Why ..............

I am so proud of Pakistani intelligentsia who is asking these tough questions openly… I have exact same questions and I have been asking them on these forums for a very long time…and now most of the guppies call me an “indian”… but that is fine!!! that wont stop me from saying what i believe is best for Pakistan

anyway here are few excerpts from this great article of Mir:

"If we had to come to this why did we go through the trouble of Partition? I have wanted to ask this question for years but never could bring up the courage to frame it thus. After all, how can one question the basis of one’s existence? "

“So I will frame the question again: will some astrologers kindly shed some light on the meaning of our destiny? What are we about? Where are we headed? What are we doing to ourselves? The purpose of any society is to give a better deal to its people, a semblance of justice and prosperity, and some hope for the future that those who come after us will have something to hold on to. But if after 65 years of independent existence the mess that we have created is the best that we can do, any fool will be tempted to ask whether we have proven ourselves fit for nationhood”

“Let’s stop worrying about India. In its wildest dreams India could not do to us what we have managed to inflict on ourselves. RAW, with input from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, could have tried for a hundred years and not been able to invent the lashkars and jaishes and tehriks that we have produced in such abundance. What’s more, to scare no one so much as ourselves. Our jihadis used to dream of planting the green flag on the Delhi Red Fort or creating fanciful emirates in Central Asia. Those proving arduous undertakings, they have embarked upon a new jihad – conquering Pakistan from within”

A society making less and less sense - Ayaz Amir

     A society making less and less sense 


 [Ayaz Amir](http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintWriterName.aspx?ID=9&URL=Ayaz%20Amir) Friday, February 22, 2013 

From Print Edition

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http://images.thenews.com.pk/22-02-2013/Opinion/2-22-2013_161449_l_akb.jpg

**Islamabad diary
**
If we had to come to this why did we go through the trouble of Partition? I have wanted to ask this question for years but never could bring up the courage to frame it thus. After all, how can one question the basis of one’s existence?

But as we continue to invent ever more elaborate forms of extremism and violence – killing in the name of our higher faith and exulting no end when the wages of barbarism are impressive – this question returns to haunt me.

I can understand our helplessness, or rather the army’s helplessness, in getting hold of someone like Hakeemullah Mehsud. He is in the mountains where our troops cannot go, perhaps for perfectly valid military reasons. It was not easy for the Americans to fight the Viet Cong and the Taliban plus Al-Qaeda are our Viet Cong.

What a simpleton like me fails to understand, however, is our helplessness in the face of other extremist and sectarian elements holed up not in the mountains but to be found across Pakistan. Lahore, Karachi, other cities – zealots of the faith ready to pick up the rod or the gun at the slightest provocation, you find them everywhere.

Oxford and Cambridge, misguided spirits, may boast of their colleges. Thanks to a history of jihadi warfare, and thanks to other countries, fortresses of piety, meddling in our affairs, we can take pride in the largest collection of religious schools or seminaries anywhere in the world. Can the outstanding scientists produced elsewhere match the stream of outstanding bigots pouring out from our founts of learning?

And state and army are helpless spectators, mounting empty words and firing the most fearful verbal broadsides and going on and on about what they will do, always in the future tense. The title the Mughals gave such intrepid warriors was Sher-e-Qalin, Tigers of the Carpet, their most terrible victories won on reclining cushions. (I am indebted to friend Aakar Patel for this information.)

The Lashkar-e-Jhangvi claims proud responsibility for the Hazara massacres and while in Balochistan this may be a shadowy outfit, although there are enough reasons to think this is not the case, aren’t we aware that elements connected to this outfit, or mutations from it, are to be found across the four corners of the holy province of Punjab? Will anyone do anything about them? We’ll look and sound tough, count on this, but perish the thought of anyone actually doing something.

So I will frame the question again: will some astrologers kindly shed some light on the meaning of our destiny? What are we about? Where are we headed? What are we doing to ourselves? The purpose of any society is to give a better deal to its people, a semblance of justice and prosperity, and some hope for the future that those who come after us will have something to hold on to. But if after 65 years of independent existence the mess that we have created is the best that we can do, any fool will be tempted to ask whether we have proven ourselves fit for nationhood.

We sit across a great piece of geography. But this strategic location, if it is strategic – and I am aware that in the hands of no Clausewitzian scholars has the word strategy been put to more absurd uses – what have we done with it except get into needless adventures and become the bag-carriers of outside powers, on wages that any self-respecting coolie, put to such hard usage, would think twice before accepting.

Let’s stop worrying about India. In its wildest dreams India could not do to us what we have managed to inflict on ourselves. RAW, with input from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, could have tried for a hundred years and not been able to invent the lashkars and jaishes and tehriks that we have produced in such abundance. What’s more, to scare no one so much as ourselves. Our jihadis used to dream of planting the green flag on the Delhi Red Fort or creating fanciful emirates in Central Asia. Those proving arduous undertakings, they have embarked upon a new jihad – conquering Pakistan from within.

Sinners of my age are in a strange kind of bind. We remember Pakistan as it used to be, no ideal kingdom to be sure but for all its faults a good place to be in. And now this onslaught of ignorance and illiteracy, the population breeding as if the end of the world is at hand and a laughable class of people claiming the mantle of national leadership, each luminary of this class a bigger hypocrite than the fellow standing next to him.

Look at the next joke: the Election Commission wants to clean the national stables. Does my friend Fakhruddin Ebrahim think he is Hercules that he will go about this labour? He can be Hercules and blessed by the gods into the bargain and yet not come close to touching these sacred stables. If the loan write-off or default clause alone was implemented, more than half the so-called national leadership would be out of the ring. That is why it is not going to happen. So let all doubters be reassured that the only thing to fear is the Election Commission’s bark, not its bite.

Since when were we so lucky that at the stroke of a pen we would be rid of half the incompetents and humbugs vowing to bring about a revolution in these hallowed spaces? The meek shall inherit the earth but, alas, not so soon.

We recently worked ourselves into a passion on the subject of dual nationals, and rightly so. But why didn’t we stop to think a bit about those politicians aspiring to high office, or already in high office, with huge bank accounts abroad, and not just the odd flat or corner shop in London and New York but immense properties at their command? Indeed, some of our leading worthies now have most of their income parked in other countries. Dual nationals and dual capitalists: whose allegiance is the more divided?

Trust my friend Malik Riaz to take the vulgarity stakes to greater heights when he gifts a behemoth of a palace amidst a 25-acre spread in Lahore to the sitting president of the republic. In any other place this would have provoked a storm of outrage. Not in Lahore where this elegant move is greeted with a deafening silence…perhaps because, Allah be praised, many of the potential stone-throwers themselves reside in glass palaces. And from such ping-pong players the more innocent amongst us expect the miracle of change and, you’ve guessed it, revolution.

This is a tale of two countries, both named Pakistan. The Pakistan created in 1947 collapsed amidst the tumult of the 1971 war, the two-nation theory plunging into the waters of the Bay of Bengal. In the aftermath of that self-propelled disaster Zulfikar Ali Bhutto proclaimed the birth of a new Pakistan. But learning nothing from history we have allowed that thing of fantasy to come to its present pass, a cockpit of some of the most confused ideologies to be found anywhere on the planet.

With our national energies thus crippled how on earth do we get our priorities right? How on earth do we fix our economy and break our begging bowl, and bring out the potentiality of a people still able to achieve so much if only there was someone to light their path and show them the way?

Email: [email protected]

Re: Why ..............

One does not need sight to see.....one needs vision - Faithless.

Re: Why ..............

its a misunderstanding of the religion by seculars which is causing pakistan's current problems. also the ruling class have used Islam as a free military and reservist force. whether they, previous leaders, were hypocrites or not, or whether they felt the country was to remain muslim is not so clear but but then theres been changes to our leadership and international changes have effected us. the result is infront of us

Re: Why …

and if you want to know about the solutions how to fix pakistan…please read this column…salim safi is an established right wing journalist ..so i hope right wingers on this froum will read his columns seriously..and yes it is in urdu…and i know many so called “patriotic Pakistani” guppies cannot read urdu…lol…and i do find it ironic!!!

Salim Safi-jirga- firqawariyat ka afriyat hal kya hay - Jang Columns

Re: Why ..............

and here is summary of my proposed solutions

1) stop India-centric strategic and military policies .... no more use of "mujaheddin and other strategic assets" in Kashmir, or "Afghanistan our strategic depth" type stupid ideas

2) military and ISI should be under civilian rule

3) adopt State level secular composition...**we should not be Islamic republic of Pakistan, we need to be Democratic republic of Pakistan

too many sects in islam, so we cannot implement Islamic sharia anyway.....but when we insist on "islaimc" republic of Pakistan, we give ammunition to religious parties to confuse masses with their version of political islam...recipe of disaster....so why not become secular in composition like every democracy has..that is the only way....at personal level, you can be as religious a you want but no "tableegh" bul**

4)ban all religious organizations who have political ambitions....hang their leaders if they dont stop....constitutionalize and institutionalize this policy

5) complete overhaul of your syllabus to save next generation....rewrite history with correct perspective....openness, secularism, patience, diversity shd be cornerstone

5)get out of Saudi influence for god sake....saudis and UAE have been the biggest cancer in Pakistani society.....iran-saudi proxy war has destroyed us

6) No more political mosques....all madrassas shd be registered...

7) and last not but least hang hang and hang religious and sectarian bigots and make an example out of them

and NO I am not hopeful abt our future..not till 2030 at least....coz that wud be the time when Pak will start getting rid of my generation who has been raised under Zia regime on that polluted syllabubs..that generation is now in full control of Pakistan in military, bureaucracy and educational institutions

Re: Why ..............

But what do all your solutions have to do with the Two nation theory?

Re: Why ..............

who cares abt 2-nation theory anymore.....it was used as a political ideology to create Pakistan ... yes we can always have a political debate abt its validity but from practical perspective, Pak is there now and we need to make it a liveable country..that is what really counts...and if that demands Pakistan to be a secular country at the state level so be it...

Re: Why …

I agree, the first “strategic depth” eligible is the country itself i.e. Pakistan. We need strategic depth to keep it as a country, as next step we should provide basic necessities. If we fail to do that then the country will be in tons of pieces sooner than we think, it will become gang-war-zone and turn into Afghanistan of 90s.

Not with current set of bikaao maal politicians, you must have seen NS talking to US audience (ambassador) criticizing govt for “handing over port” to China (that is a separate topic, lets not digress), NS hand-in-hand with LeJ/ASWJ etc, this is just one example of a front-line political party. Read many other stories of past of PPP similar heroics how we sold out our army, plans, secrets etc. There should be a joint forum of army, civilian, judiciary, technorats to oversee anyone stepping out of line.

Unfortunately this is what Pakistan has come to, religious leadership wants to reign the country without any credibility, without any hints of reconciliation with other parties/stakeholders, they want to thrust their ideas. May be for the short term we need to do this as the flames of 1980s have converted to tall fire now.

Now you are turning into ‘non-religious’ extremist :hehe:

Agree.

Anyone spreading hatred should be punished be they religious or non-religious, simple!

Re: Why …

thx for a sane response Captain…

I agree with you on #2…at least for short term…there should be a joint forum of army, civilian, judiciary, technorats to oversee anyone stepping out of line.

on #4, not sure why am i an extremist… fine, dont hang them…i admit i went overboard but I am saying that ban all those religious organizations** who have political ambitions.**…now in a mature democratic country, we cannot ban them but in Pakstan these so-called political religious parties have done nothing but spreading hatred and sectarianism on name of political islam..you mind if fazl ul rehman stop taking part in politics?

we are agreeing on rest of the points…so no issue

Re: Why …

here is another phenomenal article from urdu press…khurshid nadeem is an established right wing journalist for a very long time…and look what he is saying…in so many words he is also supporting a secular state of mind at state level, which I have been saying for years… he is urging masses to understand that whether you like it or not but secularism is the need of time and that is how all mature states operate these days…we need to protect minorities at any cost and ban every sectarian organization…and if we dont do it, rest of the world will fix us!!

i urge to ready his column carefully… a lot of thoughtful ideas..

i know there is a general bias and inferiority complex among Pakistani educated circles against urdu columnists..yes I read almost every famous English newspaper in pakistan but unless we read urdu press, we will never understand what our masses are thinking…urdu press has far more approach among masses…

Roznama Dunya

Re: Why ..............

you are talking about secularizing pakistan. is this even viable? pakistanis have built their identity by putting all their eggs into the "being muslims" basket. from my limited interaction in real life with people my age, i find way more secular-minded people among iranians and even afghans, with an understanding of their native culture that doesn't necessarily obligate them to carry a muslim tag, and still be identified as part of the same nation.

Re: Why ..............

i completely agree and i said it upfront:

"and NO I am not hopeful abt our future..not till 2030 at least....coz that wud be the time when Pak will start getting rid of my generation who has been raised under Zia regime on that polluted syllabubs..that generation is now in full control of Pakistan in military, bureaucracy and educational institutions"

Pakistanis were far more secular in their outlook in 50s and 60s but starting zia regime, our generations have become far more "religionized" and no i dont see any hope..whoever will talk abt secularization will be immediately dismissed and maybe killed by masses......

but i am still proposing what i think is best for us...and to be honest, if we are bound to take religious path coz of sad ground realities, people like qadri are much better religious alternatives as they have far more secular outlook

Re: Why …

For more
Jirga on Geo news – Aitzaz Ehsun and Ayaz Amir – 23rd February 2013

Re: Why ..............

There appears to be some hallucinogenic material in desi food at Phoenix.

Re: Why …

I agree that Urdu press is the opinion maker as it is read by most of the population. The english newspaper reading elite would not be more than 5 %.

Re: Why ..............

Well Pakistan has started moving away from its India-centric approach starting from Musharraf's regime. More than India, the country which has the capacity to destroy Pakistan is Afghanistan. Any instability there has a tendency to spill over into Pakistan, as both countries share a long history, culture and even the same people on both sides of Durrand line. We need a peaceful Afghanistan and have good relations with the people, doesn't matter who is ruling there. Getting out of this strategic interest thing is in our best interest.

[QUOTE]
2) military and ISI should be under civilian rule
[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but this would be a gradual process. Most of the leaders we have at the moment are under the control of the military, as they have to depend upon their green signal to come into power hence they will never try to wrest the powers from them. We will need some one like Erdogan to come into power in Pakistan with popular support so that he can get the military under control which is the case in other countries of the world.

[QUOTE]
3) adopt State level secular composition...**we should not be Islamic republic of Pakistan, we need to be Democratic republic of Pakistan

too many sects in islam, so we cannot implement Islamic sharia anyway.....but when we insist on "islaimc" republic of Pakistan, we give ammunition to religious parties to confuse masses with their version of political islam...recipe of disaster....so why not become secular in composition like every democracy has..that is the only way....at personal level, you can be as religious a you want but no "tableegh" bul**
[/QUOTE]

I dont see any form of secularism coming in the country for a long time. The only thing that needs to be implemented in true letter and spirit is banning all sectarian political parties as suggested by Saleem Safi in his article. Efforts should be made to bring together the ulema of all schools of thought to bridge the differences among various sects. At some stage the state would get a fatwa from all schools of thought against suicide killings, and the senseless killings of people of other sects and religions within the country. The emphasis of all these intra sect conferences should be that the actions of a few extremists are damaging the religion as a whole, and if they don't stop then at some stage the state will have to go towards secularism to protect its minorities. I think tableegh is perfectly alright, if it remains peaceful.

[QUOTE]
4)ban all religious organizations who have political ambitions....hang their leaders if they dont stop....constitutionalize and institutionalize this policy

[/QUOTE]

I think the religious parties should be allowed to operate (for the time being), but all sectarian and terrorist parties should be banned. All political parties (including religious ones) which are found providing any kind of support to the banned organizations need to be banned as well.

[QUOTE]
5)get out of Saudi influence for god sake....saudis and UAE have been the biggest cancer in Pakistani society.....iran-saudi proxy war has destroyed us

[/QUOTE]

Yes, the country has suffered a lot due to this proxy war. The ruling elite needs to tell Saudia/Iran to pack up their bags and leave. The Irony is that after terrorist attacks within Pakistan, we hear words of condemnation from US but never from Saudia (our brothers???).

[QUOTE]
6) No more political mosques....all madrassas shd be registered...

[/QUOTE]

Agreed, this will help curbing sectarian and terrorist madrassahs.

[QUOTE]
7) and last not but least hang hang and hang religious and sectarian bigots and make an example out of them

[/QUOTE]

The leadership of TTP, LEJ and all other sectarian killers (who are responsible for killing thousands) need to be nabbed, prosecuted and hanged. No second thoughts about it.

Re: Why ..............

The problem which Pakistan faces is not religious versus secular. I have said this before.

Anyone who wants to avoid the real issues wants Pakistani people to get in to another type of conflicts and issues related to it.

I see wannabe-Indians or pro-Indian keep talking about making Pakistan secular when they know that is not the issue. Never was.

The dilemma Pakistan had all along that it never had become a true Islamic country and add to that, it cannot ever become a true secular either.

Even India has not shown to be a true secular and cannot be. Many evidences can be cited.

What needs to be worked on are,

(Not necessarily in the order of priority but in the order of importance)

Pakistan has to work on its security and law and order situation. That's the the number one issue. Close eye on foreigners and any border, airport or highway traffic.

Then comes the check and balance through good justice system.

This can resolve problem of few idiots keep coming in to power who keep stealing national wealth.

Then basic necessities and education.

Besides academic education, the country should have a mandatory education on history of Pakistan and its basis of its creation so brainless article writers/anchors can get educated or cannot make public fool.

Re: Why ..............

thats true pakistan was never a true islamic country....

so we cant blame islamic system for failure of pakistan

Re: Why ..............

ho gaya na ideological diarrhea diwana jee? as soon some people hear word secular, they get mad without realizing that secularism at the state levels not equivalent to abandoning islam so to speak....

Re: Why ..............

as always you are accusing people for wanna-be indians...good for you...india is on your nerves dude! why do you need to bring india in every discussion....it does not add any value dude...i dont care what problems india has...i am concerned about pakistan....yes it is absolutely fine quoting india when we are making an argument but bringing india into every discussion does not add any value

so per you pakistan was never a true islamic country ...... so it can never become secular either?.....not sure what is the connection...lol

oh bhai meray, I never said pakistan is an islamic state.....because i dont even know what is an "islamic" state....that is why we never had one in 1400 years....what we had were mere muslim kingdoms ...

we have so many sects with so many interpretations of political islam based on each sect that it is impossible to have an islamic state..........so what makes you think Pakistan will have one?

dude, if something did not exist for1400 years, try to think that maybe it is not doable..open up your close mind? thora sa? pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee...lol....anyway we have this discussion many times before...so i will stop here...