why joint,why seprate???

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

^belive it or not...still many ppl marry or atleast engaged in arranged system where they dont have much chances to talk! also as pakistani culture mostly push women to accept joint system so many desi girl even dont express this basic as they feel it will be tag on them as a misrespecting bahoo...

living in ur own space isnt a big demand ...demand means when u will expect something out of hand that usauly most boys can afford a small apartment..

but more than all i opened thread & called it WHY joint,WHY seprate?that ppl come & post their ideas with their mind behind it ,then if someone who stuck in this problem now he/she can see his/her problem from other views... still there r many couples who have this problem...blaming their husband that forced them for joint or blaming wife who misrespct family...so instead blame & also saying she/he would demand from first now if we r married or engaged we should come on same point according situation now breaking wont solve issues!

For God sake can you stop painting Pakistani women as some oppressed creatures? Do you have anything better to stay other than painting them as silent victims? You are seriously coming across as a very disrespectful and cunning person with your gross generalisation and half baked criticism of Pakistani cultural.

Dude by your posts, seems like you know jack about Pakistan so before spewing the same crap about women being 'puhsed' or forced to live with her husband's evil ass parents, I think you need to know a thing or two about our social and economical set up.

In Pakistan its ridiculously expensive to afford a house that too in a respectable area, you cannot expect an average 25+ year old guy to be financially stable enough to provide you a comfortable life from the scratch. I'm a girl, I'd rather live in my husband's family house in a typical middle class areas of Lahore than live a small ****hole of some ghetto for sake of having the opportunity to have open making out sessions with my husband. I rather save the money for long term advantage. Yes I am Pakistani and I know that even affording a rental property in respectable areas of Pakistan is not everyone's cup of tea. Things maybe differnet in Iran...I'm not gonna dispute that.

You need to look from woman's point of view, if her husband has a big family house in a respectable area, why on earth would she wanna move to a ghetto area for sake of privacy'? In Pakistan we also have something called status qou, settling for less than what the joint system is offering you is not an option for many. Most people in Pakistan 'accept' joint family system in Pakistan (quit over using using the word 'force', seems like this the new word you've learnt) for their own safety and as a base for future financial mobility.

If you want to earn respect from the community you are about to adopt, I suggest attempting to at least understand why things are the way they are would really help.

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

^There doesn't seem to be any dispute amongst (non-desi) scholars regarding it so no it's not just my opinion..

Coming on here and saying 'there is no preference in Islam, joint or separate are equally fine' IS wrong, whether u choose to follow it or not (if it was really considered acceptable either way other Muslim societies would also have the DIL moving right into inlaws home, the desi way, which they DON'T)..

But coming out and pretending Islam somehow clearly *forbids *living with inlaws is pathetically amusing.

I've heard scholars saying if by separating from your parents you are causing them emotional pain and mental distress, then the spirit of Islam would suggest you to compromise on something for your parents' betterment. Keeping your parents happy is also serious deal in Islam thats why most scholars tell you to use your own common sense to come up with a middle ground. As much as we like to pretend, there are indeed no crystal clear ruling on joint or separate living but there are signifcant rulings on rights and treatment of your parents and your partner. To upset one party to make another happy would really go against the spirit and teachings of Islam.

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

^I only said it was forbidden if there are non-mehrams around which is TRUE, perhaps u should learn to read properly.

And where are these (non-desi) scholars who encourage the desi joint family system (or even staying with MIL and FIL unless there is an actual need ie. not 'my parents are v.sensitive and my mummy will cry if I leave')?? OH YEAH, THERE AREN'T ANY.

'Keeping parents happy' applies up to a point, not when it encroaches on other ppls rights and it doesn't mean following them blindly, a concept a lot of desis seem to have trouble grasping.

There are clear rulings on this that the rest of the Muslim world seems to understand, just a lot of ppl from Hindu-inspired cultures are pretending otherwise. Pretty obvious when u realise that the desi culture is the ONLY one which thinks this way.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, like I said go and ask a major imam or scholar for the truth instead of coming out with ur opinions with NO references to back them up.. I have posted references before which can be found on here if u do a search..

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

^I only said it was forbidden if there are non-mehrams around which is TRUE, perhaps u should learn to read properly.

And where are these (non-desi) scholars who encourage the desi joint family system (or even staying with MIL and FIL unless there is an actual need ie. not 'my parents are v.sensitive and my mummy will cry if I leave')?? OH YEAH, THERE AREN'T ANY.

So would your scholar also say women working is also 'forbidden' as they are so many non mehrams around their workplace? Its not about me not knowing how to read, its about your point lacking credibility to view. You can't pick and choose when existance of non-mehram becomes an issue or when it doesn't, if women remaining in a close of proximity of na-mheram is forbidden alltogether then its forbidden be it in the house, Uni or the work place. If you follow *that extreme *brand of Islam then I don't even see a point in having any discussion with you.

How about you find me evidence that says women are absolutely forbidden to be in a close proximity of na-mehrams, I know they are required to remain modest in front of na-mehrams but thats not what we're talking here.

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

Oh, somehow non desi scholars are more Islamic and important than the desi ones?
Wow thats some bigotry. Pathetic.

How about listening all those non desi 'scholars' who denounce 95% of South Asian cultural practices (besides joint family system) as kufr or biddat?

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

Regarding work it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to be in a 'mixed' environment if she is covered and it is forbidden to be ALONE with a non-mehram, not around them full-stop which is the reason we aren't allowed to be LIVING with them as it's obvious at some point u will be left alone with them.. (And btw the rules about freemixing apply also to men, as usual ur picking women up on something that applies to both sexes by saying they 'shouldn't' be in the workplace or uni..

The quote the 'BIL is DEATH', is that good enough for u (or more excuses).. As far as I know such strong wording is never applied in regards to non-mehrams in general..

Jolie, I am done now.. ASK AN IMAM..

STILL nothing to back up ur claim along the lines of 'joint or separate, both are equally ok in Islam..'

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

No I don't worship scholars based on their ethnic backgrounds, nor I am ashamed of my cultural heritage. Find me strong Quranic or Hadith evidence that clearly goes against the idea of joint family system otherwise Hindu slurs don't cut it for me. I'm a Muslim not an Arab!

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

Oh, somehow non desi scholars are more Islamic and important than the desi ones? Wow thats some bigotry. Pathetic.

How about listening all those non desi 'scholars' who denounce 95% of South Asian cultural practices (except joint family system) as kufr or biddat?

I meant in terms of what they say about the joint family. Like it or not it's the truth but ppl who are blindly following culture will never see it.. Better to admit faults and mistakes then keep on pretending it must be right because we're the ones who are doing it or because that's what our parents, grandparents, great grandparents did. If u really believe us desis who practise our joint family system are right and practically all of the rest of the Muslim world is wrong I feel sorry for u.

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

Regarding work it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to be in a 'mixed' environment if she is covered and it is forbidden to be ALONE with a non-mehram, not around them full-stop which is the reason we aren't allowed to be LIVING with them as it's obvious at some point u will be left alone with them.. (And btw the rules about freemixing apply also to men, as usual ur picking women up on something that applies to both sexes by saying they 'shouldn't' be in the workplace or uni..

The quote the 'BIL is DEATH', is that good enough for u (or more excuses).. As far as I know such strong wording is never applied in regards to non-mehrams in general..

Jolie, I am done now.. ASK AN IMAM..

STILL nothing to back up ur claim along the lines of 'joint or separate, both are equally ok in Islam..'

And you think you are successfully backing your claims that being in the same house with na-mehram is forbidden? You are just playing with the word 'living' which isn't doing a good job at hiding your double standard. So at work its a simple 'mixing' which all good and dandy but at its not a mere 'mixing'. With the word 'living' trying convey an impression as if there's some intimate closeness that's shared by women and na-mehrams, when in reality all distances and formilities could be maintained even under one roof. No matter what word you use to manipulative twist.

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

@Jolie

No I don't worship scholars based on their ethnic backgrounds, nor I am ashamed of my cultural heritage. Find me strong Quranic or Hadith evidence that clearly goes against the idea of joint family system otherwise Hindu slurs don't cut it for me. I'm a Muslim not an Arab!

Love the lame attempts to divert the question by bleating on about 'worshipping scholars based on their ethnic backgrounds' lol. ASK A REPUTABLE IMAM OR LOOK IT UP. I HAVE PROVIDED REFERENCES IN THE PAST ON THIS FORUM. LOOK IT UP

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

And you think you are successfully backing your claims that being in the same house with na-mehram is forbidden? You are just playing with the word 'living' which isn't doing a good job at hiding your double standard. So at work its a simple 'mixing' which all good and dandy but at its not a mere 'mixing'. With the word 'living' trying convey an impression as if there's some intimate closeness that's shared by women and na-mehrams, when in reality all distances and formilities could be maintained even under one roof. No matter what word you use to manipulative twist.

So the hadith mentioning 'BIL is DEATH' means nothing to u.. wow u really are blinded by desi culture.. Don't bother replying to my posts anymore, ur now on ignore..

ALL THE INFO IS ON SUNNIPATH AND OTHER REPUTABLE ISLAMIC SITES BUT OF COURSE JOLIE DOES NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO LOOK IT UP..

[NomiCA]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

@Deeba1234

So the hadith mentioning 'BIL is DEATH' means nothing to u.. wow u really are blinded by desi culture.. Don't bother replying to my posts anymore, ur now on ignore..

ALL THE INFO IS ON SUNNIPATH AND OTHER REPUTABLE ISLAMIC SITES BUT OF COURSE JOLIE DOES NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO LOOK IT UP..

if one is not sunni then? wil you consider that person kaafir?

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

I meant in terms of what they say about the joint family. Like it or not it's the truth but ppl who are blindly following culture will never see it.. Better to admit faults and mistakes then keep on pretending it must be right because we're the ones who are doing it or because that's what our parents, grandparents, great grandparents did. If u really believe us desis who practise our joint family system are right and practically all of the rest of the Muslim world is wrong I feel sorry for u.

Why non desi scholars should be blindly followed when it comes to joint family but not when they denounce many other our cultural practices (i.e the male-female mingling at South Asian weddings). I'm no a hypocrite.

And don't put words in my mouth, I'm not a blind fool suffering from inferior complex, besides religion practicaly every Muslim country has its own set of cultural norms and practices (and?) just because I don't follow them doesn't mean I have to come conclusion to pronouce them right or wrong. I simply don't care. So please don't make me laugh by saying you feel sorry for me not ass kissing the non desi culture, I have nothing to with them. I'm more concerned about findind a balance living in the country or communities I'm living, be it the West or Pakistan and ofcourse following the Quran and Hadiths.

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

What the hell is BIL is death?

Soory I don't search Islam on the internet.

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

if one is not sunni then? wil you consider that person kaafir?

Can u not read?** Where** did I say that??

It says 'Sunnipath' AND OTHER reputable Islamic sites..

*You two will never be able to back up ur opinions on the desi joint family system being 'equally ok' with actual Islamic references supporting them cos there aren't any that say it is..*

[Sara516]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

Cool. My workplace is full of non- mehrams, should I quit working and stay locked in my house?

If there are BIL and non mehrams at home, women would Islamically require to stay modest outside of their bedroom walls, that is if her husband cannot get her a seperate house. For women with severe phobia of na-mehrams, its best to marry the chap that made the deal providing her a seperate house.

Islam or those scholars for that matter also 'encourage' gazillions of other things, lets not pretend we their word on such matters becomes a mark in stone and its wholeheartedly follwed. Whatever I've seen of Pakistan, I can easily say we are influenced a lot by our culture than religion. Since a lot of people here would generally classify themselves as secularists, its funny to see them suddenly become nosy pesudo Islamists on handful of issues.

Um working/interacting with na-mehram men is different than living with one.
That's all I wanted to say. :runs away:

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

Love the lame attempts to divert the question by bleating on about 'worshipping scholars based on their ethnic backgrounds' lol. ASK A REPUTABLE IMAM OR LOOK IT UP. I HAVE PROVIDED REFERENCES IN THE PAST ON THIS FORUM. LOOK IT UP

Alright calm down and don't screem. Drink some cold water. lol

No it was you who was trying to divert the question with your bigoted comments about non desi scholars being superior. Sorry I look at the crediblity of the imam not his ethnic background. You can have fun getting lured by non desi imams' verdit on joint system you find on internet.

[NomiCA]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

@Sara516

Um working/interacting with na-mehram men is different than living with one. That's all I wanted to say. :runs away:

umm.....you make it sound like 'living in the room'.......like...no BIL lives in his bhaai bhaabi bedroom...most probably lives in separate room.....and i guess......if the woman is working...she spend more time outside the home than with the BIL.......

[Jolie]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

@Sara516

Um working/interacting with na-mehram men is different than living with one. That's all I wanted to say. :runs away:

Living with them doesn't mean you have a super cosy relationship with them. I've seen people being more concious about keeping distance with na-mehrams at home than at work. The way I interact with my male collegaue or Uni freinds is not how I interact with my BIL, there's another degree of formality and mannerism that I adopt.

[Deeba1234]

Re: why joint,why seprate???

@Sara516

Um working/interacting with na-mehram men is different than living with one. That's all I wanted to say. :runs away:

Their brains are too simple to understand this BASIC fact that everyone else apparently can understand. They don't know what 'BIL is death' means, whilst no-one else seems to have trouble seeing the implication and the reasoning behind the quote.. (as if there are shared showers and beds at work lol and chances to see members of the opposite sex naked by accident in the middle of the night or get 'cosy' with them, sharing meals etc)

The imams at all the large mosques (I go to Regents Park) will explain the facts regarding living with inlaws in easy language for those who can't get their heads around it..