Re: would abortion be allowed if....
I seriously doubt it. This is a Christian concept. (Wallah Alam)
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
I have never heard of any such thing. I don't think it would make sense, because
i) it is unlikely that the rapist would be Muslim or even Ahlul Kitaab
ii) women cannot marry these people
WaSalaam
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
I think its more Jewish (Old testament)
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
Your post suggest otherwise.
I would ignore your other comments. Will be gald to talk about psychology somewhere else. Emotional trauma is valid but never enough reason to cause murder. Now post-partum blues is different process and occurs regardless of being raped of giving birth to legitimate child.
After a certain time, abortion is considered murder. One important distinction between a viable product of conception from being non-viable is heart beating.
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
First we need to be clear which school of thought it belongs to what i said.
I never said she should marry the rapist.
I said its an option if all things are also considered and most importantly, the will of the woman. If not...........then punish the rapist.
I am not going to give the list of benefit of this kind of approach. Obviously the emotions are taking over the discussion and not the objectivity.
Again, a rapist is a criminal and does not deserve mercy from anyone but the victim.
The fetus/child has no fault in it and beyond a certain time it MUST NOT be aborted. Thats murder.
Those who say the murder of soul need to say something about an innocent life as well. Afterall it has woman's physical contribution (genes) as well.
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
Deedawar, I want to know where exactly you came up with this bright idea and what can be the “benefits” from this arrangement. There is no point to “social benefit” if one is goign to be miserable for the rest fo thier life, and I dont see how someone who is married to the man who violently raped her and forced her to have a child, can live a life of “benefits.” 
You’re right this is an emotional discussion, because it is an emotionally charged issue. Nothing in this world is PURE objectivitity..Nothing is black-and-white.
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
Even if it is applicable to less than one percent we can save two lives:
Only if she agrees and all other factors meet such as similar background etc.
The child gets the father and becomes his responsibility as well.
State makes sure he does that.
She gets help raising the kid and a man who has repented.
Now move on......this is not the major issue of this discussion.
Saving life of innocent must be the objective for everyone in the society.
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
I think that the previous poster may be talking about financial benefits.
WaSalaam
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
i looked up some articles on rape victims marrying their attackers and i found this article … oh and sara you’re right the concept of marrying the attacker comes from the Old testement
Ginny mentioned a report about yet another incident involving the oppression of a Muslims woman by a kangaroo court full of ignorant local elders, this time in India. The local assembly demanded that a woman raped by her father-in-law separate from her husband and marry the rapist, after leaving home and staying away for seven months and ten days. Where they got this bizarre ruling from is unknown to me, but the All India Muslim Personal Law Board overturned the ruling, saying it had no basis in the Shari’ah.
From IslamOnline:
The councils order is totally against the teachings of Islam, which rule that a victim of rape should remain in her home and defend her rights along with her husband to whom her marriage is still valid, according to local Shari`ah Section. The councils order to the woman to stay away for seven months and 10 days to become pure was also baseless and has no backing in the Noble Quran or the Sunnah (Prophetic tradition). Islamic teachings also call for inflicting no punishment on the raped woman.** Rather she should be treated with dignity and honor."**In the Hanafi school, the main school of Islamic law followed in India (with the exception of some southern and coastal regions), including Uttar Pradesh where this incident happened, sexual advances automatically make the ancestors and descendents of both participants (willing or otherwise) unlawful to each other. Thus, the rape of the woman by the father-in-law would make the marriage invalid automatically. However, by unanimous consensus (not just in the Hanafi school), the consummated marriage between this woman and her husband would in any case make any marriage between this woman and her father-in-law unlawful - which means that the council has no business ordering to marry the man who raped her.
People may assume, because there is an order in the Old Testament for rape victims to marry their attackers, that Islam has the same provision - it doesn’t. Neither is it lawful for anyone to accuse a woman of fornication if she doesn’t bleed on her wedding night. It seems that some people assume that religions and religious laws must invariably be full of irrational and oppressive statements, and this assumption is sometimes found in Muslims also - notice in Shaikh Nuh Keller’s book Port in a Storm that, in advocating a south-western qibla in North America, people seem to posit a “fiqh world” which is flat, knowing that the real world is a sphere. Islam just is not like that.](“http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-06/16/article01.shtml”)
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
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Re: would abortion be allowed if…
^ Above post talks about forceful marriage.
Bold words to ponder. Only willful marriage is a valid relation.
Some people need to read carefully I guess and not dwell on useless argument.
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
please find out the gestational age of when the following events occur
- Implantation
- heartbeat
- rulign on when a namaz e janaza is expected if a miscarriage happens
look at the difference in those dates and then compare it with your statements.
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
right then, and this ‘certain time’ varies based on rulings by different scholars. While one school of thought may consider heartbeat as the cutoff point, other schools may consider the first trimester as the allowable timeframe.
In the end, its not the word of god, or the word of the prophet which is explicitly stating this, therefore the difference in perspectives.
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
1) Implantation 2) heartbeat 3) rulign on when a namaz e janaza is expected if a miscarriage happens
look at the difference in those dates and then compare it with your statements.
already did.
In fact, I just read someone's doctoral thesis on the Islamic view of Abortion.
As shown above, there are differences of opinion in what constitues a living fetus. Based on the hadith that I have read, I am convinced that life begins on implanations. Family members who have had miscarriages have prayed namaz e janaza when the embryo died a few days after implanation.
WaSalaam
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
Implantation occurs way way before a heartbeat genrally just a few days beyond fertilization. so if its a heartbeat that you consider as a cut off point than thats way after implantation, if its implantation, then we can already see that you and deedawar have diff perspectives, just like there are others around.
while your relatives may have prayed namaz e janaza for a 2 week embryo, other schools of thought place the need for namaz e janaza much much later.
also the time when you have to actually give the child a name is when the child is born and can breath and make a sound according to some schools of thought.
in the end, all talk aside, the point remains that an abortion is allowed in a certan timeframe and that the timeframe varires between diff schools of thought so there is no consensus on it, and one can go ahead as long as its seems logical.
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
and as far as your relatives doign namaz e janaza for a few weeks old embryo here is some guidance that they could have benefitted from. I will post the link for this as well. Janaazah and Burial Talimul-Haq Part 10
A Mayyit is one who was born ALIVE and then passed away. It must be named and Ghusl, Kafn and Janaazah must be performed.
A STILL BORN child should be named, given Ghusl and wrapped in a piece of cloth, (NO Kafn) and then buried.
In the case of a miscarriage, if the limbs are formed, then too, it will be named, given Ghusl, wrapped in a piece of cloth and buried just as a still born child.
There is NO Janaazah Salaat for still born babies.
If the limbs are NOT formed, no name will be given and there will be NO Ghusl. The malformed child should just be wrapped in a piece of cloth and buried.
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
I think many in this thread would feel different if they were in that given situation. My personal opinion is that if it's well known before the fact that a child will be born with a severe disability which would cause him to suffer his/her whole life, abortion would be a good idea.
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
while your relatives may have prayed namaz e janaza for a 2 week embryo, other schools of thought place the need for namaz e janaza much much later. also the time when you have to actually give the child a name is when the child is born and can breath and make a sound according to some schools of thought.
in the end, all talk aside, the point remains that an abortion is allowed in a certan timeframe and that the timeframe varires between diff schools of thought so there is no consensus on it, and one can go ahead as long as its seems logical.
I agree completely.
As I said previously in this thread, people don't agree on what constitues dead / alive, abortion / not abortion. I was simply saying that according to my interpretation of sources I have looked at, Abortion of an implanted embryo is haraam.
WaSalaam
Re: would abortion be allowed if…
All I know is that they contacted a qualified Muslim scholar in order to decide, I am not aware of the rest of the details.
WaSalaam
Re: would abortion be allowed if....
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I must clarify that ONE of the sign of life is heartbeat (which can be detected by ultrasound etc.) and its really would be murder if abortion is performed after that without valid medical reason.
BTW heart beat starts at 6 weeks of gestation and HCG level in blood can tell even earlier that the tissue is alive. (HCG is around 20,000 ).
So, unless the HCG level is dropped or flattens out..the tissue is alive and a potential human being.....and action by anyone to destroy it vluantarily is murder.
Mental stress/trauma or will of the woman does not count...simply to avoid murder based on woman's word alone that she is under stress. I am not being judgemental here or against women, just being objective so an innocent life is not destroyed.
What my friend mr. faudia described is different situation which is about spontaneous abortion or better term as miscarriage/still birth etc. for natural reasons or accidents etc.
Deliberate abortion without valid medical reason is murder at any stage!