Re: why joint,why seprate???
^ i will not get into that discussion.....but my point about clear priorities was that mostly the women posting here........they want to marry someone who wants to live with parents.....and then they complain about it.......so like i said.....if you can't live with his parents...don't marry such a person..plain and simple
ok...
clear idea...but it wont solve issues of women....
issue is else...im explaining in next post that all reply
Re: why joint,why seprate???
my qs is why mostly men wish to live in joint ? & why they prefer it for their own parents not in-laws?
even if in-laws doesnt have son & he has other brothers ?
Re: why joint,why seprate???
my qs is why mostly men wish to live in joint ? & why they prefer it for their own parents not in-laws? even if in-laws doesnt have son & he has other brothers ?
It is a 'norm' in desi culture...i don't know about others.....but it is a cultural thing.......thats a reason
just like the fact that girl's family pays the 'dowry' or 'jahaiz'...which also a cultural thing
NOTHING RELATED TO RELIGION IN THESE PREFERENCES
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^
so i wish no pakistani men dont bring islam name & parent's respect & caring & make drama of ooooooo mom grwoing up son & now need to be take care of by sons!
also jahiz & etc r very wrong...
so all i meant from first was refering cultures r not Ideal to follow & lets be brave to put off all negetive & stick to best in our cultures....then instead live happily with respect & care for our first & second family as well & due to pure islam... rather puting aside our parents or our partner or pressure partner or parents for nonsence issues...
not to mean abt pakistani culture but most ppl of world in any culture & religion
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^ so i wish no pakistani men dont bring islam name & parent's respect & caring & make drama of ooooooo mom grwoing up son & now need to be take care of by sons!
also jahiz & etc r very wrong...
so all i meant from first was refering cultures r not Ideal to follow & lets be brave to put off all negetive & stick to best in our cultures....then instead live happily with respect & care for our first & second family as well & due to pure islam... rather puting aside our parents or our partner or pressure partner or parents for nonsence issues...
not to mean abt pakistani culture but most ppl of world in any culture & religion
Who decides what is "best" in our culture? What you are referring as 'negetive' (joint family system) here is also considered the most cherished aspect of our culture. You are just too stubborn to respect this aspect of our culture and appreciate the good side of such practice (yes it does exist). I don't know why you are so hell bent of denouncing Pakistani culture in the name of Islam?
Fair enough if anyone doesn't agree with such norms, but can we get over the fantasy and anthusiasm of radicalising the norms just because we don't agree with them? Yes vast majority of Pakistanis are Muslims but we also have a unique cultural identity and norms as well, which can be so according to the spirit of Islam as long we put an effort into doing it right. Believing in joint family system doesn't make us any less Muslim!
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^
jolie...dont know wats wrong of discussion..many ppl here discusee...even see how many times nomic replied me but we dont fight!
its pakistani norms or not its not my issue...im not Enemy of pakistan or pakistanies...
just as new culture for me im discussing here thats all...im not fighting with ppl that u r getting angry on me that this that...
for me joint systemt wasnt in my mind since i brought up nor in my own marriage it was my headache but i was wondering to discover it for my own due to pakistanian girls & son & i saw fights of ppl here..
so i all meant wasnt leave ur norm or encourage but i meant lets think abt islam be4 norms...when its a new discussion among pakistanies that mostly girl wish seprate & men wants joint so instead fighting we can stick to islam & logic to solve issue instead thinking Norm is best...
thats all im not fighting with u ...nor anyone else...im just here to be familiar with pakistanies & i never think which culture or norm is good or not cuz all have advatanges & disadvantages & never ever ill not go blindly to any negtive point of my own culture rather whole ppl will say its a norm if its not norm for my logic & religion!
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^ jolie...dont know wats wrong of discussion..many ppl here discusee...even see how many times nomic replied me but we dont fight!
its pakistani norms or not its not my issue...im not Enemy of pakistan or pakistanies... just as new culture for me im discussing here thats all...im not fighting with ppl that u r getting angry on me that this that...
for me joint systemt wasnt in my mind since i brought up nor in my own marriage it was my headache but i was wondering to discover it for my own due to pakistanian girls & son & i saw fights of ppl here..
so i all meant wasnt leave ur norm or encourage but i meant lets think abt islam be4 norms...when its a new discussion among pakistanies that mostly girl wish seprate & men wants joint so instead fighting we can stick to islam & logic to solve issue instead thinking Norm is best...
thats all im not fighting with u ...nor anyone else...im just here to be familiar with pakistanies & i never think which culture or norm is good or not cuz all have advatanges & disadvantages & never ever ill not go blindly to any negtive point of my own culture rather whole ppl will say its a norm if its not norm for my logic & religion!
Was it you who was going all oh I can disclose my country's name, my husband said so, I'm following my husband's orders? If you on your husband's order cannot disclose your country's name, why can't a Pakistani wife move in with her husband's parents upon his request? I think you need to follow your own famous 'logic' in answering that question. Don't try to act all innocent. You know, our culture also encourage women to respect their husband's wishes as well.
Besides, define 'logic'? If you can come with a logic not to stay with inlaws, doesn't mean there's no logic that favours living in laws. You make your own logic for your preference. There's no textbook answers to such situations. As with Islam, find me evidence that goes against the idea of living in a joint family system.
All in all, we have some cultural norms which we are programmed to follow without really thinking that its the best or the worst. You don't need to get so caught up in this if you proudly claim to have nothing to do with them. Pakistan is a culturally very rich and diverse country, best thing is to acknowledge this fact even if you can't be arsed to appreciate it. Life will be easy.
Re: why joint,why seprate???
Logic and Islam can be easily be twisted to any side ..pro joint family/against joint family..
and logic and islam is different for different people..
you think that logic n islam go against joint family........which is YOUR logic and YOUR islam.....
so you can't say joint family system is against islam or logic......got my point paliz??
Re: why joint,why seprate???
Logic and Islam can be easily be twisted to any side ..pro joint family/against joint family..
and logic and islam is different for different people..
you think that logic n islam go against joint family........which is YOUR logic and YOUR islam.....
so you can't say joint family system is against islam or logic......got my point paliz??
i never said joint is against islam or logic...but when one side(its wife or hubby) doesnt wish to live in joint even joint is norm in culture so u shouldnt point out she is not good or after money or misrespecting or not caring...just she doesnt wish to go forward with a norm that its not on basic of islam to do it...even not against islam but its not islamically allowed to force somone ...thats all
for my own i can see logic regard wat me & hubby feel its best & wats logic means ? its means when we have an issue we talk abt all negetive & positive point & think abt our feelings & in end we can decide wats logic says out of cultures...
for joli
i still dont know wats issue that u wish to fight instead talk...its not abt i wish or hubby wish...its abt we talked & made agreement due to our personal...its not abt he is coming blindly after me or ill go blind...i trust him thats else & if there is a qs in my mind regard any of his requests ill ask & he will clear me then we will decide to do or not ...thats all abt sharing life
if u like joint system u like it or i dont like...i dont like...
i opened this thread that couples who r not in same level of thinking abt join or seprate think abt it from other views than norms or culture or ppl words...
Re: why joint,why seprate???
i never said joint is against islam or logic...but when one side(its wife or hubby) doesnt wish to live in joint even joint is norm in culture so u shouldnt point out she is not good or after money or misrespecting or not caring...just she doesnt wish to go forward with a norm that its not on basic of islam to do it...even not against islam but its not islamically allowed to force somone ...thats all
for my own i can see logic regard wat me & hubby feel its best & wats logic means ? its means when we have an issue we talk abt all negetive & positive point & think abt our feelings & in end we can decide wats logic says out of cultures...
for joli i still dont know wats issue that u wish to fight instead talk...its not abt i wish or hubby wish...its abt we talked & made agreement due to our personal...its not abt he is coming blindly after me or ill go blind...i trust him thats else & if there is a qs in my mind regard any of his requests ill ask & he will clear me then we will decide to do or not ...thats all abt sharing life
if u like joint system u like it or i dont like...i dont like... i opened this thread that couples who r not in same level of thinking abt join or seprate think abt it from other views than norms or culture or ppl words...
Exactly, you should also think about this agreement between couple idea when hurting your brain with thinking Pakistani women are 'forced' to live with their inlaws. Thats why I told you to follow your own famous logic in that regard.
And any girl who doesn't want to go along with the cultural norm can happily stay away from a man who wants to follow cultural practices, life will only be easier if women start being honest to themselves and the person they are about to bring in a lifelong committment. This Islamically not good to force someone talks can go both ways, i.e it could be also applied to those women who 'force' their men out of joint system.
Re: why joint,why seprate???
i said i opened this thread that ppl see diffrent ideas & not to be sticky in norms without thinking...for some couples joint may seem bset option while for some ppl its worst...i mean to see things from diffrent views dont stick to norms & keep ur mind on forcing...
a man who force his wife to live in joint its wrong...but if a wife force its same but mostly i see men only say we dont want go away cuz its our parents & dont find reason behind while mostly wives here blame on problems they have faced or will face in such style! logic means i see solution not only cuz i feel i say ok lets do it! if logic means feelings so both can say i feel this or that but for anything u should bring ur reason...
also now lets end this discussion as ur mind & my mind r clear & we have our own life to be going on ...just let other who has this problem married or engaged & didnt make agreement be4 they decide now...thoes who decided so its great but there should be ways for thoes who didnt decide & now wanna find their way
Re: why joint,why seprate???
This Islamically not good to force someone talks can go both ways, i.e it could be also applied to those women who 'force' their men out of joint system.
Not really if there are BILs or other non-mehrams living there (which obviously there are often are)..
There isn't a single non-desi scholar who promotes living with inlaws whilst living separate is actively encouraged by practically ALL of them (unless MIL or FIL are sick and/or lonely and even then there are conditions regarding the amount of space and privacy she is entitled to)..
Re: why joint,why seprate???
Not really if there are BILs or other non-mehrams living there (which obviously there are often are)..
There isn't a single non-desi scholar who promotes living with inlaws whilst living separate is actively encouraged by practically ALL of them (unless MIL or FIL are sick and/or lonely and even then there are conditions regarding the amount of space and privacy she is entitled to)..
Cool. My workplace is full of non- mehrams, should I quit working and stay locked in my house?
If there are BIL and non mehrams at home, women would Islamically require to stay modest outside of their bedroom walls, that is if her husband cannot get her a seperate house. For women with severe phobia of na-mehrams, its best to marry the chap that made the deal providing her a seperate house.
Islam or those scholars for that matter also 'encourage' gazillions of other things, lets not pretend we their word on such matters becomes a mark in stone and its wholeheartedly follwed. Whatever I've seen of Pakistan, I can easily say we are influenced a lot by our culture than religion. Since a lot of people here would generally classify themselves as secularists, its funny to see them suddenly become nosy pesudo Islamists on handful of issues.
Re: why joint,why seprate???
Cool. My workplace is full of non- mehrams, should I quit working and stay locked in my house?
If there are BIL and non mehrams at home, women would Islamically require to stay modest outside of their bedroom walls, that is if her husband cannot get her a seperate house. Perhaps she should've married the one that was able to provide her with a seperate home.
Islam or those scholars for that matter also 'encourage' gazillions of other things, lets not pretend their word on such matters becomes a mark in stone. Whatever I've seen of Pakistan, I can easily say we are influenced a lot by our culture than religion.
I was just answering ur incorrect statements that implied that there was no preference** Islamically **speakingbetween living separate or living with inlaws.. Whether or not ppl want to or not is down to them..
I do agree that it's better to find a guy who makes it clear from the start that he's willing to move out rather than pushing him against his will and creating all that resentment but then again in arranged marriage situations the girl doesn't often get much choice or input before marriage when it comes to living arrangements, even tho it falls under her basic rights..
Re: why joint,why seprate???
I believe we are quite far from the time, when guy and girl would just look at each other's picture and say yes and parents would call it 'arrange marriage'. Today, couple with 'arrange marriage' tag are lovers by the time wedding day comes, in other words they get enough chances to communicate with each other. If girl amidst all excitmen doesn't make herself clear (and I mean clear) about her basic requirements to her potential husband or parents then its her wasted opportunity. Its all about how strongly you feel about 'your basic rights' before marriage, when it matters. You can't just walk into the marriage thinking you'll have your way eventually by whinging enough later.
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^belive it or not...still many ppl marry or atleast engaged in arranged system where they dont have much chances to talk!
also as pakistani culture mostly push women to accept joint system so many desi girl even dont express this basic as they feel it will be tag on them as a misrespecting bahoo...
living in ur own space isnt a big demand ...demand means when u will expect something out of hand that usauly most boys can afford a small apartment..
but more than all i opened thread & called it WHY joint,WHY seprate?that ppl come & post their ideas with their mind behind it ,then if someone who stuck in this problem now he/she can see his/her problem from other views...
still there r many couples who have this problem...blaming their husband that forced them for joint or blaming wife who misrespct family...so instead blame & also saying she/he would demand from first now if we r married or engaged we should come on same point according situation now breaking wont solve issues!
Re: why joint,why seprate???
I was just answering ur incorrect statements that implied that there was no preference Islamically speakingbetween living separate or living with inlaws.. Whether or not ppl want to or not is down to them..
You say its incorrect......are you all all knowing...all wise?? i don't think......(not that your opinion is wrong)...
People do derive different meanings from islamic sources and texts and whatnot.........just because you think its right doesn't make it right or wrong for that matter...
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^There doesn't seem to be any dispute amongst (non-desi) scholars regarding it so no it's not just my opinion..
Coming on here and saying 'there is no preference in Islam, joint or separate are equally fine' IS wrong, whether u choose to follow it or not (if it was really considered acceptable either way other Muslim societies would also have the DIL moving right into inlaws home, the desi way, which they DON'T)..
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^There doesn't seem to be any dispute amongst (non-desi) scholars regarding it so no it's not just my opinion..
Coming on here and saying 'there is no preference in Islam, joint or separate are equally fine'** IS wrong,** whether u choose to follow it or not (if it was really considered acceptable either way other Muslim societies would also have the DIL moving right into inlaws home, the desi way, which they DON'T)..
Ok...whatever you say is right.....because you are not ready to accept the 'other version'....
so you are going to tell other person that his version is wrong...and yours is right....right?
that doesn't sound much different from the extremist/taaliban......they also say this.....'whatever we interpret to be islam is the only correct version......the rest are all wrong'...
Re: why joint,why seprate???
^OK, stay in denial about the** Islamic rulings** if u want, I couldn't care less..
**There are disputes and differing opinions about various other issues (eg women travelling) but obviously this is not one of them.. **The fact u can't post a single reference to back up what u say makes it clear, I have posted lots of relevant info in the past..
Anyone else who doubts it ask a real scholar or an imam from one of the larger main mosques (not the dodgy village maulvi who prob also doesn't see anything wrong with forced marriages and other cultural BS)..