[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
The other reason could be that "historians" in Pakistan "think" that Islam was helped by these rulers, may be thats why they "glorify" those rulers.
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Then according to teachings of Islam and facts I quoted , either these "historians " are anti-Isalamic or failed historians. And its duty of true muslims to teach them , that they are not serving Islamic nation of Pakistan but their biased thinking. They do not have right to alter the basics of Islam according to their thinking. I hope you would agree on this with me !
PS: I know , you are just giving one possible explaination and you can not do much about it. But sure people on this forum can start thinking, how these people have acted about such things without being rational.
Why can't you guys answer a simple question without fuzzing things up? What are ashamed of or hiding? I will ask, this time a bit more bluntly:
If Islam expects Muslims to destroy places of worship of other religions then say it expects so. If not admit that those Muslims who break idols and destroy(ed) temples are sinners in the eyes of Islam and openly condemn them.
Which is it?
If Islam is a tolerant religion Ghazni and the like are sinners. If you're calling these morons heroes for any reason, then you are condoning those who destroyed Babri mosque. remember that.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Muslims condemn destruction of Hindu temples by
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Honestly I don't remember who came from where and who was born where. I don't even remember who did what. To me if they had done a great job to religion I could've remembered that.
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please tell me one thing. what is being taught in pakistani schools as history. pobably u r not the right person to answer this. but somebody else may satisfy my curiousity.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
...
If Islam expects Muslims to destroy places of worship of other religions then say it expects so. If not admit that those Muslims who break idols and destroy(ed) temples are sinners in the eyes of Islam and openly condemn them.
[/quote]
Now I am getting tired of telling. Listen for one last time from me, ISLAM does not EXPECT or TELL you to destroy places of worship. Now repeat it 1000 times so you can perhaps understand.
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Which is it?
[/quote]
It is YOU.
[quote]
If Islam is a tolerant religion Ghazni and the like are sinners. If you're calling these morons heroes for any reason, then you are condoning those who destroyed Babri mosque. remember that.
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so many people here have already said that NO QURAN DOESN'T TEACH OR EXPECT US TO DESTROY OTHER PLACES OF WORSHIP, BUT INSTEAD WE ARE ORDERED TO RESPECT THEM.
YES, WE CONDEMN WUT THESE RULERS (INVADERS) DID, THEY DIDN'T DO A FAVOUR TO ISLAM, BUT GAVE IT A BAD NAME.
let me say it again, ISLAM TEACHES US TOLERANCE TOWARD OTHER RELIGION. and these invaders were not doing any service to Islam and according to our teachings of Islam, these invaders defy every teachings of Islam.
Now, why are they upheld in Pakistan. well its unfortunate that they are. i think the reason is simply because they were Muslims and someone in our history (history of Pakistan) didn't want them to be shown as evil invaders.
ok do i need to post again to answer your questions aravamudhan one more time? plz dont' make me. i can't make it simpler then this.
Contrary to the general belief that Mahmud Ghaznavi was a Hindu-killer or destroyer of Hindu religious places, he was extremely liberal towards them. His army consisted of a large number of Hindus and some of the commanders of his army were Hindus. Sonday Rai was the Commander of Mahmud's crack regiment and took part in several important campaigns with him. The coins struck during Mahmud's reign bore his on the one side and the figure of a Hindu god on the other.
Not only Mahmud Ghaznavi but his successors also were great patrons of Hindus. In fact some of the historians of the early period feel that the main cause of the fall of the Ghaznavid Empire was their excessive reliance on Hindus and the appointment of Hindus to positions of great responsibility. When in 1034 A.D. - 426 A.H., the Governor of Lahore, Ahmed Nial Tagin was suspected of rebellion, Sultan Masud Ghaznavi sent General Nath, a Hindu, to crush him. When Nath was killed in the fighting, Masud sent another of his Hindu generals, Tilak, who succeeded in killing Nial Tagin by treachery. This is the story of the Ghaznavids who are generally considered Hindu-killers.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
Why can't you guys answer a simple question without fuzzing things up? What are ashamed of or hiding? I will ask, this time a bit more bluntly:
..................................
.
[/QUOTE]
We are not ashamed of anything. We have a glorious past which we are proud of!!!! You should be ashamed of your present. The way you treat Muslims and Christians of India today is despicable.
All the great heroes - Ghaznavi, Abdali, Ghouri did not come to kill or loot. They were in India to liberate the lower caste Hindus from the tyrany of Brahmans. The Dalits are still opressed. You used to burn women alive (Satti). We liberated you and taught you humanism. Even today you treat each other as untouchables.
Muslim warriors were not angels but they were in no way involved in all the junk you are talking about. You are taught lies in your history books, to prove a case that you are the most glorious nation on earth. Glorious my foot! Had you been so great you would have ruled India all this time. Even though Muslims ruled India and contributed so much to its culture, arts, language, architecture, but you still regard them as invaders. Don't forget that Muslims rulers were so generous that hardly was there any time when Hindus were not included in the Government.
And finally, we are a separate nation. Its hard for you to understad this! The moment a person becomes a Muslim he becomes a part of a nation which spreads from one corner of the world to the other. Indian or whatever, that becomes secondry. Our faith comes foremost. Pakistan was since centuries and is a separate nation and will be a separate nation. Our beliefs are totally opposite. Even when we lived together in India, we were never one! Our brother decided to stay in a separate home in the form of Bangladesh, fine; but we are still one nation. Not only us but from Morocco to Indonesia we are one nation!
Do try to look at Islam without any bias and with an open mind. May God guide you to truth.
We are not ashamed of anything. We have a glorious past which we are proud of!!!! You should be ashamed of your present. The way you treat Muslims and Christians of India today is despicable.
All the great heroes - Ghaznavi, Abdali, Ghouri did not come to kill or loot. They were in India to liberate the lower caste Hindus from the tyrany of Brahmans. The Dalits are still opressed. You used to burn women alive (Satti). We liberated you and taught you humanism. Even today you treat each other as untouchables.
Muslim warriors were not angels but they were in no way involved in all the junk you are talking about. You are taught lies in your history books, to prove a case that you are the most glorious nation on earth. Glorious my foot! Had you been so great you would have ruled India all this time. Even though Muslims ruled India and contributed so much to its culture, arts, language, architecture, but you still regard them as invaders. Don't forget that Muslims rulers were so generous that hardly was there any time when Hindus were not included in the Government.
And finally, we are a separate nation. Its hard for you to understad this! The moment a person becomes a Muslim he becomes a part of a nation which spreads from one corner of the world to the other. Indian or whatever, that becomes secondry. Our faith comes foremost. Pakistan was since centuries and is a separate nation and will be a separate nation. Our beliefs are totally opposite. Even when we lived together in India, we were never one! Our brother decided to stay in a separate home in the form of Bangladesh, fine; but we are still one nation. Not only us but from Morocco to Indonesia we are one nation!
Do try to look at Islam without any bias and with an open mind. May God guide you to truth.
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this is what i mean when i say that pakistan is trying to disown its indian roots. these people now dont even acknowledge that past. they consider themselves descendents of gaznavi, abdali and ghori.
and the muslim nation that u r talking about is an idea that has been discarded by so many people on this forum itself. if bangladesh was like a brother to u, why did they break away? why is kuwait an enemy of iraq? why r kurds fighting for a separate nation? why is there so much shia-sunni voilence in pakistan?
and why does your talk of liberating opressed people in india sound so much like the americans talk that u so despise.
about opression of women, u better not talk about it. charity begins at home.
What Indian roots are you talking about? How can we disown something we never owned!
India itself comprises many types of races. Aryans......... So how can you say "Indian" origin. I never say I am Pakistani origin in the real sense. Yes Pakistan identifies us but our nationhood is Islam. Even with the fights you see amongst us you should also see the largest gathering on earth in the form of Hajj in Saudi Arabia. There are thousands of Muslims from India there, but not Hindus. We are one nation even today. Hindus and Muslims are not! But this doesen't mean we cannot live in peace.
As I said, many of the fights you see in Muslims are because of ignorance and outside interference. Many of the Muslims are not truly following Islam. What do you think about the united Muslim empire during and after the Caliphate till the Ottoman empire.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by laeeqkhan: *
What Indian roots are you talking about? How can we disown something we never owned!
India itself comprises many types of races. Aryans......... So how can you say "Indian" origin. I never say I am Pakistani origin in the real sense. Yes Pakistan identifies us but our nationhood is Islam. Even with the fights you see amongst us you should also see the largest gathering on earth in the form of Hajj in Saudi Arabia. There are thousands of Muslims from India there, but not Hindus. We are one nation even today. Hindus and Muslims are not! But this doesen't mean we cannot live in peace.
As I said, many of the fights you see in Muslims are because of ignorance and outside interference. Many of the Muslims are not truly following Islam. What do you think about the united Muslim empire during and after the Caliphate till the Ottoman empire.
[/QUOTE]
time to update your knowledge bank boy. the largest gathering in the world is the kumbh mela on the banks of ganga at prayag in india. it takes place every 12 years. whatever. what do u want to prove by pointing towards haj? that all hajis r muslims? that everyone agrees. or r they also given a passport of the islamic nation?
and stop that talk of one islamic nation and all. it is all illogical and many muslims themselves have discarded that idea. what caliphate r u talking about? what is that country now? does it assert its islamic identity? in fact it is falling head over heels to become a member of the EU. who supported the iraqi people in this war? who supported bangladeshis when the pak army was running amok. who supported taliban when they were beaten by the americans? who speaks for the uighurs who r being culturally annihilated by china?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shahzadqu: *
yaar aravamudhan,
YES, WE CONDEMN WUT THESE RULERS (INVADERS) DID, THEY DIDN'T DO A FAVOUR TO ISLAM, BUT GAVE IT A BAD NAME.
Now, why are they upheld in Pakistan. well its unfortunate that they are. i think the reason is simply because they were Muslims and someone in our history (history of Pakistan) didn't want them to be shown as evil invaders.
ok do i need to post again to answer your questions aravamudhan one more time? plz dont' make me. i can't make it simpler then this.
[/QUOTE]
oye shahzadqu, if you say you're ashamed of these destroyers of temples, that's good for you. But as you wrote yourself, there are too many that think Ghazni and Gori and such sinners and crooks are heroes and as long as such adolation exists I will be asking my question. You don't have to read it because you're there already.
As to others, so you endorse the actions of those that smashed up Babri mosque? Because if Gazni and Gori can do it, VHP can do it too!
We are not ashamed of anything. We have a glorious past which we are proud of!!!! The way you treat Muslims and Christians of India today is despicable.
All the great heroes - Ghaznavi, Abdali, Ghouri did not come to kill or loot.
[/QUOTE]
even gioven your level of understanding of history, however mistaken it may be as to motives, are you contesting that these invading morons destroyed Hindu temples? everything else is spin and bs. If you are not ashamed then why do you find it so hard to openly admit these were not heroes but great villains in the eyes of humanity as well as Islam? It is a very straight forward question and don't duck it:
They destroyed Hindu temples.
If that makes them sinners admit it.
If that does not make them sinners, say so and that would mean what happened in Babri mosque was just fine too!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by laeeqkhan: *
What Indian roots are you talking about? How can we disown something we never owned!
India itself comprises many types of races. Aryans......... So how can you say "Indian" origin. I never say I am Pakistani origin in the real sense. Yes Pakistan identifies us but our nationhood is Islam. Even with the fights you see amongst us you should also see the largest gathering on earth in the form of Hajj in Saudi Arabia. There are thousands of Muslims from India there, but not Hindus. We are one nation even today. Hindus and Muslims are not! But this doesen't mean we cannot live in peace.
As I said, many of the fights you see in Muslims are because of ignorance and outside interference. Many of the Muslims are not truly following Islam. What do you think about the united Muslim empire during and after the Caliphate till the Ottoman empire.
[/QUOTE]
how come pakistani and indian open grocery stores near each other
even in remote parts of the world?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
there are too many that think Ghazni and Gori and such sinners and crooks are heroes and as long as such adolation exists I will be asking my question. You don't have to read it because you're there already.
As to others, so you endorse the actions of those that smashed up Babri mosque? Because if Gazni and Gori can do it, VHP can do it too!
[/QUOTE]
by that token reagen national airport should not be around cuz he negatively impacted the life of people as well :) same could be said for other world leaders.
I suppose someone may say that those are names of warriors...and when weapons are made, they are just named after them.
Like teh whole crusader items in US arsenal, or places and ships named after people in Uk who were responsible for thei criminal colonization of India.
or teams like red devils, demon deacons and blue devils around. I am certain none of em are fans of the devil
1)Mediaeval traveller Ibn Battuta wrote in A D 1334, “The mountain is called Hindukush, since slave boys and girls who are brought from India die there in large numbers, as a result of the extreme cold.”
But there is at least one more theory about the origin of the name Hindukush. Soldiers of Alexander the Great termed these mountain ranges Indian Caucasus, and Hindukush is possibly a later corruption of this
The origin of the term Hindukush (which translates as Hindu Killer) is
also a point of contention.
Three possibilities have been put forward: (note: #1 here is the same as #1 from the previous source)
that the mountains memorialize the Indian slaves who perished in the mountains while being transported to Central Asian slave markets;
that the name is merely a corruption of Hindu Koh, the pre-Islamic name of the mountains that divided Hindu southern Afghanistan from non-Hindu northern Afghanistan; or,
that the name is a posited Avestan appellation meaning water mountains
Fraudia, you have partly succeeded in what must be intentional obfiscation of the purpose of this thread which is neither to establish the prigin and ethnicity of your heroes nor to shine the strobe on the comedic talent you have cosen to exhibit.
Getting back to the original question, which is it? Is Ghazni and similar ilk your hero or not? If they are you are obviously in support of the mosque smahers gang. If not, admit it and be done with it.
"Dr.Thapar said that there were five different and mutually contradictory sources for reconstructing history of the temple which was raided by Mahmud Ghaznavi in 1026 A.D. These sources, she pointed out, were Turko-Persian literature, Jain texts, Sanskrit records, British colonial writings and nationalistic readings of the Temple’s history. Each of these sources, Dr.Thapar said, highlighted the versions of interests of the sections it represented, and thus arriving at hard and fast conclusions based on anyone of them alone was faulty. She also challenges the colonial reading of history by the British historians that the raids by Ghaznavi had cause deep rift between the two communities. Had the raids traumatised the Hindu community, she argued, the temple committee, two centuries after the event, would not have donated land to a Muslim trader to build a mosque close to the temple. Not only had the land been given, but all kinds of help in building the mosque was extended too and written records of these donations were also available.
Even Aurangzeb while demolishing some Hindu temples had given jagirs (landed estates), the records show, to many other temples. While he demolished one Shiv Temple (where Gyanvapi mosque was built) in Varanasi, he gave jagir to another Shiv Temple (Jangambadi Shiv Temple) in the same city. He has issued firmans giving such grants to many other temples as far away as Gawahati. Like our modern rulers those medieval rulers also acted under contradictory situations and political compulsions. Such acts should not be ascribed to those rulers’ hatred for Hinduism and idol worship. This black and white reading of history has done enough damage to cordial relations between Hindus and Muslims since colonial period. " http://ecumene.org/IIS/csss46.htm
“As for the Sultan’s destruction of the temple of Somnath, it is presented by various historians from their own different perspectives. However, keeping in mind the fact that the Sultan did not generally destroy any places of worship during his invasions, it seems quite plausible that the Somnath was destroyed not for religious reasons, but as a punishment implemented upon the residents of the place. According to the Islamic Encyclopedia, published by the University of the Punjab, giving one of the variant explanations of the Sultan’s action says that the Sultan was, in fact, going towards Kanth Kot - where the Raja of Gujrat had taken refuge - but the people of Somnath refused to allow passage to the Sultan. It was because of this reason that the Sultan punished them and destroyed their revered temple[1]. Another plausible explanation is that the Sultan ordered the destruction of the Temple only after the people of the area refused to give him the agreed upon war booty and buried their possessions in the Temple. Other historians, however, have given alternative reasons for the Sultan’s destruction of the temple.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
Fraudia, you have partly succeeded in what must be intentional obfiscation of the purpose of this thread which is neither to establish the prigin and ethnicity of your heroes nor to shine the strobe on the comedic talent you have cosen to exhibit.
Getting back to the original question, which is it? Is Ghazni and similar ilk your hero or not? If they are you are obviously in support of the mosque smahers gang. If not, admit it and be done with it.
[/QUOTE]
Yes they are all our heroes! Happy!!!
Like it or not. You are presented distorted history. What would you say about the Rajas who were looting the pilgrims coming to Somnath?