Why oh why!

Lifestyle Wedding, Fashion & Beauty
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Re: Why oh why!

while reading this all..one occation came in my mind...when my jeet was getting married than my in laws said that they dont want any furniture because in karachi their house is really small and the bride will be moving to usa and it will be waste of money..if the parents really want to do it than they can spend that moeny on her jewellery or simply open an accout on her name and deposit it...they also said they dont want any electronics as they wont use those in us and it will be waste of money so my jeetani's parents did that.spend that money on buying her extra jewellery

and yea my saas told them that they dont even want a bed because they will be giving that portion on rent after going back to usa...so my saas told my jeetani mom said that she can buy a bed and when they are moving to us than she will bring back the bed home...everything was agreed and the pressure was from in laws on not buying any furniture..

so this year when my saas came to karachi for my nikkah than one day she was saying to my mom that her elder bahu mother didnt even give a bed to her...she give her a bed and bring it back to her home after we left..she was saying like if the bed was here so if anyone of us would come here than we could sleep there....i was so angry when i heard that...she was the one who force them not to get anything..

and than my mom said that she will get everything at my wedding and its up to my in laws what they want to do with it...

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why is it up to them what to do with it. :S
its yours!

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yea it would be mine...but i will be moving to usa after marrige so i wont need them and in karachi their house is really small and they usually give on rent when they return to usa

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**I totally agree with you chanda!

going back to the 'WHY?'...once again i dont want to sound like a preacher but all the problems that we see during the wedding preps, the wedding and during marital life are due to us NOT PRACTICING WHAT ISLAM SAYS and upholding cultural values and traditions! (im assuming most of you are muslim)

for example Islam teaches us SIMPLICITY...an islamic wedding is only the nikkah and walimah reception. if Allah has blessed someone with wealth then spend it but not in extravagance…and islam totally forbids accumulating debt (especially when there is interest charged). Brides should not be envious of other brides as envy is haram in islam…do what is possible for you to do and don’t break the bank in the process!**

Where jehez is concerned, many people say that the Prophet (saw) gave his daughter Fatimah (ra) two sheets, four mattresses, one blanket, one pillow, one cup, one hand-grinding mill, one bedstead, a small water skin and an earthen pitcher etc. therefore they also have to give their daughter things they need….HOWEVER what they do not know is that this stuff was bought with the money received after the sale of Ali (ra) armour therefore technically the stuff was from Ali (ra).

I have many Arab friends and they don’t give jehez…the groom buys everything sometimes even the brides wedding dress and jewelry!

Where the in-laws are concerned…they have NO RIGHT to interfere in their childrens marital life unless absolutely crucial! this is for the husbands out there…IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE A SEPARATE HOUSE FOR YOUR WIFE TO CALL HER OWN HOME NOT THE IN-LAWS HOME…SHE SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE HER OWN FREEDOM IN HER IN-LAWS HOUSE…she has married you and has no obligations to SERVE your family and if she does out of good will this is her EHSAAN upon them and you!

What really makes me laugh is that the in-laws demand for the all this jehez and when it comes to the FARDH bit they chicken out…im referring to the MAHR…this should be according to the grooms circumstances NOT what the Prophet (saw) gave to his daughter...so if he is a millionare 5 rupees do not suffice as mahr.

Sorry for rambling on but this is something close to my heart!

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^I’m not entirely sure that the mahr should be determined according to what the husband is making. Sunni Path has answers by Hanafi and Sha’fi scholars

Mahr: How Much Should It Be?

The mahr should be negotiated between the bride and groom, not their parents. There is a minimum, but not a maximum and from what I’ve heard and read, it should be a reasonable amount.

I think all of this goes back to what people view mahr as…to me, its sad if people go into marriage thinking of divorce, i.e. viewing mahr as a payment given in the case of divorce.

This is also interesting…
Marriage: How to perform the nikah according to the sunna in the Hanafi school

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This is a really big thread and come to think of it, it can be broken down into smaller threads that can be discussed separately. well i wont go into a lenghty discussion regarding jahez/bari but i do have a few things to say regarding us girls ourselves. After the fact, its a lot easier for many girls to say we didnt like our parents spending so much on our wedding. However, at the time of the wedding we girls do want to have a little bit of everything and there is so much competition going on in our culture. So when we get all those clothes made, which is like 50 or even 100 in some cases, we decide to wear them once or twice or thrice and then they get locked up in a suitcase and stored away somewhere never to be seen again! I got married 4 years back and a lot of the things I got made are no longer in fashion, for example, the long kameez is now in! I dont believe in throwing away my old stuff and replacing it with all the new stuff that is in . For my sisters recent engagement, i chose to wear a knee length kameez with shalwar which was 4 years old. I do not have any regrets in doing this and REPEATING something old! I have also given alot of my clothes for alteration since I lost some weight after my wedding. I am saying all this to make some of us realise that its not a wise thing to spend hard earned money, be it our parents or husbands, on clothes for the rest of our lives! Spending wisely is a good habit and adopting to it sooner is better!

Its a good thing to treat yourself to a nice new pair of shoes or suit occassionally but we ourselves have to change first in order to stop all the evil in society!

The Jail game
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sorry, i didnt make clear what i meant…i wanted to say that people who can afford an ample amount for the mahr dont always agree to it…

at you second point about mahr being a payment given incase of divorce…thats not completely true…mahr is a gift from the groom to the bride and it has to be payed at sometime in the marital life whether the couple get divorced or not (unless it is specified that it will be payed in case of divorce). there are 6 ways in which the mahr can be payed according to what has been specified in the nikkah or circumstances (tafseer surah nisa)

KAHAN MER GAI SAAREEEEEEEEEEY
KAHAN MER GAI SAAREEEEEEEEEEY
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Wow!! I am so happy to see this discussion going the way it is!!
Ok just some rough pointers here..

a) GUYS--dont get sucked into your parents' outrageous demands and traditions,
You KNOW they will cause difficulty to your future inlaws. If you show a bit of care and respect, things will work out well, IA, because you are trying, and your noble effort will not be wasted. It is not right to abandon your values, in order to satisfy your "well wishers" haw hais.
Also, sit with your inlaws and parents, to talk about abolishing these backward traditions. Stand up, and own your right! YOU should be providing for your future wife. I know I am repeating myself, but please dont let the aging parents of your bride buy YOUR and YOUR wife's necessities.

b) Bride
Yes it is your day, but its not to be exploited. Stay within your means, be expressive and let yourself be heard WHEN your inlaws ask you what you want. If you prefer parading your wish list around, your wishes will not be valued as much.
Buying everything at once just seems ridiculous. Instead focus on building a good relationship with your inlaws. Bari/Jahez is completely outdated, and please forget about keeping this awful tradition alive!!! If your mom gives you 2 sets, say thank you. If your MIL gives you rubies not emeralds, say thank you. If she gives you one, be grateful, because it is NOT her job to give you gold, your parents are not supposed to buy you 100 tolas or even 1 tola of gold!! When they give you something please accept it with love....
Anything and everything you want, (legitimate stuff)...is to be fulfilled by your husband and if you work, buy for yourself!! No harm in that. But expecting and demanding things on top of things from your INLAWs and your PARENTS is what ruins relationships and sours them even before you can imagine!
If you are lucky enough to find good inlaws, dont take advantage of them! If your husband to be can afford a wedding outfit of 4 lakh, go for a 2 lakh one...you will be happier, and will get that glow you have been searching for! ( I dont think the groom's parents should be buying the jora..the groom should..since they are already throwing the walima party)

In the end girls...be humble, and thoughtful, its your day, its your party, its in your hands to make it work..

Inlaws
Your DIL has a LOT to say to you, hear her out. She will respect you, when you show her love and care. She is a brand new member of your family, and it will take some time for both of you to adjust to each other. A positive effort is all that takes to bring you both closer together. MILs please show some empathy, respect her likes and dislikes, she a bride to be, and her emotions are running wild. Use this time to get to know your DIL.
Your demands and rasams have no place, it is utterly wrong to ask her parents for anything. Your son has a responsibility and if you think he cant fulfill it, then he is NOT ready to get married. Although, the new bride should live the way you are living. No need for an imported car, bed set, or china. If you were surviving without, I am sure she can too.

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you shouldnt be buying anything. The point here is to speak up for what is right! and let go of the lame demands.

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^ Very well said. it's a great lesson for all of us. Hopefully people will walk away with something and apply it to their lives. As some of you know, I'm getting married next year I'A. I have already had discussions with my parents. I asked them to follow what is absolute minimum in terms of the amount of gold they should give. Since I work, I took the responsibility of paying for the outfits and don't plan on making many of them. I'm narrowing down about 10 designs that I love and sticking to those. I'll probabaly get a few more semi-formal outfits and I'm done! As trends change, I can order more as need be.

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Great thread, I agree with most of the points here but some stuff being discussed is more dependent on each person's circumstances. Like for instance, Im quite sick of reading over and over again- don't make more than this number of clothes in your jahez, they will sit in your closet, yadi yadi yada. Sorry but I think that is a personal choice. Just because some people didn't get to wear theirs doesn't mean that happens to every single bride. I have had cousins who took like 13 joras and after 2 months were out of clothes because they had so many dawats to attend. If you KNOW you're not gonna be able to wear them all then that's one thing, it will be a waste of money for you to go on and on making clothes knowing you are not gonna use them but like I said, if you belong to a widely social family or inlaws then go ahead and make them. For myself, Im gonna need to make atleast 30, which Im not that happy about because I can use that money for something else but knowing how many dawats, etc Im gonna attend just in the few months, I find it a bit silly to start bugging my husband just a month later that oh go make me new clothes. After you get married, you have so many financial responsibilities that clothes don't even come anywhere close.

Similar to that, there are a few things that are more of personal choices that I don't think anyone should be criticizing. Bottom line is, if you can afford it, spend whatever you want, it's your wedding after all. But don't go in debt or bring your bank balance down to 0 just because you want to show off or so and so did that much at their weddings. My mom always tells me, chaadar dekh kar paoon pehlate hain. Im getting a designer dress for my wedding but even then my mom gave me a set budget, she told me that okay, you want one, Im more than happy to get you one but here's how much I can spend on it, if the cost goes above that, we can't pay for it.. so I know what my spending limits are. Same thing with jewelry and everything else.

As for baree/jahez issue, it is suppose to be an exchange of presents done out of love like you would gift your friend or family presents on some other happy occasion. If we can give birthday gifts, why not give presents on the wedding? If my family gives presents to the guy's side, it's out of love and because they too are a part of the family now. However, it's all dependent on your intentions. If my mom, knowing the taste of my inlaws, goes ahead and gives them something stupid and cheap knowing they will not like it then that's wrong. Same thing with the guy's side too. It's not like either of the families NEED gifts or they'll die, it should be done thoughtfully and with love. Sadly, it's been turned into oh get me a car, get me a house, get me a present for every single khaandan wala. I think this tradition of gift giving at wedding should be done from heart and not based on greed.

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^^^well said:)

but I dont mind eliminating the huge bari and jahez from our culture....rather give a few nice gifts and be happy

Yes the same way our parents have a budget, the future spouse and family have theirs. Its not worth it to get into a million arguments. and if you wants something grand, you can always get it urself instead of insisting from the other side and creating havoc.

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Pareezay, the problems have been fueled by demands and expectations from both sides. I am not worrying about the girls who are independent and can make/follow a budget to their own liking, when it comes to their personal needs.
the bottom line is...
*A home, and its belongings are to be provided by the husband.
*Your parents are to help you with your clothes and jewelery, for the nikah/rukhsati
*Each set of parents are to arrange for the 2 major days (Nikah/rukhsati and the walima)
*your husband is responsible for buying your post wedding/walima jora/jewels. (or if your MIL wants to pass on her jewels to you, even better!)
*the relatives are not subjected to gifts, gold, etc...if you do give, it becomes a tradition, regardless of YOUR intentions! this is exactly what we are discussing, years old traditions that are unnecessary, even if carried out with good intentions. Yes they are unnecessary, yet thousands and thousands of people follow them making them necessary, yet it does not guarantee happiness..

*The crisis that has occurred in families during and after weddings is mainly due to the over spending on the bride and the groom AND the extra gifts that must be distributed to the groom's distant family!
secondly, you can wear a dress again to a dawat! people do it all time..even the rich and the famous repeat outfits...its no biggie...

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^ chanda u r mentioning the issues/problems...but what is the solution?...how to approach the inlaws and tell them here is what i can do ... take it or leave it... without this causing friction and issues in the future.

I m having a love marriage...and am just very glad that my inlaws are good ppl and they like me. so now if there is a tradition in their family to gift everybody (all 50 members of their family) what m i do or my mom to do?

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rabia, your in-laws are nice people so you should tell them that your family does not participate in such rasams because it will be against your family's traditions. Why do you want to carry on traditions that go against your principles? Do you have any older member of your family who shares these views?

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^nope...my mom thinks v should give the gifts.

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I would hate for these efforts to die out in vain rabia, (and other readers), but why is it so hard to break away from this?
why cant you convince your mother not to?

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u knw chanda...just few month ago a wedding was called off here in houston over a very simple wedding tradition ... in punjabi's (frm what i have heard and seen) the guys side pays only for the Valima outfit and the girl side gets the baraat outfit for the bride. Now the argument started frm the girls side...in their family both bridal outfits are by the groom side and well neither party wanted to compromise and they called off the whole wedding.

to answer ur questions...^ cuz of reasons like the above.

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"secondly, you can wear a dress again to a dawat! people do it all time..even the rich and the famous repeat outfits...its no biggie..."

^ Agree! I do think that one can get away with repeating outfits to a dawat...especially because most dawats will be attended by you and your immediate family. The hosts don't know what you wore last weekend :-) But again, if someone has a large extended family and will be attending many dawats, it makes sense to make more outfits compared to a person who doesn't have a large social circle. So I can see the argument both ways but moderation should still be mphasized. Just becasuse you CAN, doens't mean it's OK to do so.
It's funny that we are talking about this today becasue I was discussing this with my husband last night. He doesn't have a large desi social circle (lives in California) so I won't need loads of desi outfits. I know that if he was to be living in Toronto, I'd need more than 10 formals because I have a large extended family and we would be attending more dawats. What really works to my advanatge is that the clothes I wear to post-weding dawats in Toronto (as we will be here for a few days after the shaadi) I can easily repeat them in California :-)

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a point that came to mind after reading all of this:

perhaps the fact that we expect our parents to arrange the nikah/rukhsati and the in-laws to arrange the valima leads to problems after marriage. meaning, that if MIL and SIL were soo involved in picking out the perfect rishta/girl for the son, then paying for girl's outfit and jewels at valima and giving bari, they also expect to be reallly involved in all decisions made by the couple AFTER marriage. and the new bride, since she doesn't really get to see all the stress/planning/excitement that went into bringing her to the in-laws home in a "grand way' just sees them as intruders in her and her husband's life.

maybe this whole jahez/bari thing could end if bride and groom THEMSELVES decided to pay for entire wedding etc. that would just take off the burden from girl's parents and in-laws and actually set the tone for the rest of the marriage: that its a union between TWO people (not entire khandan) and they are the only ones who should have to deal with the stress, problems, planning, budgeting and therefore the only two who should have any expectations from each other. that way, inlaws won't interfere after the marriage either (unless they are complete idiots) and probably won't expect the bride to serve them like a maid :)

of course the parents and in-laws are allowed to give gifts...but thats up to them and what they can afford. it shouldn't be expected.

obv this suggestion is highly impractical if the girl or guy don't have a stable career yet and also if the parents have a typical desi mentality of HAVING to pay for the wedding and showing off to the world how much they love the daughter, but its worth a shot in my opinion.