Arab Tablighis

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Arab Tablighis

I cant give you a reason
I dont even think you are genuine in your questions

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Re: Arab Tablighis

If you can't provide a reason then I don't think your objections to them are valid.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

With the passage of time you'd see many children of Barelvis becoming Deobandi's. See around yourself you'll see many people listening to Molana Tariq Jameel's lectures.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

You can only say that when you know they are not valid, not when i fail to explain

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Either way I have yet to see any valid objection. So I will not find them objectionable unless I'm presented with such an objection.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

There are many non hanfi tablighes as well. my colleagues are shafae and hanbali and tableghee. Once ameer of tablighe jamaat in gujranwala was ahl e hadith.

Vroom, there have been other instances where you claimed some thing then denied giving any proof. may ALLAh give you hidayat and make you able to see things beyond maslaki bias.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Oh so thats how you remember it!. dude that kufr was so bad i couldnt even share with you. if you insist i can give you examples under private conditions but ....i'd rather not.

and here my initial claims have not been contested. people wish that i did not say it and they are defending tj but i dont think any proof is required. if your talking about captain - he is just wasting my time, wants to defend tj but can not, so wants to show he tried by asking question which he is not serious on

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Re: Arab Tablighis

And what are your claims? in short 1/2/3

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Ok didnt know that. I have seen some Malayasian/Indonesian kind of though (who are mostly Shafi).

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Just because you can't answer the questions doesn't mean they're not serious. I'm just saying what my experience is with them and that I don't see anything objectionable about them despite everything you've said.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

I don't think Deobandis or Tablighis are part of the orthodox Islam...they are more like Ahle Hadith.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

That's because I wanted multiple perspectives on this topic.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Peace brother vroom

Does your way of Islam not teach you to have a good opinion of others? How can you say defending something is wrong? That is always the default position. Among your initial claims is that TJ are a recruiting arm for Deoband school - that is refuted ... Please accept that.

Secondly ... Deoband is not so wrong - it is chiefly misunderstood ... lots of people accuse some writings of saying things that are not really true. Yes ... I agree that there are some "adab" issues in the way certain things are phrased ... but not enough to earn so much opposition, which I think it worse.

Deobandi be'adabi ilfazon mein, lekin ikhlaq mein nahein, kya Barelvion se seekhen ge wo, jin ki ilfaaz bohat aala lekin pesh aa te hein battameezi se?

Ustadh wo hai - jo narmee se, haqeeqat or hikmat se baat karre.

A sign of true Sunnah is the one who behaves like RasoolAllah (SAW) - merciful and kind to others.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

But they are all part of Ahl-us-Sunnah Wal-Jamma' are they not? According to the scholars who you follow ... what do they say?

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Re: Arab Tablighis

No ... I forgot to leave her money ...

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Re: Arab Tablighis

nothing i have said has been refuted
and for you to be defending those ibarats, well well. upto 400 of our ulema have disagreed with you. dont do it

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Tablighi Jamaat are an offshoot of the Deobandi movement. Deobandis are Sunni-Maturidi in doctrine, Hanafi in fiqh, and Naqshbandi in Tariqa. They have refuted several modern Indian-Subcontinent heresies and the Wahhabi movement on countless issues, and the Wahhabis have published many books and articles against them and against Tablighi Jamaat. The Deobandis have also authored some of the prominent works of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama`a in commentary of the Holy Qur’an and of the motherbooks of hadith such as Malik’s Muwatta’, Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and the four books of Sunan as well as the proofs of Taqlid and the Hanafi Madhhab, Sira, and Tasawwuf. Their authors’ names figure prominently in the Indian hadith transmission chains of all of our contemporary and pre-contemporary Arab hadith scholars, may Allah have mercy on all of them.

At the same time, unfortunately for the Umma in our day, certain grave errors have crept into Deobandi beliefs and practices themselves, such as the verbatim attribution to Allah Almighty of imkane-kadhib i.e. the “ability to lie” (may He be exalted beyond what they describe!) and similarly ugly, innovated expressions and concepts that are rightly deemed as tantamount to disparaging the Holy Prophet Muhammad, upon him blessings and peace – Allah is our refuge from perdition. Most if not all of these errors originate from the pen of Shah Ismail al-Dihlawi (1193-1246/1779-1830), the grandson of Shah Waliyyullah al-Dihlawi, after he returned from Hajj and began to author works that until now the Deobandi authorities not only have failed to condemn (as is wajib for them), but are actually still keeping on their syllabus and disseminating in all languages. On the other hand they tend to charge the majority of Muslims with lesser contraventions – if that – for example the celebration of the Prophetic Mawlid which the majority of the Ummah deems orthodox but which Deobandis label as innovation (bid`a) in a selective, Taymiyyan style identical to that of Wahhabis. This is why their Sunni detractors in the Indian Subcontinent have called them Wahhabis although, in that part of the world, the term Wahhabi more accurately describes the so-called Ahle-Hadith movement which are a full-fledged non-Madhhabi, anti-Sufi, Najd-affiliated movement.

Our role now is to find bases of unity by analogy with the Prophetic invitation to the People of the Book that they should unite with Muslims in a common monotheism and leave behind whatever cancels it. If we can invite non-Muslims in such a way then we should be even more inviting toward Sunni Muslims who have taken the wrong path on lesser points than the contradiction of monotheism, as grave as those points might be. We should not demonize them as non-Sunnis. We already made it clear eight years ago that the position of most of our common teachers is that there is no difference between Barelwis and Deobandis in the absolute and explicit fundamentals: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=498&CATE=2

I have seen two gifted people embody this position in speech and deed: one is a Barelwi in the US and the other a Deobandi in South Africa. Both have great knowledge, a refined character, and a preference for silence and meticulous hard work. Alas, the rest of our up and coming brethren remain uncommitted to this common ground and are still jockeying to promote themselves as champions of sunnism in the way of identity politics, such as what happened and is still happening, for example, over the issue of love of Ahl al-Bayt. This divisiveness was wrong back then and has even less place in the post-9/11 world.

Love of Allah and His Prophet unites us, it is not a blueprint for schism, nor is there any room for Inquisitions in Islamic tradition. As Imam Ahmad said under the whip of the Mutazila: “al-imtihan bida” (Inquisition is an innovation). We should stop condemning others in the misconceived quest for self-definition. Our true identity is servanthood to our Lord and service to His creation; and the definition of sufism is to accept the shortcomings of others and work with that (Risala Qushayriyya); not disinheriting them and demonizing them in a righteous rage. Not everyone is “either all good or all bad”; only Prophets are immune from sin and infallible. The grandson of the Holy Prophet, Sayyidina al-Hasan (upon our Prophet and his Family blessings and peace), was a rightly-guided Caliph and on Haqq, yet he stepped down from his caliphate for the benefit of unity, which Allah Most High loves more for the Umma than general disunity on the pretext of upholding His Right and the Right of the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace. Can you believe that some fanatic Sunnis at that time attacked al-Hasan b. Abi Talib as a traitor to the Umma? He only replied: “No, I am not a traitor but one who spared the Ummah bloodshed.” Let us work toward the same goal in the Subcontinent and everywhere else. Sunnism is much wider than to be found exclusively under one roof.

The latent characteristic of all of the above groupings is takfirism (declaring other Sunnis misguided, infidels and kafirs) and mutual ostracism which are characteristics of modern-day Khawarij – extremists, defined by Imam al-Nawawi as “fanatic zealots who exceed bounds in words and deeds” (Sharh Sahih Muslim). The worst of them are those who say: “If you do not declare the other side kafir the way we do, then you are one of them.” Instead of looking for 70 excuses to fend off anathema from their brethren they search out a single excuse to invoke it against them, and even against their own teachers! They are purists who claim that “we should not dilute our Deen” which is reminiscent of the fear-mongering of supremacists who claim “we should not dilute our master race.” This is what a perspicuous observer in the UK termed the Salafisation of traditional Islam. This is the Chosen-People ideology which Allah Most High warns against in the Holy Qur’an; and it is He Who protects and guarantees the Deen.

No, we do not declare any of them kafir. Rather, we denounce what is wrong and we enjoin what is right however bitter, without school partisanship; and we say as Allah Most High says and as our well-guided Rabbani elders taught us: {For each there is a direction to which he turns his face. So compete with one another in good deeds. Wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together. Truly Allah has power over all things} (2:148).

And Allah knows best. May He unite us all and take us back to Him as followers of the Sunna and adherents to the Congregation.

Hajj Gibril Haddad

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Here's the development in a nutshell of Deobandi and Barelvi schools ...

British Involvement in India to create a diluting of Islamic traditions started to occur - there was a wave of lessening everything in to metaphoric meanings and secularisation of Islamic thought from real world issues - opting to choose modern techniques and systems, including the economic and penal systems. This created a reaction and the birth of the Deobandi school, influenced by Shah Waliullah ... who was a Hanafi Sunni and Naqshbandi Sufi ... Some of his works were around accommodating some of the modern thoughts in a traditional context ... He was reacting to the situation at hand. Meanwhile, in the Arab world another form of modernisation was taking place where a large amount of text was being wholesale rejected and systematically ignored creating a very black and white form of Islamic interpretation that became the Wahabi movement.

So Deobandis in time pre-date the Wahabis, who in turn pre-date the Barelvi (reactionary) group ... In time Deobandi thought grew and within a few decades the Barelvi school came mainly as a balancing force to counter the Deobandi position. Both the Deobandi and Wahabi position was designed to remove what they felt were "mythological" or "borrowed" concepts from cultures outside Islam. In their attempt to purify Islam and return it to a path of prosperity.

Wahabi movement differed from Deobandi movement in one major aspect - that was secularism ... Deobandis advocated non-secular values - Wahabis advocated secular values and conservatism. Liberal manifestations were being rejected by both.

The Barelvi school was designed to show that traditions should not be rejected wholesale and started to encode a finer balance between practice and traditions than the Deobandi school and tried to maintain the Sufi message without blaming it as the cause of the Muslim demise.

Essentially the Barelvi school is probably closer to the traditions in their dogma, but suffer from elitism which loses the essence of Islam - out of the three Deobandis are more geared towards unification - but they harbour more political motives than the Barelvis. Wahabis are both political and elitist.

In order to make my mind up I will need to read the works of Shah Waliullah, Maulana Gangohi, Maulana Nanautvi, and Maulana Raza Khan ... Regarding Wahabism no further reading is required since I am looking for traditional Islam. Regarding Maulana Raza Khan my own Shaykh praises him so that gives me a lot of incentive to learn about him and his writings ... At the end I feel schools no longer really represent the scholars

I am also looking into the Arab and Turkish forms of Hanafi interpretation ... I would like to settle feeling I have done what I can to be closest to traditional Islam.

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Re: Arab Tablighis

Rubbish

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Re: Arab Tablighis

[QUOTE]
At the same time, unfortunately for the Umma in our day, certain grave errors have crept into Deobandi beliefs and practices themselves, such as the verbatim attribution to Allah Almighty of imkane-kadhib i.e. the “ability to lie” (may He be exalted beyond what they describe!) and similarly ugly, innovated expressions and concepts that are rightly deemed as tantamount to disparaging the Holy Prophet Muhammad, upon him blessings and peace – Allah is our refuge from perdition. Most if not all of these errors originate from the pen of Shah Ismail al-Dihlawi (1193-1246/1779-1830), t
[/QUOTE]

This, underlined, is kufr in the shariah. He admits they do it as a group, not an individual error. Psyah has admitted they do this as a group

The author of this article is lying for them because imkan e khadib came before deoband but he uses it as an example to say what crept in. Not impressed