Why ..............

Re: Why ..............

yes i m from india

on the other hand taslima nasreen is guest in india......:D

she is freely roaming around india

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selective secularism is always bad....even worst than fundamentalism...

there you go...you just answered quite eloquently (may i say) why india is struggling with secularism

shame on you india :D

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but some secular folks will condemn the decision to deny visa to rushdie...

now seculars are also divided on this issue..

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taslima nasreen isnt freely roaming india, she lived in india for a couple of years but was attacked physically a few times by assorted idiot groups. she was under house arrest for a while, and then had to leave india for some scandinavian country.

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does not matter...people will have their opinion

i am talking about "state level secularism"...every post, i am saying state level , state level, and state level secularism

coz when state wants to define itself by a religion, that is a serious problem...

on individual level, people can write, say, preach and practice what they want as long as they dont hurt other people....as long as they dont use force...as long as they dont use violence

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But she was in india till last year i think....

even rushdie visited india..when massive protest took place in mumbai

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All of your points which relate to Zia are useless, since Zia was not an elected President and rigged the elections, lied to and fooled the public.

He was a dictator with no vision to go along with what People really needed.

Now, the issues which always being brushed aside are those which I outlined earlier.

Sectarian issues are a recent phenomenon. Whole subcontinent was peaceful in this regard for centuries.

Yes the solution to that is to find and punish the hate mongers and fatwa baaz idiots...openly after trying them.

Target killing and murder of Ulemas is not what should be done.

Jihad concept was brought in 70's and was cherished by everyone until the problem became out of control. Why was it cherished and approved and even inflated to begin with?

Anyhow, there is a need for education in that regard as well.

Regardless of the system, the problems should be tackled. The system should be based on fair and clean elections and will of majority. Just like in true democracy.

.....Dude is patronizing term. Avoid that when discussing with me.

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Relax! Talk sensible.

Islam is not in Burka.

Didn't you or other secular proponent argue for secular system so alcohol, prostitution, gambling and porn be allowed. Isn't that your vision of secular? ;)

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u r saying my zia points are baseless coz zia was a dictator?.....what do you mean....what are you talking abt?

to be utterly honesty, i am just completely perplexed and confused by the objectivity of your rationale...

i am not debating his legitimacy as a head of the country....i have categorically mentioned all the steps that Pakistani state took under zia leadership...does not matter whether he was vision-less or illegitimate....

reality is that zia and pakistani state took these steps which radicalized our masses and our society..and unfortunately rulers who came after zia did not have courage to correct his wrongdoings.....that is what I am talking about...

so someone needs to own these issues as our state head so that he can start rectifying these deeply rooted problems.....ahhh!

how can you just dismiss all of that in one sentence .... how convenient..isn't it!

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Where did I mention you in my post?

Re: Why …

Let me say it more clearly.

He was NOT an elected president and did not bring the will and wishes of Public.

He brought something like Majlis e Shoora of his own choice and implemented laws of his liking.

Public was not the part of his actions.

His actions are irrelevant when one talks about future of Pakistan.

As to what happened afterward, everyone knows repeatedly the NA has been dissolved and more importantly another dictator ruled over the country for years.

Good thing that 18th amendment to constitution was passed to remove earlier misuse of power by the President. Zardari signed that I think.

But the fact is that repeatedly the wishes of public had been ignored.

Now if the majority of NA passed Nizam e Adal, so why criticize?

Isn’t that democracy all about?

President signs Nizam-e-Adl Regulation: Presidency - GEO.tv

Also, see this video.

I do not think the data shown in video altogether statistically valid but** what I am saying majority of Pakistani awam still accepts Islam being a part of Govt. and laws…**

…just like when Zia did the referandum and fooled people by adding the question on the ballot about Islami Nizam and him being accepted as the Ameerul Momineen.

People thought he would be sincere and a lot of people voted yes.

Again you keep dragging me in to system change discussion and I need you to talk about surgical and precise dissection and removal of problems regardless of the system.

So no more discussion on the system change at this time.

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Plz be honest, Islamic system of government promises justice to all, isnt it?

What happened during the rule of three khalifas? Great great injustices were done. What make U feel that ALLAH could be pleased by injustices?

Plz try to be honest.

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please elaborate about which injustices you are talking about..

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Plz learn about Hadrath Abu Dhar Ghiffari. He was a sahabis about whom the holy prophet said these words,

**"The earth does not carry nor the heavens cover a man more true and faithful than Abu Dharr."

**The man, who according to the holy prophet was most truthful and faithful, was sent to exile on naked back of a camel by none other than one of the Khalifa E Rashidun. His crime was the same what the holy prophet told to be his virtue. ie speaking truth and only truth. He died in painful conditions during his exile.

Will U treat this as great injustice? I do.

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source please....

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Sahih Bukhari 2.24.488
Sahih Bukhari 2.24.489

Right now, plz take these two ahadith. If u are not satisfied I can bring U more about injustice done during khilafat. But later on. till than do ur own research honestly. Check out whether Hadrath Fatima was denied her right on Bagh E Fidak? Also let me know whether U consider it an injustice or not.

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i want source for the incident you mentioned here..not for the hadith regarding virtues of Hazrat Abu zar giffari(RA)

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Have U checked the ahadith in question? These relate to those incident only.

BTW U havent answered me completely. Isnt it?

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2.24.489
While I was sitting with some people from Quraish, a man with very rough hair, clothes, and appearance came and stood in front of us, greeted us and said, "Inform those who hoard wealth, that a stone will be heated in the Hell-fire and will be put on the nipples of their breasts till it comes out from the bones of their shoulders and then put on the bones of their shoulders till it comes through the nipples of their breasts the stone will be moving and hitting." After saying that, the person retreated and sat by the side of the pillar, I followed him and sat beside him, and I did not know who he was. I said to him, "I think the people disliked what you had said." He said, "These people do not understand anything, although my friend told me." I asked, "Who is your friend?" He said, "The Prophet said (to me), 'O Abu Dhar! Do you see the mountain of Uhud?' And on that I (Abu Dhar) started looking towards the sun to judge how much remained of the day as I thought that Allah's Apostle wanted to send me to do something for him and I said, 'Yes!' He said, 'I do not love to have gold equal to the mountain of Uhud unless I spend it all (in Allah's cause) except three Dinars (pounds). These people do not understand and collect worldly wealth. No, by Allah, Neither I ask them for worldly benefits nor am I in need of their religious advice till I meet Allah, The Honorable, The Majestic." '

2.24.488
I passed by a place called Ar-Rabadha and by chance I met Abu Dhar and asked him, "What has brought you to this place?" He said, "I was in Sham and differed with Muawiya on the meaning of (the following verses of the Quran): 'They who hoard up gold and silver and spend them not in the way of Allah.' (9.34). Muawiya said, 'This verse is revealed regarding the people of the scriptures." I said, It was revealed regarding us and also the people of the scriptures." So we had a quarrel and Mu'awiya sent a complaint against me to 'Uthman. 'Uthman wrote to me to come to Medina, and I came to Medina. Many people came to me as if they had not seen me before. So I told this to 'Uthman who said to me, "You may depart and live nearby if you wish." That was the reason for my being here for even if an Ethiopian had been nominated as my ruler, I would have obeyed him.

what you mentioned about camels back i did not find it here...

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Yes I admit what I mentioned is not here. Plz give me some more time till I m able to satisfy U. Till than plz try to find it out in ur own way. Now U know that Hadrath Abu Dhar was a sahabi about whom the Holy Prophet himself testified to be most truthful on earth. U just find out why he was at odds with Muawiya and Hadrath Uthman. Find out how he died and whether he died a pitiable death during the caliphate of Khalifa E Rashida.

In fact I m from a hindu background so not that knowledgeable. May I request someone out here to help me out.