Re: Arab Tablighis
Your Highness, you can buzz off!
Re: Arab Tablighis
As far as how I see this issue is that Islam spread through the subcontinent and Central Asia through Sufi’s. Its natural that most people revered the people who had converted them but there was no formal name of the group. Abdul Wahhab was born in 1700 and started preaching to get rid Islam from contamination. Shah Waliullah was born in the same period (1703-1762). Based upon his teachings Deobandi school was formed in 1867. I feel there these two movements have a bearing on the other. The people of Pakistan as how I can see originally subscribed to what we call Barelvism now. I feel Deobandism is a reaction against some practices which Barelvis followed. I also feel that add a tinge of Wahhabism to Barelvism and you get Deobandism. Barelvis have been the biggest group of people in the country but now seem to be losing out which they themselves need to address. Sufi’s had preached equality to the people but their followers have again become elites themselves which is one reason.
Re: Arab Tablighis
That article you posted by Our teacher Shaykh Gibril Haddad is a true gem and I can’t “LIKE” it enough … liking it once is not good enough …
I can’t stress enough how important it is to help bring Deobandis and Barelvis together and for both to get rid of their baggage … Adab vs Elitism … Study vs Following … If Deobandis remove the few elements spoken about then I’m sure they will become hugely influential as promoting Islam - The Nadwi school attempted just thing … however I feel Sufism was somewhat neglected by them … which caused Barelvis to eventually leave them.
Re: Arab Tablighis
Peace brother vroom
innovated expressions and concepts that are rightly deemed as tantamount to disparaging the Holy Prophet Muhammad*,
*This is not kufr … and the reason is as so:
tantamount = approaching
disparaging to be kufr has to be by intent to disparage … A poor statement is not kufr in and of itself if it can be first established what the intent is behind that statement.
Lowering the high rank of RasoolAllah (SAW) is bad … I understand that all too well through my learnings from my tariqah … but if the intent is to be prudent about shirk then we cannot accuse those Deobandi brethren of being kaafir … they are merely being too over-protective of shirk that it causes difficulties of adab with RasoolAllah (SAW).
This is the type of fault that Deobandis are entering … regardless of this - I can still follow most of what they teach and I do … but I try to take my belief system from chains connected to Imam At-Tahawi … more closely to source … I try to avoid anti-Deobandi polemics … better to go to source …
Re: Arab Tablighis
Nearly all Barelvi books are polemical - showing how either Wahabis or Deobandis are wrong so I think it is not right to conclude that Deobandis are the reactionary group … however, I do agree that Barelvi beliefs were there before Deobandi forms and that is the reason for the Barelvi polemics … When religion becomes political then we get problems - because then it become a game of getting adherents and not about getting to the truth and submitting to it.
Re: Arab Tablighis
looking for that would be kufr
ulema, loads of them, same time
Psyah dont kid yourself
No no you have gone to pot. fact they misunderstood something about shirk is wahabi problem which they embraced. for verdict purposes same as above!
do you what you want
To be a Muslim you have stay inside the shariah, joining a group worse then salafis is bad, very bad
Re: Arab Tablighis
They are not offshoot of deobandis, they are deobandis predominently becuase of origins in south asia but accept all muslims in their ranks.
Not naqshbandi but chishtee in tariq mostly.
Re: Arab Tablighis
Thank you for the corrections I agree - TJ are Deobandis (but will differ from certain Deobandi groups in political involvement and they are generally non-combatant people, whereas other Deobandis do engage in military efforts).
Also very important - they are mostly Chishtees - however, Naqshabandi was the silsila of Shah Waliullah - who is like a forerunner.
Re: Arab Tablighis
They are an offshoot in a sense that not all Deobandis are tablighis.
Re: Arab Tablighis
I think Brelvis need to stop acting like zealous takfiris and go back to tassawuf…until then their claims of being the true lovers of the Prophet (PBUH) are empty and hollowed.
I don’t know much about Deobandis except that they come across as patriarchal and wahabified people.
Tablighis may dress up and act like pious people but they lack knowledge, or they don’t focus on scholarly works. The stories they tell may lure simple minded people but they lack reasoning and depth for the sound minds.
Re: Arab Tablighis
its calmed down a bit on this thread may be we can now look at something
I was not willing to discuss this with Psyah before, to protect him from the risk of apostatizing but its been brought up and Psyah has gone the wrong way on it. So my reason for declining previously is gone. But there is takfir on these issues, and to uphold the takfir is not being takfiri, takfir applies where it does. There is no ‘‘oh we are upon this and we feel ok, or there is loads of people upon this so nobody should apply takfir because it is takfiri’’ Takfir applies where it does, and if it was wrongly applied it bounces back to the one who applied it
Tantamount = equivalent in seriousness to; virtually the same as
Intent to disparage is not taken into consideration, with this particular charge. Just saying something bad is kufr
Quran states: If thou dost question them, they declare (with emphasis): “We were only talking idly and in play.” Say: “Was it at Allah, and His Signs, and His Messenger, that ye were mocking?” Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin. (9:65-66)
Translation: Imam Muhammad bin Sahnoon said: There is consensus (ijma) amongst ulama that anyone who insults the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and finds his defects then such a person is “KAFIR”
“…whosoever doubts in Kufr of such a person then he/she commits kufr himself..”
“…**this is “MADHAB OF ALL 4 IMAMS” **Ishaq bin Rahwiyah and others have mentioned this Ijma..”
**Imam Ibn Abideen (rah) **narrates from Allama Ala’i (rah): Whosoever becomes Kafir by abusing any of the prophets then he should first be killed as an Hadd (capital punishment) and his repentance will not be accepted in “Mutlaqqan terms” however If he abuses Allah then his repentence will be accepted because that is amongst the Haqooq of Allah and to abuse the Prophet (Peace be upon him) amongst Haqooq of mankind. Whosoever doubts in the tornment and kufr of such a person then he is Kafir himself/herself [Hashiya Dur ul Mukhtar, (3/440)]
**or he might lower his rank, the honour of his lineage, the extent of his knowledge or his asceticism, or deny a famous matter reported from him which has come by many paths of transmission with the intention of refuting the report,**or say something insolent and ugly or of a cursing nature in respect of him. However, the state of this individual indicates that he does not mean to censure the Prophet nor to curse him but that ignorance, discontent, drunkenness, carelessness, arrogance or hasty speech has led him to say what he has said.
"…The judgement in this case is the same judgement as that applied to the first individual. Such a person is killed without hesitation since no one is excused for disbelief by ignorance or by claiming a slip of the tongue or by any of the things, which we have mentioned if his intellect is basically sound…"
Their Aqeedah had gone bad or had always been bad. shah ismail, upon whom there is less takfir! is not generally remembered as a Kaffir because there was a rumor that he had made tauba before dying. So whoever you are protecting did not even do this. Other scholars may not have given them the chance but Al-Mujadid Ala-Imam did.
There is no tawhid without Risalat, and if another tawhid was invented it would be non muslim. So using protection from Shirk is not an excuse
entering! what now?! this is the reason of their existence, these matters are all from their beginnings and before that in who they took as Imam. You sound like Gibril Haddad, and he is wrong, carefree and a moderate
There is quiet a few so called shaykhs around these days that seem to be moderate and denying what was passed in the past. The reason for this is the increase in deobandi influence, and the decrease in quality of so called celebrity ulema. They are trying to give something that both Sunnis and deobandis would be happy with! a Balancing act for their fame and popularity but that’s not Islam. This is matter which needs the wrong to be forbidden! Takfir if incorrect bounces back, so these shaykhs if they speaking on a matter should know what they are talking about, and be able to apply the Shariah
Re: Arab Tablighis
So any scholar who calls for unity is a moderate, carefree, and wrong. You need to stop hating on others who don’t agree with you. In your posts you posted fatawas openly calling for the killings of other Muslims they don’t agree with. This is not Islam.
Re: Arab Tablighis
Roaring Moulana Touseef has the answer perhaps!
Tablighi Jamaat About Molana Tariq Jameel By Sheikh Tauseef Ur Rehman - YouTube
If you follow this person’s teaching, you will end up believing that Allah made heaven for only few people on earth as he calls 90% of the muslims kafir!
Re: Arab Tablighis
All of these groups Barelvis, Deobandis and Wahabbis have their beefs with each other. But still they have been living together for centuries. During the past few decades Wahhabi beliefs are becoming more centre stage, and hence seeing so much hatred and suffocation around.
Re: Arab Tablighis
This tauseef guy seems to be an extremist guy. I do respect TJ and Molana Tariq Jameel for their work, but I do not like other groups who respresent Deobandis (JUI’s, Taliban and ASWJ/LEJ etc)…
Re: Arab Tablighis
Any scholar who calls for unity is a force for good, unity is not a problem. It is desirable. What is a problem is that a scholar says there was such and such a problem and fails to deliver the Islamic verdict on the issue.
Point noted [that i am standing in a place that is liberal.] Well i am not calling for anyone to be killed, I am calling for people to demand that certain people who said certain things are labelled correctly, with Takfir, when and if people like so called shaykhs speak on the subject. The present day deobandis are not labelled as Kaffirs automatically. No they are Muslims. We are talking about dead people who can not be re-killed but we can distance ourselves from their wrongs. In my view he who fails to criticize them is a Kaffir, and the shayks who criticize them but fail to apply the fatwa that was applied before by the previous shaykhs are misguided
There is Islamic positions that allow for life to be taken. I am not going into all that with you personally. From what you have said it is obvious your stomach may not tolerate it
There is similar expressions in Hadith, and the Quran too. A big gagging order coming along, I can see it - and this is the result of self promotion of extremely moderated shaykhs. This is prevalent in all schools
In these situations the Islamic sentiments (sentiments of Muslims), as recorded in Hadith, are:
‘’…Ya RasoolAllah allow me to chop his head off..‘’
".. “MAY ALLAH’S LANAH BE UPON YOU, IF I EVER HEAR YOU SAYING THIS WORD AGAIN THEN I WILL CHOP YOUR HEADS OFF”
From my prospective, I am calling for a stand against Batil [falsehood]. This might be our last stand left
Re: Arab Tablighis
This, your liking and respect, is a separation of physical threat and non physical threat. Tariq jameel although harmless [other then what may happen if deobandism is taken up] is a joke in many of the things he comes out with. He talks, and talks well but the aqaid that he utters is just as bad as deobandis who pose a physical threat
The point of my reply here is to highlight that deviance in Islamic spheres is not necessarily just judged on physical threat.
Likewise with the militant groups, i can not imagine such groups would be allowed to operate if they were sunnis. It would be other sunnis who put the smack down on such groups. Some of these groups are breeding grounds for nasibis. Such a group would be kaffir in my view. Paying a bit of lip service every now and then is not enough in tackling these groups. I’d expect and demand that these groups excommunicated from any association with Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah forcefully.
Again it seems like anything and everything is ok, as long as they profess belonging to deoband
This is my personal political view, and is not as serious an issue as other issues with deoband. Any one who disagrees with me on this should know that this is not as serious an issue! Things like this are third rate issues
Re: Arab Tablighis
I think you represent a minority in the world - who will get the jannah in the end? The jannah is for them. Rest are bound to go the hell! And by these definitions 95% of the people since the human came into being would go the hell.
Then why Allah created this universe? For me all religions are true. Stop supporting hatred and bloodshed in the name religion or anything else.
And if all these are shirks or whatever? Why do go for Hajj and why pray towards Kaba? Does Allah live there?
Re: Arab Tablighis
Moulana Traiq Jameel is one of the most influential person of our time - he is a very gentle and noble person. He does not spread hatred.
Re: Arab Tablighis
I think you got me wrong
I am giving back to those groups you are describing above. I am offering a Sunni Barelvi view of wahabis and salafis, in the style of them - retribution.
There is islamic issues where it is actually them that are upon falsehood. Who is going to speak against them?
They do not represent Sunni Islam
His aqaid is here and there. Genuine scholars do have a problem with him. Protection of islamic aqaid is from our religion, whether talked peacefully or shown violently