Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
I know the main discussion is abou his English speaking skills but I would just like to point out some stuff that may be playin a role in the whole argument but might have been missed. You feel that u have been disrespected and put down but it might be the case that it was the other way around and all that temper and talk by him was just him being on the defensive after him being constantly told about how stuff works here (depending on ur tone when u say it and the perceived tone in his head... Condescending maybe? Teamed with u already irritated at his grammar and accent).
U know how we sometimes blow things out of proportion in our head then the words just come out wrong. K English to sahi say bolni nahi aati Aur Canada k system k baray mae kuch pata hae nahi Aur bus deengain maarni Haen. So when u have that going on in ur head I highly doubt that none of that energy would go across in ur words. And like u feel disrespected he must have felt that way too. Infact this must have been like verification for all the insecurities that he might have already felt talking to u as a potential rishta. Ur born and brought up there, maybe ur more well off than him, living in Canada all ur life maybe ur not familiar with living-in-Pakistan drama. He might have said something in a matter of fact way (about his life, or lifestyle or family) and u might have found something so outlandish or wierd that u immediately called him out on it. If u have been communicating with him for a long time then all these tiny straws(just like the ones u have too) might have been added on to the last straw (bad English) and that's why he blew up and told u off. He became defensive and put u down about going and finding some prince Charles. Anyway all this was just to give u a different perspective on the whole thing. And the temper flares that u see might have been in reaction to the kind of things that u said, making him feel that u think he's not good enough for u. I think anyone's ego can take a bashing if the other person feels that ur not good enough for them.
That being said bad English was a deal breaker for me too. I always told my husband k shukar hae aapki English theek thee Warna to shayd Mae na kar daiti. Cuz the other guys in my university who had come directlyfrom Pakistan had really bad grammar!!! The kind u mention in ur rant. The boys mostly always conversed in Urdu. On a lighter note, my hubby said that if I had that punjabi drawl in my Urdu then he would have never sent the rishta lol. Some ppl from his extended family actually said to me k bhabi aapki to Urdu sahi hae. They were expecting the sing song punjabi Urdu and I didn't have that. I didn't know whether I should be offended or pleased. I just went plastic smile hehe. They joked with him on the side (before they had heard me speak) k punjabi larkiyan Jub tuk moo bund rakhain tub tuk achi/khoobsurat lagti haen.
Even now whenever we hear someone talking in the punjabi Urdu accent I always say k Mae aesay bolti to aap kya kartay, and he says k Phir aap yahaan nahi hoti. We have had our language tiffs though. He said stuff like he thought that punjabi language sounded rude... Doesn't have structured grammar like Urdu etc etc all offensive stuff that I did get pissed about. (btw I don't really speak punjabi but I understand it). But it was all miscommunication. I told him u can't judge a language if u don't know it... U don't know punjabi grammar then how can u say its not structured (some stupid punjabi speaking friend said that to him once and he remembered it for life). The rude thingie, I was like how can u call a language rude, he said k aap log tu say baat kartay Haen, there's no aap. (This whole argument, was over several arguments and then the miscommunication finally dawned on me). He actually thought that there is no word for aap in punjabi. Like as if our grandparents would also be spoken to as tu!!!! And I was like omg! Just because our word for aap doesn't sound like the urdu aap doesn't mean there's no word for it! I then told him the subtlety between tenu and taanu and how that means tu/tum and aap respectively. I accepted that ok there's no specific word for tum and it's all just tu, but there's definitely a word for aap! So then I was like u don't even know basic punjabi and then ur tellin me things like punjabi has no structure. Anyway, after that argument he never said it again. I forgot my point here but was just trying to convey something about assumptions and miscommunications!!
Back to university...One of the guys with bad grammar (a really nice decent guy) married a gori (also really nice girl) who was actually after him. She had fallen for him, really liked him.. Kept dropping hints, learnt more about Islam from his circle of friends and him, converted and then later married him. So if someone with bad grammar but a good heart (and education) can be attractive to a gori who doesn't even understand urdu and Pakistani culture and family dynamics, I think it might be something u can look past. Maybe it's not possible after such a big blow up, but for future rishtas Im thinking it's doable.
Also, the ppl saying that u can't make it in US without good english/accent ... Most of those guys from my uni finished masters and PhDs, settled in US and are doing pretty well, even with their bad English (ofcourse somewhat improved over the years). Quite a few of my professors who were not native speakers did not have great language skills (therefore not excellent at teaching) but they had tenure because they were extremely smart and intelligent in their own fields and brought in money/grants/research projects for the university.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
I don't think grammar is the real issue here...its just a "bahana" to get rid of him.
He seems arrogant, self centered and very much in denial.
That being said - I do not think grammar and accents should be a criteria in a partner. Its a superficial thing - similar to weight, complexion and other equally unimportant things.
He would be the father if your kids and passing off that English to them, so yes it is important. You should talk to him on the phone at least once instead of bluntly asking him because our men never like being challenged. Their less than adequate gonads blow up at the thought someone of the weaker sex could challenge them. By the way I think there is a weird trend amongst Pakistanis in the easy including those in UAE to write in broken English even though they can put together a proper English document for work.
PCG - accents and grammar are not hereditary woman.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy’s English speaking skills?
Wow, your husband sounds like a great guy. Of course, it helps if a person is living in a great country like the US that is based on meritocracy and which rewards hard work. I always love reading such success stories of self-made people, like your husband, who work hard and realize their potential even though they were not born with a silver spoon. Thanks for telling us about him. :k:
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
I didn't realise grammar was an inherited trait. : |
Oh, it's also an airborne one. And when contraceptives fail, the resulting offspring must wear face masks and ear plugs in an effort to impede genetics since quarantine for life would be a most impractical solution.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy’s English speaking skills?
Bhai, app kahan se aaye ho? Aur mujhse kya dushmani hai app ki? I’m not judging him for superficial reasons and I don’t think he is academically incompetent. I just wondered about his linguistic skills because he is not a 40+ dad who can’t pick up a new language. And he clarified that where he lives in UAE, there is a large desi population there so when you step out of the house, it almost feels like you’re back in Pakistan. Everyone in his social circle talks in Urdu and apparently, most people at his workplace are foreigners themselves so no one speaks proper English.
English is my second language too. I wasn’t born here. I am not looking for someone perfect…just someone who I’m compatible with. And our arguments and the way he deals with them are suggesting that we are not very compatible. I’m not too nitpicky about his English, but I do mind when he doesn’t address my concerns and treats them as not important.
“If you are so bold enough to make a huge argument over something small…”
How can be so sure that I alone made a huge argument over something small?
“What is a typical Pakistani guy” is a whole other debate that I don’t want to get into right now. Anyway, thanks for your input. I do agree with the friends bit.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
@ Sasha21, you're right, I probably aggravated the argument too. But today I apologized and he didn't. That's a huge turnoff for me. I pointed out to him, you shouldn't have said this or that, and his response to it all was, well you started it. Relationships are about tolerance, forgiveness, and control over your words. This guy has a huge ego.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
...if they share different values than you and are already making statements that are a turn-off in terms of values, then move on, leave this guy.
Yeah, that's easier than done. There will be issues with each and every guy. What I have to decide is how much I'm willing to put up with. Perhaps the English issue I shouldn't have asked him point blank. But his other comments about job and friendships not being important ... or Canada/America not being our own ... what the heck! Hum Canada/America ka khaayen ge, piyen ge, pehne ge but we will also gladly badmouth them. We won't prefer to live in Pakistan but when it comes to making a statement, we will proudly defend our nation and its people.
I am not too westernized. I don't consider myself purely Canadian or Pakistani. The truth is, I'm both and my loyalty is with both countries. Why do we feel superior by badmouthing western qaum and their aazaad culture? I don't like that he has that attitude towards the west but still wants to come here.
IMHO, he sounds like someone who is looking for an opportunity to immigrate, aur aap ko bewaqoof banaa raha hai. If someone told me that they'll come here, but America really isn't their true home, then I'd tell them to save their money for a visa, and not invest in a US citizenship, just stay put where you are Mr.
Yeah that bugs me too. I don't go around badmouthing Pakistani culture. Then why does he feel the need to highlight only the negative aspects of Western culture? If it's that bad, then don't come here and don't raise your future generation here.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
Madz I think there is nothing wrong with what you are suggesting. We all have qualities important to us and I am sure some desi guys back home would prefer their wives to speak good urdu so they can communicate to the in-laws. He does sound like he has a big ego if he cannot accept your apology and offer his own. How hard is it to accept constructive feedback? I am sure you did not mean the comments in a malicious way. If someone told me my urdu was bad I would ask them to tell me how I can improve and would ask them to practice more with me. That goes for anything in life. As an executive I am sure he received a lot of positive and negative feedback from seniors on his way up. So why is it bad to receive feedback from someone close to you, a potential spouse? If he moves to the US and people give him such feedback, how will he take it if he can't take it from his future wife?
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy’s English speaking skills?
I’ve heard those comments before from people who recently come to the west as well. I don’t understand because this gives a bad image for all the good desi citizens who consider it home and want to contribute. I would not want to marry anyone who will want to use my citizenship as an entry point to the country. If you are born in one country and live in another one is your motherland the other is your adopted country you should be loyal to both. We are given so much freedom in the west to do what we like. How many non-Western countries, example in the middle east, offer immigrants residency and citizenship? As a Pakistani citizen can he easily become a UAE citizen after acquiring so much status as an executive of many years? Can he buy property being an executive? Could he do the same in Saudi Arabia or Qatar? In Qatar forget citizenship are near the lowest in the hierarchy to enter even a shopping center. FIFA 2012 QATAR - UNDERCOVER INVESTIGATION - YouTube Yet we will never accuse those places of being racist but we will accuse the West of being racist easily even for small things because we know they will listen and we’ll get justice. But in the West, as long as you meet rules, everyone can become a citizen, regardless of job or status or income. Do you think he disregards Canada and the West because you are a citizen there and he does not want to give those places greater importance? Maybe he should watch this youtube video from a Pakistani channel. Sad but true. Hassan Nisar about Muslim Ummah - YouTube Maybe he wants Canadian citizenship because it may offer greater benefits in uae and gulf countries than just having desi citizenship but not totally sure of that.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
Example of the gems found in the online dating world. This guy shows interest in me, and I have no idea whether I should give this a chance. I want to say no, but then I tell myself, I'm being arrogant and ungrateful, and then I think, wait, is it really too much to expect this guy to string together a proper sentence??
Tell me what you guys think. This is what his profile says:
[LIST]"i looking for good family girl and she try make good home. i have Master of Commerce degree (karachi, pakistan) BBA, MBA completed program in USA . maybe PHD in Business Administration"
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
I'm just curious what MBA program in the US let this guy pass with this kind of writing? I know that question just sounds mean and arrogant, Allah Maaf kare, but one must question the authenticity of people posting online when this is how they write. Or do guys just not think it's important to show their best characteristics when pursuing females? Deliberately setting the bar low? Or they think it's "cool" to write like this, like other sayings in Pakistan that don't make sense like "Kya scene hai" or "Hot bachi"
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
Example of the gems found in the online dating world. This guy shows interest in me, and I have no idea whether I should give this a chance. I want to say no, but then I tell myself, I'm being arrogant and ungrateful, and then I think, wait, is it really too much to expect this guy to string together a proper sentence??
Tell me what you guys think. This is what his profile says:
[LIST]
- "i looking for good family girl and she try make good home. i have Master of Commerce degree (karachi, pakistan) BBA, MBA completed program in USA . maybe PHD in Business Administration"
[/LIST]
I know it's rude but i just laughed at that first sentence. Surely, there must be an urdu option in these matrimonial profiles to give full justice to these profiles. I think you should send a small message to clarify what he means by good family girl. Does he mean from a good family background or someone not planning to pursue further studies after marriage. Is he really sure about the PhD in Business administration or is it really just a maybe? Maybe it happened in his dreams. I apologise in advance if i sound like i am mocking the profile. Maybe it was written like this mocking the idea of matrimonial ads online or on purpose to filter the educated girls who would disapprove in preference for someone who would not notice? There could be many possibilities.
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
I'm just curious what MBA program in the US let this guy pass with this kind of writing? Or do guys just not think it's important to show their best characteristics when pursuing females? Deliberately setting the bar low? Or they think it's "cool" to write like this, like other sayings in Pakistan that don't make sense like "Kya scene hai" or "Hot bachi"
It could be one of those MBA programs which is not really accredited but take a lot of money from international students to help them with job prospects in order to gain citizenship. Well if someone can get offers with less effort then I guess that is what they will put in. Or it could be setting the bar low so people with minimal criteria reply. It could also be showing that they are too cool to put an effort into matrimonial ads. hmm..hot bachi i havent heard that before. Technically to be complete urdu it should be garam bachi..
Re: Am I a horrible person for inquiring about the guy's English speaking skills?
Yes, because a lot of goris don't consider language skills as dealbreakers.
true but i guess PCG meant the fact you would want a deal breaker because of language would maybe more acceptable. Maybe in desi society people think it is superficial to want that.
. What mattar (paneer) that he doesnt have the good grammer, if he has the good hart.