Since Zionism is a cult or disease, I wouldn't know if I am a Zionist.
But if we can get beyond labels and concentrate on views, *I said "I support a 2 state solution with Jerusaleum under International control." That means a Jewish state and a Palestinan state, side by side. That means a lot of giving from both sides. That means Israel is already there and I support its continued existence. That also means that there must be a separate Palestinian state that is totally independent from Israel. **All people should be safe and secure. No killing from either side. No attacks*. No destruction of property or killing of its leaders.
Kinda hard, when Israel won't give up its terrorist ways. It has already violated enough UN sanctions, and continues to do so.
Kinda hard, when Israel won't give up its terrorist ways. It has already violated enough UN sanctions, and continues to do so.
There is no other option left.
No other option than what? More violence? The very thing that has all but destroyed their people and their cause. This is where we differ. I don't support violence from either side.
Arabs attacked Israel right away. So did terrorist attacks against Israelis. So which was first, the chicken or egg? There is no way an unbiased person (let's say someone from another planet) could say *either *side is not at fault and committing terrorism.
They have been fighting each other from the get-go. The difference is that Israel has won most of them because they have been smarter, better organized, funded, educated and united . What is going to change to alter that dynamic?
And btw, if you are holding Israel to UN mandates you must also believe in Israel's right to exist under UN partition.
And the reason for the thread too, i might remind: that the state of Israel and its existance is, was, and will be a zionist movement. Because Jews and Arabs lived in harmony for hundreds and thousands of years.
It was after German offensive was crushed that Zionist leaders had the perfect opportunity to establish a state in the name of Judaism. Their deceptive ways were tailored around the Jewish faith and that is where you think you're supporting a Jewish cause, but you are not.
Orthodox Jews would be the first to hail a formation of a nation in the name of the sacred religion, but they're not content about it. They do believe it violates all accords of the 10 commandments and it goes against the Will of G-d. Their words and beliefs, not mine.
You may beg to differ with me and that's fine because i as you assume have a "soft spot" for the muslims. But that is not the reason for this thread. I did not say anything about muslim ideology at clash with Jewish ideologies initially, neither was the purpose to discuss that.
My source is still up there....whatever i cited, i cited from there.
It's Jews against Israel as well now...and mind you the Rabbis at that too. You'd think they know their religion, i certainly think and hope they do.
Please dn't elevate yourself to the level of a scholar or a rabbi or pretend you can explain others their own religion.
Thank you very much....
Now lets get on with it...either you believe the existance of Israel was/is a zionist movement or it is not. That's what we're discussing here.
Occupied Palestine is already being discussed in WA, take your arguments there, i'm sure they'll serve the purpose better when discussed in the proper medium.
Now lets get on with it...either you believe the existance of Israel was/is a zionist movement or it is not. That's what we're discussing here.
That's it? You started a thread to discuss whether or not the Zionist movement is resonsible for the creation of Israel? You could have read the dictionary to get your answer: a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel
Now, are there Jews find Zionism incompatble with scripture? Yes.
Are there also those who find it a religious mandate and prophecy? Including rabbis? Yes.
Maybe you shouldn't elevate yourself to the level of a scholar or a rabbi or pretend you can explain others their own religion.
^I'm not elevating myself to be anything other than all that i am. Now quit assuming. I don't go jumping all over others religious beliefs. Yet i do see you in anything having to do with religion, offering your rather "expert" opinion. It's apparent to many who's presenting what around here.
And yes that's really all i wanted to discuss that the Zionist movement is the drive for the Existance of Israel, and many zionist supporters with deep pockets support the cause. Many supporting the cause are blinded and deceived by the fact that all acts of Zionists are for the sake of Jewish identity when infact most if not all their acts are in total violation of the Ten commandments. Thanks for all your input.
^I'm not elevating myself to be anything other than all that i am. Now quit assuming. I don't go jumping all over others religious beliefs. Yet i do see you in anything having to do with religion, offering your rather "expert" opinion. It's apparent to many who's presenting what around here.
Do they have mirrors where you live? You are jumping all over Judiasm and their beliefs, saying Zionism violates the principles of Judiasm. Are you a Jew? Yet I am elevating myself when I discuss he topic. Why the double standard? How can you pretend to know their religious mandates/principles?
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And yes that's really all i wanted to discuss that the Zionist movement is the drive for the Existance of Israel, and many zionist supporters with deep pockets support the cause. Many supporting the cause are blinded and deceived by the fact that all acts of Zionists are for the sake of Jewish identity when infact most if not all their acts are in total violation of the Ten commandments. Thanks for all your input.
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Sounds like a World Affairs thread except for your reference to the 10 Commandments. I'm not sure if you know or not, but the 10 Commandments isn't the sum of their scripture or religous beliefs.
No other option than what? More violence? The very thing that has all but destroyed their people and their cause. This is where we differ. I don't support violence from either side.
Arabs attacked Israel right away. So did terrorist attacks against Israelis. So which was first, the chicken or egg? There is no way an unbiased person (let's say someone from another planet) could say *either *side is not at fault and committing terrorism.
They have been fighting each other from the get-go. The difference is that Israel has won most of them because they have been smarter, better organized, funded, educated and united . What is going to change to alter that dynamic?
And btw, if you are holding Israel to UN mandates you must also believe in Israel's right to exist under UN partition.
UN resolutions have not been met, I brought it in to show how futile the UN is. Thus, Israel should not exist.
No Other option doesn't necessarily mean violence is the only option left. You assume too much. This is where we differ.
Excuse me, They are not organized, or educated or united. That is why they were desecrated by the Hezb. They are only funded by big daddy America.
I really don’t feel like going in circles with you. It’s like talking to a wall. Whatever i’m saying is based on what i’ve read from the perspective of those who identify with the fact that Zionism is against Judaism in all its aspects. And they happen to be Rabbis of the faith, and i think they better represent their faith; whereas, you’re going around trying to make others believe your opinion on what the faith “ought” to be.
Didn’t i cite a source for it in my first post? Along with the videos of some of the rabbis condemning the nation of Israel in their own words.. yeahhhhhhh…
Do they have mirrors where you live? You are jumping all over Judiasm and their beliefs, saying Zionism violates the principles of Judiasm. Are you a Jew? Yet I am elevating myself when I discuss he topic. Why the double standard? How can you pretend to know their religious mandates/principles?Sounds like a World Affairs thread except for your reference to the 10 Commandments. I'm not sure if you know or not, but the 10 Commandments isn't the sum of their scripture or religous beliefs.
These are the fundamental concepts behind the Torah, and you claim it has nothing to do with their beliefs?
Honestly, please come back to earth, I think someone's flying a bit too high.
UN resolutions have not been met, I brought it in to show how futile the UN is. Thus, Israel should not exist.
But it does. That is where my view comes from. Not any hotel bombings in the 1940's or zionism being a mandate of Judiasm.
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2. No Other option doesn't necessarily mean violence is the only option left. You assume too much. This is where we differ.
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If we both don't believe violence is the answer then we agree.
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3. Excuse me, They are not organized, or educated or united. That is why they were desecrated by the Hezb. They are only funded by big daddy America.
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They are very much organized, educated and united. AND funded by US. They didn't destroy Hezb because they would have decimated civilian areas. But they could. Easily.
And if I had the time or inclination I’d post videos and quotes from Jews who beleive Israel is very much a part of Judiasm. It’s out there too. Google it.
But it does. That is where my view comes from. Not any hotel bombings in the 1940's or zionism being a mandate of Judiasm.
If we both don't believe violence is the answer then we agree.
They are very much organized, educated and united. AND funded by US. They didn't destroy Hezb because they would have decimated civilian areas*. But they could. Easily*.
These are the fundamental concepts behind the Torah, and you claim it has nothing to do with their beliefs?
Be honest, I didn't say it has nothing to do with their beliefs. I said it's not the sum (total) of their religion. My Torah has over 700 pages, the 10 Commandents take up 1/4 of 1 page.
If you don't remember I suggest you go back to history books. The goal was to expel the Jewish state. They already had their piece of land in the UN parition before they started the wars.
Are you refering to the 1960s war, where Israel didnt surrender from the occupied land. Thus Arabs counter attacked to gain the piece of land back?
Be honest, I didn't say it has nothing to do with their beliefs. I said it's not the sum (total) of their religion. My Torah has over 700 pages, the 10 Commandents take up 1/4 of 1 page.
I said it was the foundation for their torah, is it not?
Just like everything stems from "La illaha illallah Muhammader rasool allah" for the Quran.
This is the root of Islam, just like the commandments are the root of the Torah.
Semi, stop skirting around the questions being asked.
First, what is your definition of Zionism or which one do you believe in?
Second, based on the definition of Zionism that you believe in, do you support Zionism Yes or No?
Zionism is a term that is now used by those against Israel as an evil label. Kind of like the term "liberal" has been hijacked by conservatives in the US.
I have posted the definition of Zionism that I understand: "worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel."
I don't have an opinion on Jewish or Christian scriptual validation for the creation of Israel, you can find scholars who have either opinion. But I do think they deserved a country in their ancestoral homeland as they have been kicked around and discriminated against for hundreds of years. If Muslims had been kicked out of Mecca and had no country of their own today, I would also support a homeland for Muslims in Saudi Arabia.
But whether or not is should have happened, it did. And y point of view on is that Israel now exists, it's too late to dismantle it. I have stated that I support a continuation of a Jewish state, albeit alongside an independent Palestinian state.
So I am not skirting questions, but I refuse to be labeled with any term. I support the continuation of the state of Israel and I'm assuming that makes me a Zionist in the eyes of the haters. But in my view a 2-state solution is not radical.
Zionism is a term that is now used by those against Israel as an evil label. Kind of like the term "liberal" has been hijacked by conservatives in the US.
I have posted the definition of Zionism that I understand: "worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel."
I don't have an opinion on Jewish or Christian scriptual validation for the creation of Israel, you can find scholars who have either opinion. But I do think they deserved a country in their ancestoral homeland as they have been kicked around and discriminated against for hundreds of years. If Muslims had been kicked out of Mecca and had no country of their own today, I would also support a homeland for Muslims in Saudi Arabia.
But whether or not is should have happened, it did. And y point of view on is that Israel now exists, it's too late to dismantle it. I have stated that I support a continuation of a Jewish state, albeit alongside an independent Palestinian state.
So I am not skirting questions, but I refuse to be labeled with any term. I support the continuation of the state of Israel and I'm assuming that makes me a Zionist in the eyes of the haters. But in my view a 2-state solution is not radical.
Ok, reasonable enough from your perspective. Zionism may have started half a century ago to support a movement which will establish a country where people of jewish faith can reside. However now that they have a country, why does the expansion not stop. The prime purpose of a zionist movement was fulfilled years ago, however now it is only associated with an expansionist movement by displacing Palestinians. I too agree on contrary to many muslims that they should be allowed to live in peace however that is not possible with the zionist agenda of today (expansionist).
Ok, reasonable enough from your perspective. Zionism may have started half a century ago to support a movement which will establish a country where people of jewish faith can reside. However now that they have a country, why does the expansion not stop. The prime purpose of a zionist movement was fulfilled years ago, however now it is only associated with an expansionist movement by displacing Palestinians. I too agree on contrary to many muslims that they should be allowed to live in peace however that is not possible with the zionist agenda of today (expansionist).
I don't agree with Israel expanding its borders. There needs to be peace so there is no excuse for Israel occupying pre-1967 Palestinian land.
Along with the videos of some of the rabbis condemning the nation of Israel in their own words.. yeahhhhhhh…