature. And if you believe you are entitled to cling to aspects of your culture, then they to are allowed to be concerned with their own perceived loss of culture. Their fear of having their culture diluted and undermined is as valid as a Pakistanis, who for example, insists on sending his child to a Muslim school so as to not be influenced by “Western” culture…

The women in the video is deserving of pity.. She is just a sad example of the ugly side of human nature. Is she any worse then the bile spitting bearded fanatics that call the uk their home?

[Huma_1]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

But I oppose them all equally so I'm not sure what you're getting at? You're just complicating a very simple point I was trying to make, that the idea of a multicultural society is to let multiple cultures flourish under one roof and so it doesn't make sense to be moaning about other cultures that are supposed to be an equally integral part of a culturally diverse society. And now you've just confused me more by calling it "bile spitting" on one hand and "valid concerns" on the other. Over 90% of the population in UK is White British and you're telling me that their identity is under threat because of <10% of people with different ethnic/cultural backgrounds?

[picoico]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Chairman CEO

Many Brits and Europeans are racists but that's not to say the 'Muslim problem' is not real.

And pray tell, what is the "final solution" to this problem...

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Huma

But I oppose them all equally so I'm not sure what you're getting at? You're just complicating a very simple point I was trying to make, that the idea of a multicultural society is to let multiple cultures flourish under one roof and so it doesn't make sense to be moaning about other cultures that are supposed to be an equally integral part of a culturally diverse society. And now you've just confused me more by calling it "bile spitting" on one hand and "valid concerns" on the other. Over 90% of the population in UK is White British and you're telling me that their identity is under threat because of <10% of people with different ethnic/cultural backgrounds?

Its a very simple point... Perhaps their concerns, or their fears are irrational, but fear usually is irrational. But for them, the growing numbers of foreigners, entire cities with neighborhood exclusively populated by minorities, particularly people who do not want to assimilate, that to them is a cause for alarm. All im saying is we should try harder to assimilate and adapt to the cultures we live in, and try to understand that the concerns of white or any other group whos cities and towns we decide to live in, have as much right to feel threatened as we do.

For example, must Muslim men walk about with terribly unkempt beards and dressing is if they just stepped of the plane from 7th century Arabia? Its not mandatory for you to dress like that, and your not in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, so why not compromise and conform to the way the English dress?

My point about the crazy English fanatics is that they really arent any different from your crazy white woman on the train. Both are equally deplorable.

Multiculturalism is great when it works.. I dont think people living in clusters, isolated from the wider society, is what they had in mind when the decided on multiculturalism. If they Europeans have to live with Muslims, shouldnt the Muslims also try to live with the Europeans?

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Huma

It's not understandable why any European should have a problem with other cultures when they're the ones boasting about being a free, tolerant society that gives equal rights and religious freedom to all.

Actually, it is understandable b/c global Islamists want to impose their way of life on everyone else in EU. So, they will use and abuse the systems and freedoms afforded by western societies to undermine the very countries they live in. Tolerance and acceptance of differences is a hallmark of free societies, but that doesn't mean intolerance and violence should be accepted as part of diversity.

[Le_Pakistan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Med911

Its a very simple point... Perhaps their concerns, or their fears are irrational, but fear usually is irrational. But for them, the growing numbers of foreigners, entire cities with neighborhood exclusively populated by minorities, particularly people who do not want to assimilate, that to them is a cause for alarm. All im saying is we should try harder to assimilate and adapt to the cultures we live in, and try to understand that the concerns of white or any other group whos cities and towns we decide to live in, have as much right to feel threatened as we do.

For example, must Muslim men walk about with terribly unkempt beards and dressing is if they just stepped of the plane from 7th century Arabia? Its not mandatory for you to dress like that, and your not in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, so why not compromise and conform to the way the English dress?

My point about the crazy English fanatics is that they really arent any different from your crazy white woman on the train. Both are equally deplorable.

Multiculturalism is great when it works.. I dont think people living in clusters, isolated from the wider society, is what they had in mind when the decided on multiculturalism. If they Europeans have to live with Muslims, shouldnt the Muslims also try to live with the Europeans?

Tell me, what is the official English dress code?

If somebody is dressed a certain way (not offensive for anyone) and that person is causing you no harm, then why do you even care?

And if somebody is dressed according to the sunnah, then good for him/her. Usko sawaab milna hai. Why do you feel that as a threat?

[Huma_1]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Shamraz_Khan

Actually, it is understandable b/c global Islamists want to impose their way of life on everyone else in EU. So, they will use and abuse the systems and freedoms afforded by western societies to undermine the very countries they live in. Tolerance and acceptance of differences is a hallmark of free societies, but that doesn't mean intolerance and violence should be accepted as part of diversity.

Then feel free to protest against those extremists but don't be telling everyone else that they need to get rid of their shalwar kameez and beards. Waise toh hum baray moral banay phirte hain or tolerance itni si bhi nahin hai khud mein.

[rommel]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Huma

And now you’ve just confused me more by calling it “bile spitting” on one hand and “valid concerns” on the other. Over 90% of the population in UK is White British and you’re telling me that their identity is under threat because of <10% of people with different ethnic/cultural backgrounds?

you are correct with your facts

Demography of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WHite British population is 91% but hey lets not facts get in the way of scaremongering and racism from these deluded coconuts who think the Mazlims are taking over.

If someone had tattoos all over their face and piercings all over whats left on their face these buffoons would not blame secularism or democracy they would have 0 problem with it, but if a "dangerous terrorist evil non white halal eating 5 time praying mazlim wears a burqa oh no world is gonna end, run for your life.

This is the type of hypocrite you are dealing with.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Tell me, what is the official English dress code?

If somebody is dressed a certain way (not offensive for anyone) and that person is causing you no harm, then why do you even care?

And if somebody is dressed according to the sunnah, then good for him/her. Usko sawaab milna hai. Why do you feel that as a threat?

Pants and a shirt, not a laundry bag... Pretty obvious i THINK.

The Burqa is offensive to many, infact, a reason for it being banned in France.

Dress the way you like, but dont be surprised if you dressing a particular way alienates you from the wider society... If our aim is to assimilate into our chosen society, then how do you serve that purpose by looking like OBL? This isnt the Middle East and there is nothing in Islam that says you are a better Muslim by dressing that way, so why in the world should you?

Sunnah says we should dress like we're living in the 7th century? We should also be riding camels in that case. If you really are so obsessed with observing every aspect of Sunnah, then by all means, move to Saudi Arabia (dont expect citizenship). Try to be a little reasonable. There are things we can be somewhat flexible with. This rigidness in the way one HAS to dress seems really counter intuitive to the message of Islam.

A person wearing jeans and a tee shirt, or even a woman not wearing a hijab or niqab is no less worthy then those who do. I should think your deeds determine your value in Islam, not the way you choose to dress.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Then feel free to protest against those extremists but don't be telling everyone else that they need to get rid of their shalwar kameez and beards. Waise toh hum baray moral banay phirte hain or tolerance itni si bhi nahin hai khud mein.

Tolerance means you TOLERATE it.. We aren't saying throwing these men to the grounds and forcefully shave of their beards or yank those burqas of women. We are saying, they, the ones who insist on sticking out like sore thumbs consider the fact that they have chosen to live in a Western country, not the Middle East or Pakistan. Hence, I think it would be wiser to conform to some of the customs of the land you chose to inhabit, and that includes your preference in clothes. That being said, we cant do anything about people wanting to dress like that. To each his own, but then don't be surprised if people are less then welcoming to you when you make no effort to assimilate into their culture.

[Huma_1]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

I'm disappointed in your narrow-mindedness, Med. I expected better from someone who was just yesterday going on about human rights and now you're telling people to sod off elsewhere just because they choose to wear a hijab/abaya or keep a beard which they have every right to do so. Or isay bari khoobi se compromise or integration ka naam diya jaa raha hai. Nice. I'm out of here.

[Huma_1]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

To each his own, but then don't be surprised if people are less then welcoming to you when you make no effort to assimilate into their culture.

Thanks for your concern but I don't need to be worried about that because thankfully the majority of fellow Europeans are very welcoming and they actually back up my right to wear a hijab or whatever. I've managed to live here for over a decade very peacefully and successfully Alhumdulillah, integrating very well with the general population without having to change who I am.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

I'm disappointed in your narrow-mindedness, Med. I expected better from someone who was just yesterday going on about human rights and now you're telling people to sod off elsewhere just because they choose to wear a hijab/abaya or keep a beard which they have every right to do so. Or isay bari khoobi se compromise or integration ka naam diya jaa raha hai. Nice. I'm out of here.

Narrow minded would be if i demanded they be forced to remove such attire. Im not advocating for a law that bans any form of clothing or any sort of attire. I simply believe in when in Rome do as the Romans (within reason). Thats not narrow minded, thats pragmatic and respectful of your host country.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Thanks for your concern but I don't need to be worried about that because thankfully the majority of fellow Europeans are very welcoming and they actually back up my right to wear a hijab or whatever. I've managed to live here for over a decade very peacefully and successfully Alhumdulillah, integrating very well with the general population without having to change who I am.

Yeah, thats because the majority are very accepting and extremely TOLERANT. Thats credit going to them, not to the people who insist on dressing as though they still live in Pakistan. On our part, I think we can return the generosity by at least trying to conform to atleast certain aspects of Western society. Hijab is ok, but I dont see much in the way of assimilation when your wlking around in a Burqa or sandles a long beard (even saw a few turbans) with shalwar or the long Arabian gown (Thawb?)...

[picoico]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

@Chairman CEO

no magic bullet. Over a looong period of transition one of two things happen. Either most Muslims gradually turn against the extremist jihadis that are ruining their lives and thus manage to wipe out the latter or many western countries become gradually more polarized against Muslims in general and make every Muslim’s life in such countries very difficult. If the former happens great. If the latter happens, Muslims in the western countries either leave that country or their religion.

What else can be the solution!

I appreciate the answer, but my reference to a “final solution” was to a very real conceptthat was applied in Europe last century to another ethnic group that was deemed a “problem”.

[Le_Pakistan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Oh dearest medy. If you are going to preach about tolerance and respect, atleast apply it to yourself first. The way you talk, or should I say mock (and look down) about people with beards and long attires reeks of arrogance and inferiority complex. The irony that the person who screams 'respect' and 'tolerance' the most in this thread, is the only one who is intolerant.

Till Britain doesnt order it's citizins to only wear according to the british dresscode (whatever that might be) till then people are free to wear whatever they want. Btw if that day ever comes, then many natives wont be happy about it too.

You say that you are not narrowminded becuase you are not demanding them to take off their attire.
Good, then the racist who thinks all blacks are lowlife creatures and worth nothing isn't narrowminded aswell because he isn't demanding them to kill themselves.

You are not doing as the romans, you are being even more Roman than the romans. Desi moonh walaithi cheekhan. Na aar da, na paar da.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Oh dearest medy. If you are going to preach about tolerance and respect, atleast apply it to yourself first. The way you talk, or should I say mock (and look down) about people with beards and long attires reeks of arrogance and inferiority complex. The irony that the person who screams 'respect' and 'tolerance' the most in this thread, is the only one who is intolerant.

Till Britain doesnt order it's citizins to only wear according to the british dresscode (whatever that might be) till then people are free to wear whatever they want. Btw if that day ever comes, then many natives wont be happy about it too.

You say that you are not narrowminded becuase you are not demanding them to take off their attire. Good, then the racist who thinks all blacks are lowlife creatures and worth nothing isn't narrowminded aswell because he isn't demanding them to kill themselves.

You are not doing as the romans, you are being even more Roman than the romans. Desi moonh walaithi cheekhan. Na aar da, na paar da.

Oh please...

Do you even know the definition of "Tolerance" or "Respect." These are just words you learned along the way, and u like to spout so as to make yourself appear fair mined and non critical.

I doubt you even read my comment, choosing instead to ignore the content.

Let me make it clear for you as obviously you don't like long sentences.

1. I dont advocate for enforcement of any law that prohibits the way people choose to dress. i MENTIONED this over and over, but you apparently are to emotional and to hot headed to actually THINK. So calm down.

2. I think living in a foreign land means you try to conform to local custom and tradition.

3. If Europeans have to accept Burqas and the OBL look, then we should be just as willing to accommodate them and try to adapt to their culture instead of imposing ourselves on their culture. At the very least, we should understand that as we dislike having Western culture infitrate our customs, they too dislike Muslim customs infiltrate their customs.

4. Mutual understanding is WHAT WE NEED. There is something wrong with a situation in which one group feels entitled to their customs, while shunning all aspects of their hosts' customs. So Muslim who says I hate Western Culture and refuse to take part in this society is not a racist at all, but an Englishmen who says he wants to see people assimilate in English society is?

Your refrence to black people is irrelevent to the debate. People cant change their race. However there are things that they can change, and your attire, at the very least is one of them. Islam doesnt say you HAVE TO wear this or that, so why even choose to wear it?

Tolerance for supposed Muslim customs is fine, but that does not mean we have to forget our manners...

Think of it this way. If you go to someones house where the custom is to remove your shoes, and you decide to keep them on, your host will let you keep them on and TOLERATE it. On the other hand, if wearing your shoes is NOT something incumbent upon you, then dont you think removing your shoes out of respect for your host is nice gesture and respectful? The problem is we not only demand to keep our shoes on, but then scream racism if someone asks us to remove them.

[Le_Pakistan]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Yes please...

Yes I am aware of the definitions of these concepts. You are the perfect example that creaming them is easy, but sticking to them a tid bit difficult.

I have read your comments. All of them.

Thanks for typing down not too long sentences, it does make reading easier and clear.

1. Me emotional and hot headed? Dude, I even called you 'dearest'.

Since you don't advocate such a law, and there is no such law, and the traditional dresscode is what people used to wear in the beginning of last century, then what is your problem?

1. Agree. But you don't need to give up your own customs and traditions.

2. If that is what you call the OBL-look, then you must be a carrier of the Breivik look?

And since when is dressing a certain way equal to imposing yourself on the other culture? By the way, you still didn't tell me what traditional british cloths are. Because T-shirt and jeans definitely arent.

1. I no where mentioned anything about this.

The example in your last paragraph is not in line with the topic on hand. It would have if there were expecxtations and certain rulings for immigrants to dress accordingly, which there aren't.

Anyways, we are going in circels now, I am calling it a night.

[psyah]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Narrow minded would be if i demanded they be forced to remove such attire. Im not advocating for a law that bans any form of clothing or any sort of attire. I simply believe in when in Rome do as the Romans (within reason). Thats not narrow minded, thats pragmatic and respectful of your host country.

Peace Med911

That is a cliche, over used and void of wisdom ... It is designed for the sheep among us ... It is another way of saying "be a sheep" ... No, when in Rome, be more Roman than them in their virtues and lead them in that way, and less Roman than them in their ills and show them their folly thereof ... As Muslims in the non-Islamic countries we should be flag bearers for Islam not people who hide in the crowd.

[Med911]

Re: British Soldier Beheaded in London in busy street

Peace Med911

That is a cliche, over used and void of wisdom ... It is designed for the sheep among us ... It is another way of saying "be a sheep" ... No, when in Rome, be more Roman than them in their virtues and lead them in that way, and less Roman than them in their ills and show them their folly thereof ... As Muslims in the non-Islamic countries we should be flag bearers for Islam not people who hide in the crowd.

lol.. void of wisdom?!?! I go to someones house and then insist on doing things as I see fit and ignoring their customs? Its only void of wisdom for someone who arrogantly believes his beliefs and customs trump all others and everyone else should emulate him... And then you wonder why Europeans suddenly dont like Muslims!

Would you prefer to be the wolf who devours all the sheep? Muslims in general, aren't exactly pillars of virtue either. And there are many people in Britain who are just as virtues and are by no means Islamic, nor do they wear any such credentials to identify themselves as such like a beard or a burqa.

If anything, its Muslims who should learn from the Westerners. Those calling for "sharia," whatever the heck that means, fail to see the virtues of a society that while not Muslim, are still far more Islamic then any of the countries they or their parents left. England in particular, the generosity afforded to her citizens through the Welfare system is to be envied.

Does flag bearer mean you shut yourself out of society in exclusive Muslim areas, hide behind burqas and refuse any interaction with the wider society because you dont feel they live up to your standards?

What constitutes being a flag bearer in my definition includes adapting and assimilating those aspects of the British and Western society which do not directly contradict our religious beliefs, in order to better integrate into our chosen society, as a sign of respect for our hosts and their traditions. Your attire for example, is something that you can change. Does Islam not ask you to respect the customs of your hosts? must you look like 7th century bedoin to be considered a flag bearer of Islam?

Adapting to and respecting the customs of the society you live in speaks far more loudly of Islams tolerance and respect for others then a 2 foot long beard and head to toe Burqa.