The first question was answered by Sheraz, as for the second one, i presume its directed to the ahl sunnah's follwers, because the shia view on waseela in the light of Quran, has already been stated.
for those who believe we dont take Prophet Muhammed (saw) as wasila are mistaken. Infact all the 14 masoomins are used as wasael regularly in majalises. It is used in the sense 'be haqqe muhammed, be haqqe ahle muhammed', nothing more and nothing less. It just shows our belief in the high status these individuals have with God (which none of us can deny).
The historical context in which Imam Ali (As) blessed name is used, is that it came as backlash to the ritual cursing of Imam Ali(as) by the kharijites, during and after the omayyad rule. People were forced to curse Imam Ali, and so his followers/supporters used every opportunity to praise him, and to explain his virtues. Hence, Ya Ali became a shorthand form/symbol of rebellion.
Traditionally, in indo-pak, Ya Ali Madad is used as a greeting by Ismailies, but i think unfortunately the trend has spread to shias, mainly 'malangs'.
I dont see Ya-Muhammad as frequently as Ya-Ali or Ya-Hussein. Sorry but he was more important than the other two.
the crux of the argument is this, there was no differnce between muslims over hazrat muhammed saw. the difference (political) was over Ali and Hussain. Ya Ali and Ya Hussain in context, is a political backlash/slogan.
think of the bigger picture, and always in historical context, not as it is now.
so its politics and has nothing to do with religion?
yes to a greater extent. now its more traditional than either.
making waseelah has already been proven from Quran and Ahadith
a separate thread can be opened about the importance and the rutba of Imam Ali (a.s.)
My question remains, and no disrespect to either Hazrat Ali or Hussein or Hassan (RA), but The prophet is at a higher level, I would think that one would look towards the prophet more.
this is interesting..lets have another thread on Imam Ali (a.s)..here is something from some of the sunni books:
The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "He who wants to see
Noah (AS) in his determination, Adam (AS) in his knowledge,
Abraham (AS) in his clemency, Moses (AS) in his intelligence
and Jesus (AS) in his religious devotion should look at Ali
Ibn Abi Talib (AS)."
Sunni references:
- Sahih al-Bayhaqi
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in
- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v2, p449
- Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the
Verse of Impreciation (Mubilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition
has been accpeted as all genuine.
- Ibn Batah has recorded it as a tradition related by Ibn Abbas as is
stated in the book "Fat'h al-Mulk al-Ali bi Sihah Hadith-e-Bab-e-
Madinat al-Ilm", p34, by Ahmed Ibn Muhammad Ibn Siddiq al-Hasani al-
Maghribi.
- Among those who have admitted that Imam Ali (AS) is the store house
of the secrets of all the Prophets is the Chief of Gnostics, Muhi al-
Din al-Arabi, from whom al-Arif al-Sha'arni has copied it in his al-
Yuwaqit wa al-Jawahir (p172, topic 32).
SubhanAllah..kiya baat hai mere maula Ali (a.s.) ki :)
^ The prophet is still much much more important :)
does not change the fact that Hazrat Ali, or Hasan or Hussein (RA) were great people, among the most important people in the history as far as I am concerned, but not "the" most important person. That is only reserved for the prophet.
^ indeed!
ps> did that revelation hit you before or after my post? because thats not the issue. The greater status of the prophet is crystal clear and not debatable.
pps> it seems you are just debating for the sake of it.
Prophets made mistakes but our Imams are infallible :)
Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will pray behind our Imam Mahdi (a.s.) ..what does that tell you
no doubt Prophets were great but Imams are greater :)
No, I am not debating it just for the sake of it, I am clarifying..just for the sake of it. wishy washy answers do not interest me, exact answers do, and until I get them, I will keep asking.
So now my question has been answered, The prophet is thus considered significantly more important than any other person or people.
So
if someone believes in waseela, the prophet should be called upon more as he is more important.
Thanks
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
Prophets made mistakes but our Imams are infallible :)
Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will pray behind our Imam Mahdi (a.s.) ..what does that tell you
no doubt Prophets were great but Imams are greater :)
[/QUOTE]
Imams are NOT greater than Hazrat Muhammad (SAW), and thatis what I am concerned with. All Imams combined are not even close to teh greatness of the beloved prophet (SAW)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Imams are NOT greater than Hazrat Muhammad (SAW), and thatis what I am concerned with. All Imams combined are not even close to teh greatness of the beloved prophet (SAW)
[/QUOTE]
are you feeling ok? where did we day Imams are greater then Prophet Mohummad (pbuh&up) ..infact i said he is the greatest human created by Allah
take a chill pill
well your statement that Imams are greater than prophets came out of no-where. I was niether discussing the status of Imams nor them compared to other prophets, just that no matter how important they are, they are no where close to being as important as the holy prophet.
chill pill taken, the rest of the bottle is for you :)
^ i can only give you answers according to my understanding. the prophet is the best of creations and the best wasila.
however our belief is that the 12 imams were divinely appointed (as told by the prophet- another discussion) and are also wasilas.
Prophet muhammed is the Imam of Imams.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
all Imams combined are not even close to teh greatness of the beloved prophet (SAW)
[/QUOTE]
The Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp) said:
"Verily, Ali and I are inseparable, and he is the master (wali) of every believer after me."
Sunni Refernces:
Al Tirmidhi, in his Sahih, ii, 297,
The Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp) is reported to have said to Imam Ali (AS):
"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses?"
Sunni Refernces:
Al Bukhari in his Sahih (al Matba'at al Khayriyyah, Egypt, 1320) in "Kitab bad' al Khalq", "Bab manaqib `Ali ibn Abi Talib" and "Bab ghazwat Tabuk," in two places, records this tradition
Muslim in his Sahih (Matba`at Bulaq, 1290), "Kitab fada'il al Sahabah," through three chains;
The Prophet (pbuh&hp) while returning from his last pilgrimage stopped the entire caravan at Ghadeer Khumm and made the announcement:
"Of whomever I am his master (mawla), Ali also is his master (mawla)."
Sunni References:
al Hakim in Mustadrak ala al Sahihayn vol. iii, pp. 109110;
Al Tirmidhi in his Sahih (Bulaq, 1292), ii, 298;
^ sheraz in this long cut n paste job are you disagreeing that the prophet is greater in stature than all other imams or prophets?
if not, what is your point. Thank you
you do not need to convince me of the greatness of Hazrat Ali. To me he is the most important person after the prophet, but he is not the prophet.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
To me he is the most important person after the prophet, but he is not the prophet.
[/QUOTE]
good..that is Prophet Mohummad's (pbuh&up) hadith in sahih muslim..i have also posted it many times before..glad you agreed..also read humhaipakistani's posts..that will also tell you why ppl started to say Ya Ali
I did not just agree, I have always believed it
I did read the political aspect of this
but to me politics is less important than faith
why not go to the person with teh higher stature... just to make a political point