Re: Why ..............
ho gaya na ideological diarrhea diwana jee? as soon some people hear word secular, they get mad without realizing that secularism at the state levels not equivalent to abandoning islam so to speak....
Like I said secularism versus religious is not the issue for Pakistanis. You or your kind can keep trying to run away from real issues and living in la la land.
Re: Why ..............
thats true pakistan was never a true islamic country....
so we cant blame islamic system for failure of pakistan
I never said pakistan is a true islamic state because i dont even know what is an ideal or a complete islamic state?
now what i was saying that since zia times, our state has been trying to endorse islam at the state level....lets see what the reality is...
zia management changed the whole syllabus....my dad and uncles told me that they read somewhat different history.... r*ight or wrong?*
they put islamic courts into place....they even had some kind of majlass shura with all jamat islmai people in there which did nothing but passing horrendous rulings..right or wrong?
they brought islamic flavor at military and bureaucratic establishment level...** right or wrong?**
they created and supported sectarian organizations......all these miliatryjihadi organizations were placed in zia times and then nurtured by army thereafter....right or wrong?
they promoted, sponsored and nurtured jihad at every level....thousands of poor kids from religous madrassas were hired to do jihad in afghanistan and then in kashmir under our state's blessing .... right or wrong?
they induced islamic and jihad frenzy among masses..... right or wrong?
they promoted the culture of religious madrassas that spread hatred among masses against other sects...it became a business and as a result we had a mushroom growth of madrasas in Pakistan .....state turned a blind eye as they were using kids for jihad from these madrasss....right or wrong?
**
and they let saudi arabia/UAE and iran play their dirty games and funnel money for sectarian organizations ...worst crime that our state did....right or wrong**?
and all of that resulted in creating a country where the collective mindset of masses is far more religionized than what it was in 50s and 60s....with no respect for minorities so to speak..with hatred for other sects...with passion for so called jihad....with passion for spreading islam beyond our boundaries...with passion for creating a so called muslim state
that is why majority of Pakistani masses supported murder of salman taseer
that is why they have no problem when qadyanis are attacked.....
and over 90% of them support of islamic state or islamic system when they even dont know know what that means
Re: Why ..............
thats true pakistan was never a true islamic country....
so we cant blame islamic system for failure of pakistan
Is there any true Islamic country on the planet at all? Or was there?
Is having Islamic system of governance just a hypothetical situation?
Re: Why ..............
What needs to be worked on are,
(Not necessarily in the order of priority but in the order of importance)
Pakistan has to work on its security and law and order situation. That's the the number one issue. Close eye on foreigners and any border, airport or highway traffic.
Then comes the check and balance through good justice system.
This can resolve problem of few idiots keep coming in to power who keep stealing national wealth.
Then basic necessities and education.
Besides academic education, the country should have a mandatory education on history of Pakistan and its basis of its creation so brainless article writers/anchors can get educated or cannot make public fool.
absolutely right....how can one disagree with these propositions....are you kiddin me?
par bhai meray ... every third world country has these problems....nigeria has them..india has them....banagladesh has them.....
but investors are still going into those countries.....tourists are still going there.....big conglomerates like GE and Simenes still investing in those countries...right or wrong?
but none of them coming in Pakistan....that is the million dollar question... that is the question we need to ask that why are we marginalized by rest of the world? kabiee socha hai?
because the world thinks we are sponsoring terrorism.... we have sectarian organziatins that want to spread islam by jihad and we support them...that we support taliban....that we are crumbling and a failed state....that we have serious law and order problems due to sectarian wars and state sponsored jihadism.....that we dont obey Internationale framework...and that makes us different from rest of the third world!
so it is you who is running away from real problems....who does not want to address the root cause...
Re: Why ..............
Is there any true Islamic country on the planet at all? Or was there?
Is having Islamic system of governance just a hypothetical situation?
there was khair tussi nahi samjoge...
Re: Why ..............
there was khair tussi nahi samjoge...
Plz name it. I will try to understand.
Re: Why ..............
Plz name it. I will try to understand.
four khalifas who ruled after prophet...
Re: Why …
Let’s look above.
You brought India in your first post and then quoted the idiot writer who talked about India.
Then in #5 post your first point was about India where you brought your ideas of solution.
I do not think sleeping on what the neighbor country has done and been doing is in the interest of Pakistan.
You just want to have your favorite country be left alone. yes internal issues needs to be curbed but Pakistan should not ignore Indian involvements in Pakistan.
Even if you come up with any argument to debunk what is there as proof of Indian involvement you cannot ask Pakistan to ‘stop India centric policies’.
And that includes disputed Kashmir issue.
**Only an Indian wannabe or Pro-Indian would wish Pakistan stops India-centric policies…or say two nation theory is irrelevant or change the syllabus (to please Indian version of division?)…bla bla.
**
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
India’s involvement in terrorism in Pakistan
“The sources privy to the meeting said the committee issued these directions after Interior Minister Rehman Malik presented evidence of Indian involvement, especially in the NWFP and Balochistan, while briefing the committee on the prevailing security situation. The committee, chaired by Senator Raza Rabbani, met at Parliament House.”
As to what Islamic system is and your made up ideas that there are so many interpretations based on lack of knowledge that is another issue and not the issue at hand.
The fact remains: Pakistan has never been a true Islamic country.
But again…**forget about Islamic system or secular argument for Pakistan.
**
Talk about the real problems which Pakistan and its people face on daily basis. Will ya?
Somehow I know you will not!
Aren’t you the one who called a movie "most unbiased’, despite it showed negative image of Jinnah and Muslims of India and justification of Muslim killing? 
P.S. Try to not get personal and call me dude (or buddy).
P.S. 2 I just saw you posts above me after I clicked save. So many points you may have discussed above. Will get to them later when time permit.
Re: Why ..............
Well Pakistan has started moving away from its India-centric approach starting from Musharraf's regime. More than India, the country which has the capacity to destroy Pakistan is Afghanistan. Any instability there has a tendency to spill over into Pakistan, as both countries share a long history, culture and even the same people on both sides of Durrand line. We need a peaceful Afghanistan and have good relations with the people, doesn't matter who is ruling there. Getting out of this strategic interest thing is in our best interest.
Agreed, but this would be a gradual process. Most of the leaders we have at the moment are under the control of the military, as they have to depend upon their green signal to come into power hence they will never try to wrest the powers from them. We will need some one like Erdogan to come into power in Pakistan with popular support so that he can get the military under control which is the case in other countries of the world.
I dont see any form of secularism coming in the country for a long time. The only thing that needs to be implemented in true letter and spirit is banning all sectarian political parties as suggested by Saleem Safi in his article. Efforts should be made to bring together the ulema of all schools of thought to bridge the differences among various sects. At some stage the state would get a fatwa from all schools of thought against suicide killings, and the senseless killings of people of other sects and religions within the country. The emphasis of all these intra sect conferences should be that the actions of a few extremists are damaging the religion as a whole, and if they don't stop then at some stage the state will have to go towards secularism to protect its minorities. I think tableegh is perfectly alright, if it remains peaceful.
I think the religious parties should be allowed to operate (for the time being), but all sectarian and terrorist parties should be banned. All political parties (including religious ones) which are found providing any kind of support to the banned organizations need to be banned as well.
Yes, the country has suffered a lot due to this proxy war. The ruling elite needs to tell Saudia/Iran to pack up their bags and leave. The Irony is that after terrorist attacks within Pakistan, we hear words of condemnation from US but never from Saudia (our brothers???).
Agreed, this will help curbing sectarian and terrorist madrassahs.
The leadership of TTP, LEJ and all other sectarian killers (who are responsible for killing thousands) need to be nabbed, prosecuted and hanged. No second thoughts about it.
great suggestions Ali...i agree with your approach on 1 and 2
on 3, i thought we tried many similar measures in the past....intra sect conferences and unanimous announcements...problem is that these organizations will say these things in public but dont change their attitude in private....it is a business for them..they emotiolaize masses too..but agree no easy solution considering our core society cannot even hear the word "state-sponsored secularism"..for them it is kufar!
Re: Why …
i knew you are going to refer to them..muslims have to go all the way back 1500 years…that tell you something..no? anyway, after those 4 we started a “glorious” period of muslim kingdoms across the globe anyway…Umayyad Caliphate](Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia), Abbasid Caliphate](Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia), Islamic period garden in Granada, *Spain, turkish Ottomans, Mughals in india etc… *all of them were nothing but kingdoms with King being everything…
but let me ask you this…how did 3 of these khalifas die?
they were KILLED…so obviously everything was not perfect even in their times… sect war was in full swing even in their times…right or wrong?
and I will just stop here .. not in mood of lecturing or getting lectured on Islamic history!!
Re: Why …
no one is talking about forming an utopia…
we as muslims want to have islamic shariah government just to please Allah…
aap kaise secular hukumat chahtein hain?
lUSa jaisi france jaisi ya india jaisi?
Re: Why ..............
no one is talking about forming an utopia...:D
we as muslims want to have islamic shariah government just to please Allah...
aap kaise secular hukumat chahtein hain?
lUSa jaisi france jaisi ya india jaisi?
dear ninja....i just want that kind of environment where today's muslims love to live....yes you are right...muslims love to live in west coz they get complete freedom for their religious beliefs....
they get complete state protection...
they have their own mosques..
their have their own muslim schools..
they get honest trials for most part....
they get justice....
they get jobs....
they survive even after 911 and london attacks in these countries for most part coz state protects them....
THEY LOVE IT INCLUDING OUR ULEMAS..... but ironically they want a Muslim sharia state on their home countries....to please Allah? why blame allah for this hypocrisy for god sake?
and of course i dont want many other things that these western countries offer..coz they dont go along with our social culture...we dont need night clubs, bars, lezbian/gays hangouts etc
Re: Why ..............
dear ninja....i just want that kind of environment where today's muslims love to live....yes you are right...muslims love to live in west coz they get complete freedom for their religious beliefs....they get complete state protection...they have their own mosques..their own schools..they get free trials....they get justice....they get jobs....THEY LOVE IT INCLUDING OUR ULEMAS..... but ironically they want a Muslim sharia state on their home countries....isnt this a complete hypocrisy
and ofrouse i dont want many other things that these western countries offer..coz they dont go along with our social culture...we dont need night clubs, bars, lezbian/gays hangouts etc
if suppose 5000 gays in pakistan wants to have gay pride parade what will your secular democratic government do?
Re: Why ..............
phoenixdesi,
When body is healthy it wins fight against virus + germs.
When body is weak virus + germs wins the little local fight to make whole body sick.
You should see how we can make body healthy, rather then chasing after every single germ.
Re: Why ..............
P.S. Try to not get personal and call me dude (or buddy).
P.S. 2 I just saw you posts above me after I clicked save. So many points you may have discussed above. Will get to them later when time permit.
so you are not a dude? just curious....
and yes we are definitely not buddies....so i stand corrected
and I am sure you will post when time permit...i adore your resiliency!!!
Re: Why ..............
if suppose 5000 gays in pakistan wants to have gay pride parade what will your secular democratic government do?
answer is very very simple..
if you ask me at personal level..i have no problem with it...all human beings have right to express
but i completely understand that every region has its own social and societal makeup and if my secular goivt says that such parade will hurt feelings of 90% of masses and may create law and order issue so they will not allow it, i am just fine with it...
but i certainly DO NOT want another islamic interpretation or explanation to reach this to this conclusion AT THE STATE LEVEL ... because before we realize we will have 20 interpretations against gays varying from stoning them, burning them, beheading them, treating them with love coz they are also human beings blah blah....it will just divide masses more...
i am glad u asked the question and I hope u get the point....
you are from india....right? so let me give u an example....why didnt indian govt allow salman rashdi come to india for conferences? coz it will agitate Muslims, hurt their feelings and will create law and order issue....
got it?
Re: Why ..............
What hope is there for a country in which people think the solution to the entirety of their problems is to become a "REAL" Islamic state. What in gods name does that even mean?!?! Burkas for all!
Such bafoons have no concept of logic or reason. They are blessed with child like magical thinking. A world in which simply naming things, makes them so. If you simply call things Islamic, they magically become wholesome and shiny.
After the morons have finished turning the poor corpse that is Pakistan into a "real" Islamic state.
Re: Why ..............
phoenixdesi, When body is healthy it wins fight against virus + germs. When body is weak virus + germs wins the little local fight to make whole body sick.
You should see how we can make body healthy, rather then chasing after every single germ.
that is what i am saying..go after making body healthy..get rid of sect-based cancer, support freedom and state-level secularism, promote diversity and freedom of ideas and protect minorities....this will make your body healthy and then u can tackle all other germs better....education, poverty, clean water, etc.
Re: Why ..............
thing is, is pakistan in danger of being run over by gay pride marches? or people who think they are pleasing god by killing and chasing others away?
Re: Why ..............
thing is, is pakistan in danger of being run over by gay pride marches? or people who think they are pleasing god by killing and chasing others away?
Well, Hijras are bit annoying...