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*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
Prophets made mistakes but our Imams are infallible :)
Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will pray behind our Imam Mahdi (a.s.) ..what does that tell you
no doubt Prophets were great but Imams are greater :)
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With all due respect again Sheraz, that still doesnt make Hazarat Ali a.s a prophet, does it ?
salman
I dont think that is what Sheraz was trying to say
i love them both and i swear i wont have a problem if anyone calls Ya Ali or ya Mohummad..all the hadiths i have posted from sunni books are just to show u what Imam Ali (a.s) was to Allah and Prophet Mohummad (pbuh&up)
I personally still prefer "Ya Allah" :) not that I have a problem with ppl saying Ya Muhammad or Ya Ali.
Fraudz I know what he meant but I was kinda indirectly addressing his this post.
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*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
let me just clear one thing for you guys
Imam (a.s.) Ali's rutba is higher then any Prophet except for Prophet Mohummad (pbuh&up) because no one can better then the last Prophet.
now if someone wants to say Ya Mohummad madad..no problem with that :)
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-Salman
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
I personally still prefer "Ya Allah" :) not that I have a problem with ppl saying Ya Muhammad or Ya Ali.
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thats fine..just dont know why its so hard for ppl to understand 'waseela'..why do they forget its only Allah that can help..so much has already written about it yetttttttttttttt
anyways i m goin home :)
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*Originally posted by SalmanNY: *
Fraudz I know what he meant but I was kinda indirectly addressing his this post.
-Salman
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salman i have alot on info so maybe once someone can open a thread ..i can share that with y'all :)
Hey I have no issue with ppl using waseela. I just prefer to go directly to the source. Allah has told us that he listens to our prayers.
P.S. working late today eh, past 6 p.m. your time. thought ppl bailed early on friday
today is my monday..i work from friday to monday :( but its all good i get to work from home on weekends :D now i am really leaving
no u are still online
so what is this work fri-monday and then ayaashi rest of the week? must be nice
oh and just so this post does not get split, my last point
someone saying Ya Hussein or Ya Ali Ya Muahmmad or Ya Allah is their personal approach, one may agree, disagree with the approach, but it shoul;d not be enough of a basis for us to have the type of sectarian hatred and stress we see everywhere.
I am glad that we can debate discuss and learn from one another
Sheraz same here brother, I love both figures to death and I do. I seriously do. But (I am not saying you are like this) but I make sure that my priorities are set. Whom to call out for help whom I should call out in the time of need.
Don’t take me wrong, I have shia’s all around me and they are all my good friends and I know where you guys are coming from; BUT one question that no body ever answers me is
** There is a WHOLE month of Mattam for Hazarat Ali A.S. May Allah reward you guys for this. BUT, just like you guys have dedicated one month of Year for the mourning of Hazarat Ali a.s, Why not 2 months to show the love of Prophet Mohammad :saw: ? **
Honestly, you know where it gets wrong, when all the mourning all the mataam is just dedicated to Hazarat Ali a.s and nothing for Prophet Mohammad :saw:
Can you prove me wrong if I say this
** A TYPICAL SHIA IN HIS LIFE CALLS OUT OR READS OUT THE NAME ALI A.S MORE, AS COMPARE TO MOHAMMAD SAW ?**
On one side you said ** THERE IS NO COMPARISON OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD SAW AND HE INDEED IS THE MOST RESPECTED FIGURE** but when it comes to respect and calling, Its Hazarat Ali a.s who comes first in Shias.
Thats I call contradicting to your own self. Please enlighten to all I have asked/commented above. Thanx in advance
-Salman
:k: Fruadz… how is Chicago … and need any parts for your car 
-Salman
Regarding the walidity of tawassul.. I believe in the ahl-e-sunnah there are certain schools of jurisprudence which are believed correct and ijma beyond their directives is closed (correct?).
Four references I can find demonstrating that Sunnis knocking on tawassul are going against their Tariqa's stated principles.
Imam Malik:
The Abbasid caliph, Mansur al-Dawaniqi, once asked Imam Malik ibn Anas whether he should turn towards the grave of the Prophet (s) or face the Qiblah for supplication? Malik answered him:
Why do you want to turn away from the Prophet (s) when he (Prophet Muhammad (s)) is the wasilah (means) for you and for your father Adam, towards Allah on the Day of Resurrection. Turn to him (the Prophet) and seek his intercession (shafa'at). [Taken from Al-Mughni ma' al-Sharh, vol. 3, p. 588; al-Sharh al-Kabir ma' al-Mughni, vol. 3, p. 494; al-Qadi `Iyad in al-Shifa
(2:92-93)
Imam Hambal:
Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Ala' al-Din al-Mardawi said in his book al-Insaf fi marifat al-rajih min al-khilaf ala madhhab al-Imam al-mubajjal Ahmad ibn Hanbal (3:456):a) to use as means a pious person, and it is said that it is desirable (mustahabb).
“The correct position of the [Hanbali] madhhab is that it is permissible in one's supplication (du
Imam Shafii:
The Family of the Prophet are my means and my intermediary to him. Through them I hope to be given my record with the right hand tomorrow”.
Ibn Hajr Haytami, in Al-Sawaiq al-muhriqa li ahl al-dalal wa al-zandaqa (eg page 180) AND in al-Khayrat al-hisan (p. 69) This has also been found in Diwan al-Shafii as edited by `Umar Faruq al-Dabbagh (Beirut: Dar al-arqam, n.d ) p. 50.
Imam Ghazali
Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Abdul Hamid Ghazzali allotted a special section in his book Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din concerning the manners
of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s) in order to repent and seek forgiveness from Allah. He stated:
The Prophet should be made the means (wasilah) and the intercessor (shafi'), and with face turned towards the tomb, the pilgrim should implore Allah for the sake and position of the Prophet with the words: "O Allah, indeed You have said, Had they, who had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would have certainly found Allah
Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful (Holy Qur'an 4:64);
O Allah, surely we have heard Your words and we obey Your command, by coming to Your Prophet to seek his intercession with You for our sins; how burdensome and heavy (are sins) on our backs! We repent of slipperiness, we confess our wrongs and our faults, accept our repentance for his sake, make Your Prophet intercessor for us, and exalt us for the sake of his position and his rights with You."
I've taken these references from an excellent article I found on this, but its too lengthy to post in toto. Anyone interested plz contact me for it.
Regarding Hazrat Ali over the Prophet
Firstly, you're confusing things if you're counting "ya hussain" as an instance of Shias preferring the (certain people in the) aal for wasila. Ya Hussain is principally associated with mourning and muharram, a seperate issue.
Between Hazrat Ali and the Prophet, there is no question about the relative stature between them. But higher stature and respect does not automatically imply that the Prophet should the automatic source of nusrat.
The distinction is not merely political, there is also the fact that, both implicitly and explicitly, during the prophets lifetime, the Prophet relied on Hazrat Ali for nusrat in times when he needed assistance. Some element of that history both sects agree upon, some they dont.We trace, for instance, Nad-e-ali to the Prophet during a certain war (which i forget.. someone please help out here..) which explicitly includes "ya ali" in it. Depending on who you are, you might view that as justification for our actions, or you might view calling Hazrat Ali in times of need, or you might view that as sunnah. Bottom line: we trace our calls to Ali to Prophetic tradition.
Hazrat Ali is therefore, characterised as someone who comes to your aid in times of distress, from events in the life of the Prophet. based on that characterisation, is the phenomenon that you all find puzzling.
^^Why call Ya ---- fill the blank with what ever, when you can directly ask from Allah. It has been stated many many time in the Quran that Allah listens to you when you call for him. Paraphrase of an ayat" I am closer than your "shahrag". So just call on him, trust me he listens. :). There is no need for "Waseela", when you do waseela you are actually being a "munkar" of Allah's ability to listen to you. Do you really believe that if you used waseela your prayer has a greater chance of acceptance? I guess no one can prove it otherwise, hence it must be true:).
or you might view that as sunnah
So let me get this straight you only folow the sunnah that matches your beliefs and convictions. When its time to follow sunnah regarding the other sahabas (specially Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Usman) sunnah does not apply? It must be nice to have such a luxury to pick and chose sunnah in this fashion.
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So let me get this straight you only folow the sunnah that matches your beliefs and convictions. When its time to follow sunnah regarding the other sahabas (specially Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Usman) sunnah does not apply? It must be nice to have such a luxury to pick and chose sunnah in this fashion.
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i'd drop the smugness right there. if its trivial enough to occur to you, it sure as hell has occurred to a million different people over time.
as far as sunnah regarding the people mentioned, there are differing sunnahs in different sects, which was why i was so careful in phrasing my post.
if it was in our view of the sunnah of the prophet that these people you mention deserve the kind of treatment meted out to them later on, then we would follow it too.
the reason i posted sect-specific ahadith was because this is a sect-specific issue, and thus it makes sense for me to do so. regarding the three people you mention, you probably wont find too many of the ahadith for which yo venerate them in our literature.
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*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
^^Why call Ya ---- fill the blank with what ever, when you can directly ask from Allah. It has been stated many many time in the Quran that Allah listens to you when you call for him. Paraphrase of an ayat" I am closer than your "shahrag". So just call on him, trust me he listens. :). There is no need for "Waseela", when you do waseela you are actually being a "munkar" of Allah's ability to listen to you. Do you really believe that if you used waseela your prayer has a greater chance of acceptance? I guess no one can prove it otherwise, hence it must be true:).
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you didnt even address the issue of all four schools of sunni thought permitting and even promoting the concept of waseela.
What different Sunnah? Did Prophet:saw: marry Hazrat Aisha..daughter of Abu bakr or not? Did he not fight side by side with him or not? Did Usman helped Islam and Prophet:saw: on many occasions with his welath from his trading business or not? Did prophet:saw: consider him his friend or not? So, please drop your blindness and focus on the logic. If you believe that Prophet :saw: made a mitake in choosing his friends and you guys after almost 1500 years are a better judge of character than by all means drag those shabas name in mud. I hope you feel proud and good that you have actually solved a big problem.
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*Originally posted by ravage: *
you didnt even address the issue of all four schools of sunni thought permitting and even promoting the concept of waseela.
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ravage, what makes you think that I am sunni? Just curious.