Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
Rebel, I can give you some answers on that.
First, the West talks, talks and talks. Criticizes Mushy's emergency very lightly and Media's Interest falls all of a sudden. Where there is no Media, there are no masses.
Secondly, (believe it or not, but I do believe in that) Pakistani consider Protests, Demos as something bad. So as soon as you start protesting (and that is in any case and anywhere) people will look as you have committed a bloody crime. So that the "talking" you been mentioning will change into a new dimension: "Oh! Look, there thats the one seen on TV protesting. " and so Mushy becomes side business in these talks. Basically a cultural and traditional problem in our Pakistani societies.
So either way, what would YOU do in such circumstances?!
well right now when the media interest is there and opposition parties are using this as a scoring opportunit against ruling parties e.e. dems in US scoring poinst againt W, why dont ppl get up and give media fodder then.
and if indeed it is right that people simply dont have it in the culture to go out and protest, then they should sit home and be content with whatever the powers that be at honme and abroad decide.
my experience has been otherwise, thre have been huge demonstration in pakistan, i have seen a number of those. there have been huge demonstrations where many pakistanis took part in Us and UK, whether they were against war or for peace.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
u know and that is what is getting to me, what is prompting ppl to just send letters opposing emergency..why did we nto see a strom of letters opposing western support of benazir as a party ot the agreement.
where are the letters that go simply beyond bashing musharraf and talk about
yesterday my boss was askign em about my family and how they were and inquired that he was a little confused because he read somewhere that there were corruption allegations against benazir in Pakistan and whether they were true or just poltically motivated, as I talked about non pakistan cases including rockwood estate (surrey palace), SGS kick backs and the oil for food scandal, and the human rights assessment of her adeventures in karachi, he wondered out loud why on earth would we i.e. US support such a character
we have to fight for a justice, and have to do it honestly. we can not continue to be stuck in the vicious cycle of inept crooked civilian leaders, bloated corrupt bureaucracy, military rule etc.
I mean right now write a letter to whoever your rep is whereever and oppose all these guys. ask your govts to support Imran.. why not?
Has he/or she never thought of. Why would WE vote for G.W. Bush again and again.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
sorry nawaz did the same, ZAB did the same ..or we would have had mujeeb as a PM.
memories are short but should not be that short.
so it appears we have a few 'worse' leaders.
It's wrong to justify one wrong with a past wrong...If we did not stand up then it was wrong....If we do not stand up now it will be wrong....It's high time we should say wrong is wrong and not try to justify it with past wrongs>>>
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
well right now when the media interest is there and opposition parties are using this as a scoring opportunit against ruling parties e.e. dems in US scoring poinst againt W, why dont ppl get up and give media fodder then.
and if indeed it is right that people simply dont have it in the culture to go out and protest, then they should sit home and be content with whatever the powers that be at honme and abroad decide.
my experience has been otherwise, thre have been huge demonstration in pakistan, i have seen a number of those. there have been huge demonstrations where many pakistanis took part in Us and UK, whether they were against war or for peace.
See, protests rallies are normally backed by Governments or Foreign Ministries. NORMALLY.
Now take this discussion to another level.
Why oh why was there no protests held by Human Rights Activists? When we had Human Rights Activists and other Peace rallies regardig Myanmar?
Latest news is that Emergency has been declared in Georgia, you will see the same happening here. The West will keep their mouths shut and will do nothing but just oppose the emergency declared (maybe, that is!).
Where there is no will, there is no WAY!
And this maybe the case here too. It's all about who opposes what and If there is support.
Finally, regarding inner Pakistan situation. In Martial Law protesting, while half of Pak (the main figures) have been held captive, going on protest rallies is sheer courage.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
Has he/or she never thought of. Why would WE vote for G.W. Bush again and again.
different topic, he was concerned about US govt policy, and him being a staucnh anti W, we have had those discussion before as well and he does wonder that... but lets not get side tracked..
his points are well worth it, from his perspective, he has heard talk shows with ppl calling in, but not getting into the big issues with the new US fav benazir, and he was surprised to find out things like the deal with her name popping up in US congress papers as an example of major corruption.
knowing him, he has probably dispatched letters to his senator and rep already, but the question is why is the pakistani and pak expats need to be doing the same.
simply opposing the current set up does jack, opposign the current set up and some of the old timers is what is needed, and it requires more intelelctual honesty with oneself that I am sorry to say I dont see much of.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
It's wrong to justify one wrong with a past wrong...If we did not stand up then it was wrong....If we do not stand up now it will be wrong....It's high time we should say wrong is wrong and not try to justify it with past wrongs>>>
we are saying the same thing, i am just correcting certain exxagerations and giving some examples to not get carried away. I am a rational person and logic works better on me that exaggerated emotionally charged rhetoric steeped in personal biases.
The only reason it is even relevant is because some of the players are not just in past they are very much around right now. and we can not lose sight of that.
we need new faces, period. in all branches of govt.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
different topic, he was concerned about US govt policy, and him being a staucnh anti W, we have had those discussion before as well and he does wonder that... but lets not get side tracked..
his points are well worth it, from his perspective, he has heard talk shows with ppl calling in, but not getting into the big issues with the new US fav benazir, and he was surprised to find out things like the deal with her name popping up in US congress papers as an example of major corruption.
knowing him, he has probably dispatched letters to his senator and rep already, but the question is why is the pakistani and pak expats need to be doing the same.
simply opposing the current set up does jack, opposign the current set up and some of the old timers is what is needed, and it requires more intelelctual honesty with oneself that I am sorry to say I dont see much of.
But there is no alternative and this is the core issue and the problems root.
In 1999 no one was aware of Mushy and his policies. BUt what was most appreciated, he wanted to fight corruption and nail and jail Sharif Sahib. Successfully he did so at the beginning but failed on the longer run coz of the Saudi relations to the Army and Nawaz.
And believe me at this time even I, was happy to see a NEW MAN on the rise and at top of all. But the happiness didn't last for long. Mushy did exactly what others did, put the old boys back in business. Exactly those who are corrupt and corrupted him and his system more and more over the 8 years of his rule.
We can pray for Imran to take seats, but why on earth Nawaz Sharif as an ally who himself is on corruption charges?!
That's where he made me thing a 1000 times before I could be finally voting for him. What is the difference between BB, him, Nawaz, Mullahs and Mushy? I see non!
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
But there is no alternative and this is the core issue and the problems root.
In 1999 no one was aware of Mushy and his policies. BUt what was most appreciated, he wanted to fight corruption and nail and jail Sharif Sahib. Successfully he did so at the beginning but failed on the longer run coz of the Saudi relations to the Army and Nawaz.
And believe me at this time even I, was happy to see a NEW MAN on the rise and at top of all. But the happiness didn't last for long. Mushy did exactly what others did, put the old boys back in business. Exactly those who are corrupt and corrupted him and his system more and more over the 8 years of his rule.
We can pray for Imran to take seats, but why on earth Nawaz Sharif as an ally who himself is on corruption charges?!
That's where he made me thing a 1000 times before I could be finally voting for him. What is the difference between BB, him, Nawaz, Mullahs and Mushy? I see non!
We are saying the same thing.
And as I have said, i really hope we see Imran of 2000 rather than Imran of today who is aligning himself along religious, ethnic lines.
The only diff is that he has not been tried, othes have been. and aside from his follies in becoming a anti govt mouth piece and aligning hismelf with everyone anti regime, he has disappointed some of his supporters. but he can still come out strong and say exactly what u or I are saying.
question then is, do you feel there is enough ppl in pakistan who would be galvanized by such a call, or do u think we will stick to voting for our family fav murghay murghiaan based a large part on ethnic and religious mindsets.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
sorry nawaz did the same, ZAB did the same ..or we would have had mujeeb as a PM.
memories are short but should not be that short.
so it appears we have a few 'worse' leaders.
What ZAB and Nawaz did was wrong but that does not justify what is happening now. We have to learn and move forward not keep on harping about the past in order to justify our own exaggerated emotionally charged rhetoric steeped in personal biases.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
We are saying the same thing.
And as I have said, i really hope we see Imran of 2000 rather than Imran of today who is aligning himself along religious, ethnic lines.
The only diff is that he has not been tried, othes have been. and aside from his follies in becoming a anti govt mouth piece and aligning hismelf with everyone anti regime, he has disappointed some of his supporters. but he can still come out strong and say exactly what u or I are saying.
question then is, do you feel there is enough ppl in pakistan who would be galvanized by such a call, or do u think we will stick to voting for our family fav murghay murghiaan based a large part on ethnic and religious mindsets.
His major handicap is his political stance towards the West. Which I personally think is not a very intelligent one. I would have liked him in this dream team (As far as I am concered, I'd not prefer a a Dream Team at all, but the West let's us no other option).
After all he has lived and studies years and years in Europe.
I agree that the Imran of 2000 was politically more correct than the Imran Khan in 2007.
Another set back is his hand shake with Nawaz, the same person who was backed by MQM when Nawaz was in power.
We will vote as we have voted in past. There will be no difference.
Maybe some Nawaz voters will either switch to MMA or PPP.
The most worrying thing about the present situation in Pak is:
Pak has never been so divided in past as Pak is now at present.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
What ZAB and Nawaz did was wrong but that does not justify what is happening now. We have to learn and move forward not keep on harping about the past in order to justify our own exaggerated emotionally charged rhetoric steeped in personal biases.
The logic is simple, maybe i am not explaininh myself well enough.
ZAB and Zia were part of an example that included other crooks from the past like Nawaz and BB, which are sadly also our future options, and keping an eye on what they did in past is critical, because they must be held accountable for those by all and opposed due to that.
Unless we believe that they have had a personality trasnplant.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
His major handicap is his political stance towards the West. Which I personally think is not a very intelligent one. I would have liked him in this dream team (As far as I am concered, I'd not prefer a a Dream Team at all, but the West let's us no other option).
After all he has lived and studies years and years in Europe.
I agree that the Imran of 2000 was politically more correct than the Imran Khan in 2007.
Another set back is his hand shake with Nawaz, the same person who was backed by MQM when Nawaz was in power.
We will vote as we have voted in past. There will be no difference.
Maybe some Nawaz voters will either switch to MMA or PPP.
The most worrying thing about the present situation in Pak is:
Pak has never been so divided in past as Pak is now at present.
I dont know if he started feeling politically irrelevent and decided to gain relevancy somehow. Is not just Nawaz's alignment with MQM in past, Nawaz and Imran have traded several charges against each other, same goes with the religious parties who were up in arms about his past and his marriage to Jemima back in the day.
To me sign of a good leader is to try and bring together a diverse group of people or diverse groups for common purpose, I believe that is what he tried to do, but i felt he wen too far in appeasing these people, and was sidelined again as MMA and PML(N) took center stage and pushed him to the side again.
I am not sure about Pak not being so divided as it is now..it was pretty bad in the 80's and 90's. the Baluchistan issue was there and with clowns like Gm syed and wali khan and their idiotic rhetoric of sindhu desh and pkahtoonistan and the emergency of MQM and the rhetoric of jinnahpur, and of course Baluch sardars who were dealt with a few times by diff leaders.
the different factor this time is the issue with FATA and taleban supporters, and I dont think there is any way to appease them, period, because in the end what they really want is safe haven in pakistan to plan and launch attacks worldwide, and that is simply not in Pakistan's interest. I am not talking about all people in FATA but the militants who have control and who have support from some tribal strongmen.
so while people talk about peace and peaceful resolutions. I simply dont think its possible with them. but thats a diff topic.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
I can't get Geo signal at the moment. What's the latest news on people coming out on the streets of Pakistan?
you know what the main problem with dictators is ... they always assume that people aren't coming on streets because they're happy with the policies. on the other hand, no matter how bad a politician is, he/she atleast understands the actual situation.
Its not difficult to understand why people aren't coming to streets:
you may forgot but in reality poeple are still trying to find their missing relatives. So many people are missing - and it scares the hell out of others. who can really take the risk of leaving young children behind and then getting arrested & sent to some unknown place.
These last 8-9 years are the worst years when it comes to inflation. Basic food was never out of reach. Even poor were able to eat atleast a piece of roti. Now they've been forced to spend all their time to just earn one meal a day. They have to work day & night just to pay a utility bill. Do they really have enough time & energy to come on roads.
We have seen the lawyers & journalists on road - educated community. They aren't terrorists/criminals. Their social standing is way better than the majority of Pakistanis. They don't have guns. so what happens to them when they come on roads?. can a poor person take this risk who can't afford medicines, & who will be sent to jail without any legal charges.
and with all this so-called terrorism & suicidal attacks, its not that easy to take the risk. Are you willing to?
by the way, a lot of PA guppies live abroad. How many of them are posting under new nicks now-a-days. what does that tell you.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
These last 8-9 years are the worst years when it comes to inflation. Basic food was never out of reach. Even poor were able to eat atleast a piece of roti. Now they've been forced to spend all their time to just earn one meal a day. They have to work day & night just to pay a utility bill. Do they really have enough time & energy to come on roads.
stats please..
poverty levels, avg income, purchasing power parity etc etc.
I mean feel free to criticize but lets not try to make up stuff.
by the way, a lot of PA guppies live abroad. How many of them are posting under new nicks now-a-days. what does that tell you.
that tells you nothing, ask your beau as he has actually seen it happen before and it has zilch to do with Pakistan, so please dont pass your theories and assumptions as a fact.
Re: Why Pakistani people have not taken to the streets?
you know what the main problem with dictators is ... they always assume that people aren't coming on streets because they're happy with the policies. on the other hand, no matter how bad a politician is, he/she atleast understands the actual situation.
Its not difficult to understand why people aren't coming to streets:
you may forgot but in reality poeple are still trying to find their missing relatives. So many people are missing - and it scares the hell out of others. who can really take the risk of leaving young children behind and then getting arrested & sent to some unknown place.
These last 8-9 years are the worst years when it comes to inflation. Basic food was never out of reach. Even poor were able to eat atleast a piece of roti. Now they've been forced to spend all their time to just earn one meal a day. They have to work day & night just to pay a utility bill. Do they really have enough time & energy to come on roads.
We have seen the lawyers & journalists on road - educated community. They aren't terrorists/criminals. Their social standing is way better than the majority of Pakistanis. They don't have guns. so what happens to them when they come on roads?. can a poor person take this risk who can't afford medicines, & who will be sent to jail without any legal charges.
and with all this so-called terrorism & suicidal attacks, its not that easy to take the risk. Are you willing to?
by the way, a lot of PA guppies live abroad. How many of them are posting under new nicks now-a-days. what does that tell you.
I just can't understand it. This emergency is supposed to be the worst thing that has ever happened to Pakistan, yet Pakistanis are still not willing to come on the streets. Maybe they are indeed extremely happy with what is happening in Pakistan and the unprecedented development they have seen in the past 8 years. :)
Aalsi,you and your sarcasm!