Why do we need a madhab?

[diwana]

@AllahkaBanda

as-salamu alaykum

Bismillah

@OP

laypeople like us don't have a math-hab (madhab) and if someone wants to follow one then that is fine too but it is not an obligation as some muqalids tend to say it. All you have to do is ask any person of knowledge who is known for knowledge, piety and trustworthiness. You could limit yourself to just one group of people of knowledge but that will make things harder for you. As long as you are trying to get a correct answer and do your utmost best to find the right person, you're free of any sins, insha'Allah.

.................

Yes. That's what I say.

[Iconoclast]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

^That has been he opinion of all scholars since early Islamic period. They maintain that as long as you do an act completely according to any particular Fiqh, its okay and you can mix the madhabs. Like you can do wudhu according to Shafai Fiqh, pray according to Maliki Fiqh, fast according to Hanafi Fiqh, do Hajj according to Hanbali Fiqh, its fine. However, one should not mix the Fiqh qithin one act. Like in prayer, you do recitation according to hanafi and then tashahhud according to hanbali.

[cricketplaya]

@diwana

When I asked the questionI was referring to the fact that none of these four imams ever had spent time with or lived with the prophet SAW despite being close to the prophet saw time.

A person in these days has not only the information from quran and hadith but the work of all these imams.

If the person chooses to first bypass what these imams presented by directly searching the quran and hadiths and then look for ANY of these imams for guidance especially if the question is not answered, then the person still be a good muslim.

** Whatever works for this individual’s need should be acceptable.**

Following any ‘part’ of these imams teachings should be considered valid and sticking to just one imam in every aspect of life is bound to create unnecessary difference.

Hence, my position.

No need to follow one school of thought all the way. People are adamant about sticking to one madhab and even consider it sin if someone does something based on other madhab teachings.

Bro, so your saying people are more closer to the sunnah today than the previous generations? That’s going to be hard to prove even to the great scholars of today.

You can say a person can “look up” Quran and Hadith, but do you think the person has the ability to come to a conclusion within context of both? I don’t think so, it’s close to impossible unless that person is an aalim.

And no1 is saying that a person is a “bad” muslim when they look up Quran and sunnah themselves, just some ignorant minority who hold that view, they should be ignored.

That bold part of your post needs to be clarified. It could mean many things, most of the time it would mean FOLLOWING DESIRES which is totally unacceptable in Islam.

Unnecessary difference? No brother, all 4 are from sunnah, what difference are you talking about? All 4 have been thriving for the past generations, it is only now that people are starting to be arrogant and trying to poke holes in the tradition. IMO it has to do with the western mentality where “We are independent”. Nothing more.

The people who consider it a sin to not stick to 1 madhab, are again a tiny minority which should be ignored.

@diwana

What I meant that we consider all four to be good then why not follow all, part be part as it would fit the need and desire of an individual.

Strictly following one madhab or imam has done nothing good to muslims collectively. I am not sure if even these imams wanted this to happen.

You mentioned above a quote from a shiekh sahab, that everyone following different ways of islam based on his or her need will be devastating.

I beg to differ.

Nothing wrong in looking in to other idea and adopting it as long as major required acts are fulfilled.

Your example of 400000 hadiths may be valid (if there are 400,000 hadiths) But muslims are not supposed to be muftis for everyone.

They are suppose to follow life according to teachings of islam and major requirements.

Greay zone is open to interpretation for anyone. Like these imams themselves differ!

You want to follow all madhabs? Be my guest. Next time you touch your wife, make sure to do wudhu again because according to Shafi madhab, your wudhu breaks when you touch your wife. Now are you going to switch to Hanafi madhab in this case since in Hanafi madhab your wudhu doesn’t break when touching your wife? If yes, then your only following your desires and breaking apart the sunnah. So your argument doesn’t hold any weight. There are many other reasons where your desires will come before anything hence the position of sticking to 1 madhab has been carried on since generation after generation even by the great scholars of their time. If they stuck to 1 madhab, are we more intelligent than them?

And you have to back up your statements such as “Strictly following one madhab or imam has done nothing good to muslims collectively.” This is a strong position to hold. This only shows the narrow lens your looking through. The ignorant minority shouldn’t be the basis of your viewpoint bro. Let’s try to put everything in perspective and study history.

Obviously there’s nothing wrong in looking at other madhab, but for only educational purposes because again if you adopt from one madhab one thing and one thing from another, then you’ll have “Diwana’s madhab”. Then we would have a billion other madhabs. Here, Abdal-Hakim Murad put it best:

“With every Muslim now a proud mujtahid, and with taqlid dismissed as a sin rather than a humble and necessary virtue, the divergent views which caused such pain in our early history will surely break surface again. Instead of four madhhabs in harmony, we will have a billion madhhabs in bitter and self-righteous conflict. No more brilliant scheme for the destruction of Islam could ever have been devised”

Shaykh Faraz Rabbani’s (though he’s no longer at SunniPath) answer http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=3393&CATE=23

Also check out the new website just launched www.madhabs.com - it will be updated in the days to come, just subscribe to the updates. The talk is a must listen for all.

Bro, this is not to discourage you to seek knowledge, but this is the consensus of the scholars that to stick to 1 stream (ie, madhab) is the best way to follow Quran and sunnah as a whole. If we split, then we’d be splitting into billion madhabs. We should be thankful to Allah that the 4 madhabs have helped the ummah stick closer to the shariah and not split them apart like we’ve seen in the past century or so, all thanks to the jahil saudi family.

Allah knows best.

[diwana]

@cricketplaya

Bro, so your saying people are more closer to the sunnah today than the previous generations? That’s going to be hard to prove even to the great scholars of today.

You can say a person can “look up” Quran and Hadith, but do you think the person has the ability to come to a conclusion within context of both? I don’t think so, it’s close to impossible unless that person is an aalim.

And no1 is saying that a person is a “bad” muslim when they look up Quran and sunnah themselves, just some ignorant minority who hold that view, they should be ignored.

That bold part of your post needs to be clarified. It could mean many things, most of the time it would mean FOLLOWING DESIRES which is totally unacceptable in Islam.

Unnecessary difference? No brother, all 4 are from sunnah, what difference are you talking about? All 4 have been thriving for the past generations, it is only now that people are starting to be arrogant and trying to poke holes in the tradition. IMO it has to do with the western mentality where “We are independent”. Nothing more.

The people who consider it a sin to not stick to 1 madhab, are again a tiny minority which should be ignored.

You want to follow all madhabs? Be my guest. Next time you touch your wife, make sure to do wudhu again because according to Shafi madhab, your wudhu breaks when you touch your wife. Now are you going to switch to Hanafi madhab in this case since in Hanafi madhab your wudhu doesn’t break when touching your wife? If yes, then your only following your desires and breaking apart the sunnah. So your argument doesn’t hold any weight. There are many other reasons where your desires will come before anything hence the position of sticking to 1 madhab has been carried on since generation after generation even by the great scholars of their time. If they stuck to 1 madhab, are we more intelligent than them?

And you have to back up your statements such as “Strictly following one madhab or imam has done nothing good to muslims collectively.” This is a strong position to hold. This only shows the narrow lens your looking through. The ignorant minority shouldn’t be the basis of your viewpoint bro. Let’s try to put everything in perspective and study history.

Obviously there’s nothing wrong in looking at other madhab, but for only educational purposes because again if you adopt from one madhab one thing and one thing from another, then you’ll have “Diwana’s madhab”. Then we would have a billion other madhabs. Here, Abdal-Hakim Murad put it best:

“With every Muslim now a proud mujtahid, and with taqlid dismissed as a sin rather than a humble and necessary virtue, the divergent views which caused such pain in our early history will surely break surface again. Instead of four madhhabs in harmony, we will have a billion madhhabs in bitter and self-righteous conflict. No more brilliant scheme for the destruction of Islam could ever have been devised”

Shaykh Faraz Rabbani’s (though he’s no longer at SunniPath) answer http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=3393&CATE=23

Also check out the new website just launched www.madhabs.com - it will be updated in the days to come, just subscribe to the updates. The talk is a must listen for all.

Bro, this is not to discourage you to seek knowledge, but this is the consensus of the scholars that to stick to 1 stream (ie, madhab) is the best way to follow Quran and sunnah as a whole. If we split, then we’d be splitting into billion madhabs. We should be thankful to Allah that the 4 madhabs have helped the ummah stick closer to the shariah and not split them apart like we’ve seen in the past century or so, all thanks to the jahil saudi family.

Allah knows best.

If they are same then why people go to particular masjid and not to other?

I asked question earlier how many aalims of one madhab or fiqah say it is OK to follow other madhab?

And I did not say follow any of madhab without thinking yourself. Also I never said follow one madhab altogether.
If it is illogical to have wudu broken by merely touching one’s wife then obviously that person should just ignore it.

We do everyday ijtehad. No one does anything perfectly as it is written in the books on minor issues.

Al I say that this thinking of rigidly following one madhab only or considering one madhab only good one and other being ridiculus or wrong should be abolished.

I carefully used the word ‘need’ not ‘desire’ hoping no one get confused.

Even then what is wrong with exchanging or jumping on to other madhab partly based on desire only?

Afterall as you say all are derived from sunnah! Let the person feel free to choose and not be considered wrong

[diwana]

@Iconoclast

^That has been he opinion of all scholars since early Islamic period. They maintain that as long as you do an act completely according to any particular Fiqh, its okay and you can mix the madhabs. Like you can do wudhu according to Shafai Fiqh, pray according to Maliki Fiqh, fast according to Hanafi Fiqh, do Hajj according to Hanbali Fiqh, its fine. However, one should not mix the Fiqh qithin one act. Like in prayer, you do recitation according to hanafi and then tashahhud according to hanbali.

Yes. :)

[cricketplaya]

If they are same then why people go to particular masjid and not to other?

I asked question earlier how many aalims of one madhab or fiqah say it is OK to follow other madhab?

And I did not say follow any of madhab without thinking yourself. Also I never said follow one madhab altogether. If it is illogical to have wudu broken by merely touching one's wife then obviously that person should just ignore it.

We do everyday ijtehad. No one does anything perfectly as it is written in the books on minor issues.

Al I say that this thinking of rigidly following one madhab only or considering one madhab only good one and other being ridiculus or wrong should be abolished.

I carefully used the word 'need' not 'desire' hoping no one get confused.

Even then what is wrong with exchanging or jumping on to other madhab partly based on desire only?

Afterall as you say all are derived from sunnah! Let the person feel free to choose and not be considered wrong :)

Bro I sense most of your issue is to with the fighting between the laymen of each school. That shouldn't be the basis like I said, of your understanding of the issue. Let's clear our mind and forget the fighting (that happens even amongst a subgroup) and let's look into it with an open mind.

When you say Imam Shafi'i s ruling sounds "illogical" you got back that up, your challenging the view of the GREAT IMAM SHAFI'i and his students and the thousands of shafi'i scholars. :) That ruling has stood strong for a long long time, so we can't start passing judgments like that...

Each madhab is based on its own principle, from that the Imams derive their rulings. Now if you leave one principle, and start following another madhab's ruling (based on a different principle), you will end up contradicting yourself. :) Now you mention desires :D Following one's desires will only lead one astray. That's a known fact. Are we going to now break apart the Quran and sunnah based on our desires? That's insulting the religion, nothing more. I'm telling you, these "independent educated elite armchair scholars with their western mentality" are only damaging the ummah with their arrogance and their open disrespect to the works of the great Imams and their students and the hundreds of thousands of scholars who adapt madhabs as means to follow Quran and Sunnah.

Realistically, do you think we are more knowledgeable, smarter, wiser than the scholars of the last 1400 years? The majority of scholars who came before us in the past 1000+ years have stuck to a madhab, so are we going to now adapt the western mentality of "I'm independent and I'll do my own thing" ?? If you want to form 'diwana's madhab', bro nobody is stopping you :) you just have to study for a few decades and learn to interpret the Quran, interpret the hadith (in light of Quran and all other hadith)... if u can, let me know. :)

[diwana]

Bro I sense most of your issue is to with the fighting between the laymen of each school. That shouldn't be the basis like I said, of your understanding of the issue. Let's clear our mind and forget the fighting (that happens even amongst a subgroup) and let's look into it with an open mind.

When you say Imam Shafi'i s ruling sounds "illogical" you got back that up, your challenging the view of the GREAT IMAM SHAFI'i and his students and the thousands of shafi'i scholars. :) That ruling has stood strong for a long long time, so we can't start passing judgments like that...

Each madhab is based on its own principle, from that the Imams derive their rulings. Now if you leave one principle, and start following another madhab's ruling (based on a different principle), you will end up contradicting yourself. :) Now you mention desires :D Following one's desires will only lead one astray. That's a known fact. Are we going to now break apart the Quran and sunnah based on our desires? That's insulting the religion, nothing more. I'm telling you, these "independent educated elite armchair scholars with their western mentality" are only damaging the ummah with their arrogance and their open disrespect to the works of the great Imams and their students and the hundreds of thousands of scholars who adapt madhabs as means to follow Quran and Sunnah.

Realistically, do you think we are more knowledgeable, smarter, wiser than the scholars of the last 1400 years? The majority of scholars who came before us in the past 1000+ years have stuck to a madhab, so are we going to now adapt the western mentality of "I'm independent and I'll do my own thing" ?? If you want to form 'diwana's madhab', bro nobody is stopping you :) you just have to study for a few decades and learn to interpret the Quran, interpret the hadith (in light of Quran and all other hadith)... if u can, let me know. :)

I sincerely feel I am at fault of not being clear despite writing so many post and so many questions. Many of the questions were either not answered or understtod.

Let me clarify:

1- It is not just the 'fight' among people of different groups in Islam which I feel concerend.

2- It is also many muslims attitude towards Islam and their adamant behaviour to follow an Imam strictly thinking they must follow an Imam to be called muslims. This strong belef on one imam is bound to give rigidity in groups of people and strong division.

Please refer to other thread by hareem about barelvis and deobandis to see what I am talking about.

People including yourself love to point out which group one belongs to and which imam he she follows. :(

The names of groups and schools of thoughts are just mind boggling to say the least!

3- It is said repeatedly that all these four madhabs are from Sunnah then why worry about someone following part by part as the person deems fit in his or her life from ANY of these schools?

Why consider a person to be wrong if the person chooses for ANY reason ANY of the ruling from ANY of these schools at different time in his or her life.

I cannot be more clear I think what I am asking. I have chosen words very carefully again.

4- Regarding your eaxmple agai about wudu and any person to feel it as illogical is fine.

If other Imams do not agree with Imam Shafi's ruling then why worry about someone else not considering it correct? What kind of sin that person will commit to doubt Imam Shafi?

Obviously the issue of wudu in this regard was not clear from Sunnah 'enough' that these aalims themselves brought different rulings in this matter. Do you see the point here?

5- Similarly ANY ruling which differs among these imams is open for further interpretation and understanding by anyone. Which could be based on the time we are living in being very different than the time these imams came up with their rulings.

I am not talking about major issues here upon which all fours imams and any other school of thought including I must include a major sect of Shia Aalims. But if all five of them differ then there must be some 'problem'. Problem not in literal sense but in the sense that these issues must not be clear enough or strong enough that one should always hangs his hat on everytime one faces these issues in his life.

*These so called problem may be that hadiths are not clear enough. Interpreation of hadiths and scenarios are taken differently by every one or there are contradictory or different methods described in hadiths to perform one act. Even different books may cite the same hadith or event in different wordings. If this was not true then there should not have been so many contradictory rulings by these imams. *

Starting from Kalmah to Hajj, every act has different way of performing among these five groups.
Even how to address to the prophet has no consensus!

So don't even try please to say somehow they do not confuse a reader or do not cause one to doubt one or the other. Please admit the truth.

Forget imams for a second, now these farhat hashmi, zakir naik, Tahirul qadri, Taqi usmani followers are emerging rapidly! Over next 50 or 100 years people will call them 'imams' too. And argue among themselevs. A bit far fetched at this time but isn't this possible if we continue this trend? I know you will be upset that I talked about these people being at same level as previous imams but do we know for sure that this will not happen?

Have we not already made deobandis and barelvis from hanafi/sunni groups for example within the last few decades?

Similarly shias, ismailies etc. have made further groups over time.

You know why?

Becasue we are hell bent on following a person called 'imam', 'leader', 'a school' which is better than us **:) **and we are just sheep, lazy, or brainless human being!

6- At least I am not arguing about those major issues which are clearly accepted, in their crude sense, by at least these five groups. Fair enough? :)

[cricketplaya]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

1,2- I agree there is fighting in the school of thought but that is again a minority like I said. Your seeing it with a narrow lense, if you attend gatherings, you'll witness the brotherhood that exist. Unfortunately many of the people here who criticize (not pointing at you),, have never stepped into a gathering or only few times in their lives. That is why the negativity is highlighted much more than the positive. That's true in all cases, look at life1 forum, negative cases are given importance more because nobody is bothered with positivity.

3- Like I said, it's a matter of principle. You follow a principle, you can't jump from one to another. If for the last 1000 years the 4 school of thought have existed harmoniously, then what is the problem today? That is the question. I cannot explain it any further, you should ask a scholar.

4- When you say it's "fine to say the ruling is illogical", you're implying the sunnah is illogical in a way. Because the rulings are not of Imam Shafi'i himself but are backed up by the sunnah. Just like we have different way of praying amongst the four schools, all from the sunnah so we can't say the one is illogical and one is not.

5- Again, what do you mean by "anyone", you mean any Ahmad, Ali, or Zubair on the street can interpret however they like? That is what the disease this ummah is suffering from. Every other joe has his own interpretation which only splits the ummah into billion..

There were great scholars in our history, why only these 4 out of the thousands and thousands of scholars were 'followed' ? Makes you think, don't it? Obviously there will be ignorant people who will follow the present scholars (we can see it happening) no doubt about it. Let's not use this as a basis to criticize the "following" of the 4 great imams.

Lastly, please read up on these ismailis/aga khanis, qadianis..etc if you have not already, these are not Muslim school of thoughts. This thread is about the 4 Muslim schools of thought; Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali.

We can have another thread on the shia, ismaili, qadianis..etc

That's all I'm going to post about this subject because I've already posted what I know and could. :)

[diwana]

1,2- I agree there is fighting in the school of thought but that is again a minority like I said. Your seeing it with a narrow lense, if you attend gatherings, you'll witness the brotherhood that exist. Unfortunately many of the people here who criticize (not pointing at you),, have never stepped into a gathering or only few times in their lives. That is why the negativity is highlighted much more than the positive. That's true in all cases, look at life1 forum, negative cases are given importance more because nobody is bothered with positivity.

3- Like I said, it's a matter of principle. You follow a principle, you can't jump from one to another. If for the last 1000 years the 4 school of thought have existed harmoniously, then what is the problem today? That is the question. I cannot explain it any further, you should ask a scholar.

4- When you say it's "fine to say the ruling is illogical", you're implying the sunnah is illogical in a way. Because the rulings are not of Imam Shafi'i himself but are backed up by the sunnah. Just like we have different way of praying amongst the four schools, all from the sunnah so we can't say the one is illogical and one is not.

5- Again, what do you mean by "anyone", you mean any Ahmad, Ali, or Zubair on the street can interpret however they like? That is what the disease this ummah is suffering from. Every other joe has his own interpretation which only splits the ummah into billion..

There were great scholars in our history, why only these 4 out of the thousands and thousands of scholars were 'followed' ? Makes you think, don't it? Obviously there will be ignorant people who will follow the present scholars (we can see it happening) no doubt about it. Let's not use this as a basis to criticize the "following" of the 4 great imams.

Lastly, please read up on these ismailis/aga khanis, qadianis..etc if you have not already, these are not Muslim school of thoughts. This thread is about the 4 Muslim schools of thought; Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali.

We can have another thread on the shia, ismaili, qadianis..etc

That's all I'm going to post about this subject because I've already posted what I know and could. :)

3- I know you may not answer but here the main question comes!

Who made this principle?

Allah almighty or the prophet SAW?

4-If it was really truly from the prophet SAW then why other imams ruled against it? Least they could do is to keep BOTH imam shafi and their rulings to be valid.

5- Yes if ahmed, ali or zubair reads up, takes time to search the question enough as the question comes along. Not necessarily sticking to the made up 'principle' you mentioned.

So why even four and then their further divisons? why not one?

I know something about ismalilies, shia and ahmadis. All I wanted to mention the 'mindset' which people have which is the root cause of the problems, not necessarily the 'fight' and bickering' among people.

The root cause is:

A- Being adamant on following a group leader called 'imam' without searching, learning or even thinking on your own.

Meaning being a robot (I have already used the word sheep many times)** who is programmed to follow a school of thought or another human being who came AFTER the prophet SAW without giving a second thought.**

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry I was not able to see you accept or refute 'the truth' which I mentioned and having no comment on the deobandi/barelvi divisions already made because of ill defined issues which are or were open for interpretaions despite having four imams (according to you being harmonious)for centuries. :)

Lastly: As the esence of my position.

Following something partly from each madhab = Tolerance and is not a sin as it was not prohibited (nor dictated) by Allah or his prophet saw. Remember, Imams came AFTER the prophet SAW.

Following one madhab only (and making a false 'principle') = Intolerance (meaning you might be rejecting something good which was taken by other imam from the sunnah!

In my humble understanding, islam does not expect people to follow religion or its rulings blindly.

There are many iyahs in quran to ask people to think and ponder and angels were enough for Allah to follow his command without thinking! There would not have been any need of human being if blind followers were intended by almighty! I think there is a book written by a convert "Even Angels Asked". ...............They said" Are we not enough? ( I have discussed this to death with psyah bro in the past)

[hanibal]

@cricketplaya

Imam Abu Hanifa has transmitted hadith from 16(known) sahaba, among them, Anas ibn Malik, Jabir ibn Abdullah, Sahl ibn Saad, Abdullah ibn Jafar, Abdullah ibn Abi Awfa (RZA). It is known that since Abu Hanfia (R) was closer to narration of sahaba and/or some sahaba that Hanafi madhab is much more widely practiced.

Hanafi Madhab is being practicsed in Northern South Asia, parts of Central Asia and Greater Syrian region... does this make the other followers, which include, South Indians, Srilankan, Parts of Far-Eastern, Arabian Penisulian any less muslim by not following Hanafi cult???

I don't think that Imam Shafi, Malik and Hanbal are any less of Imam Abu Hanifa, infact all the scholars of Islam, Such as Imam Tamimi, Ghazali, Ibn-e-Jozi, Asqilani, Muslim, Bukhari and others are of same status and have served Islam and people of Allah with complete devotion and determination...

I am not undermining Imam Abu Hanifa, but just to have some food for thought, Imam Bukhari ( who has the honor compiling one of the best known book of Ahadith) has rejected many Ahadith ( some say numbers of those rejected ahadith is more than 300,000), those ahadith did included ahadith reported by Imam Abu Hanifa... Again this is only food for thought..

@cricketplaya

My point was that their closeness to the Sahaba was much stronger than our closeness is today because the narration was much stronger and much alive in the people of those days than the people of today. If you point out a layman like me and ask me to tell the chain of narration of any hadith, I'd fail miserably. But if you had asked those pious and great Imams or even some of the people in those times, they would tell you right away. You see where I'm getting at, we need the knowledge of Imams and the madhabs to stick to the sunnah. Without them you have a broken chain. Just like ahadith, without one or two sahaba in the chain, you have a broken chain. Tradition must carry on.

U are right my friend, Tabay'een and Followers of Tabayéen were much better and learned person than we are, no wonder Allah have said it in Sura-e-Waqaya and on many other occasions that the most pious persons would be from the earlier part and fewer shall be from the later... but does that take our duty to just follow anyone blindly, again as per Quran following someone blindly can lead us to fires of Hell ( May Allah save us all from it)

I can quote an incident of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal, as he was passing by, he heard someone saying that Imam Ahmed bhi Hanbal has reported this Hadith, and when Imam Ahmed asked the person ( known as Qaseeda-go, lots of them were found in that era, 10 of thousands exists in this era) that he never said anything like that, the person replied so what...?

It is our duty to acquire enough knowledge to differentiate between right and wrong...not doing can be considered as our laziness and this can be punished ( although Allah all mighty is 1000 time more merciful than punisher and i pray to have his mercy on us in this and in other World (Ameen))

Those Great people have done great deal of work, now it is our duty to carry on with that work and further develop it with the changing times ( as they have done in their respective time) and not to create factions and disunity in the name of those Great people of our History.

@cricketplaya

And it's not easy to learn the arabic of the Quran and write/read/understand the complexity of the language, not to mention in just a few months. I know students of deen who are becoming Alims, maybe you know some too, it's not something which can be learned part time.

Yes it is not easy, but what is easy in this world, nothing is easy my friend, we all should be students of deen and these students are not like ordinary student that goes to any particular college in particular time and then after graduation goes for job hunting or businesses, if we decide to be student of Deen, then it is life time job, it never ends, no one masters it ( the only master was The Prophet (SAAW)), we are students and remain student, to me it is Science and very interesting Science and as mathematics and numbers are my favorite subjects, even Deen is been said in the same format... look at the Aya's of Quran, they have said in particular order, having opening and closing of brackets...

I am only a mere student of Islam, maybe a below average one, with average iq, but my friend, you are far more intelligent then me, you are more brighter then me and because of that i cannot suggest and/or advice anything to you, but do read and do research on each an every aya of Quran, you'll feel your self in different world, yes do that ( and i am sure you are doing it already) read all what all the scholars have said... i think i got carried away.. back to topic!!!

@cricketplaya

Brother, let's not equate the sunnah as garment shop. :) Maybe a different example... let's use streams and river..? I've heard this example before.. 4 Imams= 4 streams leading to the 1 river = Sunnah of Prophet sallallhu alayhi wasallam and that river leading us to the Sea = Allah (SWT). :)

Now can you pick and choose which stream to travel on? Of course you can but only at the start because you can't jump stream to stream can you? :) There are matters in madhab, which are particular, when we pick and chose, we are doing it for our own pleasure not for the pleasure of Allah by following the sunnah.

can a thirsty man drink from all the streams, yes it is not possible to drink from all the streams at same time, but during his journey, can he drink from different streams at different times?

@cricketplaya

Yes that is exactly why the need of madhabs. For example (brothers correct me if im forgetting the names).. Umar (RA) said if a man ejaculates in the bedroom of his wife then ghusl is not needed, but Abu Bakr(RA), Uthman (RA) and Ali (RA) said NO. So Umar(RA)'s opinion was outright rejected by all including the 4 Imams. Now let's say a layman picks up Buhkari sharif and finds this hadith, what do you think he'll do? :)

A hadith about those give rulings based on their limited or no knowledge (the knowledge without any understanding of the the religion) "Whoever is given a legal opinion (fatwa) without knowledge, his sin is but upon the person who gave him the opinion" (Abu Dawud, 3.321)

That is exactly my point, Sahaba (RZA) did have difference of Opinion, but no cult and/or school of thought merged out of it... it just remained as difference of opinion..

@cricketplaya

Today we say we can understand our own Islam by reading the Quran. But most of us only read the translation of the Quran, and you know better than me that these translations are just translations, far from perfect.

That is why i said, read and then have a research on it.. just not read it for having 30 good deeds for one word... Quran has lot more power than we try to take out of it... the book demands respect and seek no marriages or wrapped in any perfumed cloth and kept in the top-most ( mostly un-reachable spot) in the house, look at illiterates of Arabain Penisula, in 30 years, by respecting the book they defeated the collective power of Iran & Rome, superpower then...

Today, because of our following of different Madhabs, we try to get hold of experts of that particular madhab ( mufti etc) and try to get verdict to justify our actions... this is not we meant to do, we are one of the best nation ( are we ?) taken from the people, our job is to provide people with the best system ever.... and that can be achieved by practicing Quran and Sunnah ( when i say sunnah it includes Ahadith and Sunnat-e-Rasool (SAAW)... and not by following by some-so-called Aalim who claims that the news of his birth was communicated by Prophet (SAAW) to his father.. yes i am talking about Tahir-ul-Qadri

@cricketplaya

This is one famous incident when a man asked Imam Ahmad(R) when is a man a scholar?: "When a man has memorized 100,000 hadiths, is he a scholar of Sacred Law, a faqih?" And he said, "No." The man asked, "200,000 then?" And he said, "No." The man asked, "Then 300,000?" And he said, "No." The man asked, "400,000?" And Ahmad gestured with his hand to signify "about that many" (Ibn al-Qayyim).

No comments on this incident..

@cricketplaya

This only gives us an idea of how much knowledge is required...

Same way unless we are planning to study deen seriously full time then I guess we could start deriving rulings... (though the serious students will be scared to death because trust me the knowledge these students (now scholars) attain, it only gives them assurance that following the great imams is where it's safe and not inventing something new..) :)

And when we'll have time for it? in today's world, making money has taken so much of our time that we have not left with any??? we do not have time to "Indulge" in any activity which don't have any significant short or long term return let alone depending on the returns promised in other world... like i said earlier, Deen is so vast that one lifetime is not enough cover all aspect of it ( i say it because i keep a below average guy like me as a standard), but yes some people are learned, they are continuously learning every day and more they learn and understand, the more they are pious and preacher of unification... if you can sit with these, than nothing like that..

@cricketplaya

With all due respect, I think the Salafis have done a lot of damage to this ummah by introducing this fitna of "picking and choosing".. in the last century or so. Ask the great scholars, they'll tell you how it was like for their teachers and their teachers ... it was rare to find salafis like we do today (the likes of Zakir Naik et al).. IMO the saying "Petro Dollars at work" is true say..! All these fly to Saudi for their education, I wonder why... :)

And you have assumed me as Salafi!!! Thanks bro... i wonder if you are aware of the consequences of having false assumption about some one... ( hopefully you never meant to say it and it is Devil in me, making me believe that yes you have said it me)
After being called salafi, i don't think i am left with anything to say... May Allah Help us all in this and in the other world...

[cricketplaya]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

Brothers, let me make it clear again, I am not labeling anyone in this thread. I am commenting on my limited knowledge of the new school of thought that has emerged (salafis).. And I also do not hold the view of following one Imam is better than following the other, nor do I hold the view of one Imam is better than the other. I don't hold the ignorant view of "following another madhab ruling is a sin", that is not what I've been taught and that is not what the 4 scholars preached nor their students to this day. ** I respect all 4 scholars equally**, I only mentioned Imam Abu Hanifa since his school has the largest following and that is the school I belong to. Alhamdulillah. All from the Quran and Sunnah.

Again, like I said, that's all I'm going to post on this subject because of my very very limited knowledge. Please forgive me if my posts were in negative tone, that was not my intention. If we have questions we should direct them to the people of knowledge like Allah says in the Quran. InshAllah. :)

[hareem01]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

CP

I can't believe you're still debating. lol

Hanibal

If Imam Bukhari didn't include Imam Abu Hanifa's ahadith in his book it doesn't mean that he had some personal dushmni with him. Imam Bukhari included only those ahadith which don't have any broken chains of narration, that's all, also not all Sahih ahadith are included in Sahih al-Bukhari. Seriously, people need to stop being crooked.

Btw, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani Imam al-Ghazali and Imam Bukhari(student of Imam Hanbal) were Shafi by fiqh and imam Muslim(student of Imam Bukhari) was either Hanbali or Shafi. All these scholars you follow or name were follower of a madhab so there should be no debate on this.

On one side you're saying that scholars re no less than each other and on the other hand you're trying to prove that some are being "rejected" by some.

[diwana]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

^
No one suggested any of these good people had any personal 'dushmani' with other one. :)

[hanibal]

CP

I can't believe you're still debating. lol

Hanibal

If Imam Bukhari didn't include Imam Abu Hanifa's ahadith in his book it doesn't mean that he had some personal dushmni with him. Imam Bukhari included only those ahadith which don't have any broken chains of narration, that's all, also not all Sahih ahadith are included in Sahih al-Bukhari. Seriously, people need to stop being crooked.

Btw, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani Imam al-Ghazali and Imam Bukhari(student of Imam Hanbal) were Shafi by fiqh and imam Muslim(student of Imam Bukhari) was either Hanbali or Shafi. All these scholars you follow or name were follower of a madhab so there should be no debate on this.

On one side you're saying that scholars re no less than each other and on the other hand you're trying to prove that some are being "rejected" by some.

Peace to you

[cricketplaya]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

:k:

the book: http://islamfinland.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/legal-status-of-following-a-madhab.pdf

[diwana]

@cricketplaya

:k:

the book: http://islamfinland.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/legal-status-of-following-a-madhab.pdf

I am aware of this logic.

Unfortunately it has many weaknesses or potential for problems.

[diwana]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

@cricketplaya

The people of knowledge are scholars (as pointed out in commentaries of Quran). How will we know who the scholars are? We have to look at the traditional ulema, not the ones that pop out of Medina university or any other university. Like hadith, you need a strong chain right? Just like that the traditional ulema go back (in one way or another) to Rasulullah SAW. Silsila you can call it. For example, Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmed sahab has his silsila: http://www.tasawwuf.org/shaykh/silsilah.htm **Obviously you look at their righteousness, piety, humility, taqwa, ikhlas…etc **
Maybe other brothers can explain it better but that’s the simplest way I can put it.

And the issue of responsibility, of course it’s the duty of every Muslim to find out the proofs of the rulings if he can, but there is no sin on him if he can’t. He’s trusting the ulema as Allah advised us. Who knows more? Allah or the jahil saudi kingdom that is responsible for this anti-madhab mess?

btw, I remembered this (on the topic of becoming a mujtahid)

Originally Posted by Abdal-Hakim Murad
In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad

***(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds; ***

***(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above; ***

***(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text]; ***

***(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached; ***

***(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions; ***

***(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah); ***

***(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah; ***

***(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty. **for himself. These conditions include: *

and on the same subject, Abdal-Hakim Murad beautifully explains our current “anti-madhab” climate:

Quote:

In a Western-influenced global culture in which people are urged from early childhood to think for themselves and to challenge established authority, it can sometimes be difficult to muster enough humility to recognise ones own limitations. We are all a little like Pharaoh: our egos are by nature resistant to the idea that anyone else might be much more intelligent or learned than ourselves. The belief that ordinary Muslims, even if they know Arabic, are qualified to derive rulings of the Shariah for themselves, is an example of this egotism running wild. To young people proud of their own judgement, and unfamiliar with the complexity of the sources and the brilliance of authentic scholarship, this can be an effective trap, which ends by luring them away from the orthodox path of Islam and into an unintentional agenda of provoking deep divisions among the Muslims. The fact that all the great scholars of the religion, including the hadith experts, themselves belonged to madhhabs, and required their students to belong to madhhabs, seems to have been forgotten. Self-esteem has won a major victory here over common sense and Islamic responsibility.

The Holy Quran commands Muslims to use their minds and reflective capacities; and the issue of following qualified scholarship is an area in which this faculty must be very carefully deployed. The basic point should be appreciated that no categoric difference exists between usul al-fiqh and any other specialised science requiring lengthy training. Shaykh Said Ramadan al-Buti, who has articulated the orthodox response to the anti-Madhhab trend in his book: Non-Madhhabism: The Greatest Bida Threatening the Islamic Sharia, likes to compare the science of deriving rulings to that of medicine. “If ones child is seriously ill”, he asks, “does one look for oneself in the medical textbooks for the proper diagnosis and cure, or should one go to a trained medical practitioner?” Clearly, sanity dictates the latter option. And so it is in matters of religion, which are in reality even more important and potentially hazardous: we would be both foolish and irresponsible to try to look through the sources ourselves, and become our own muftis. Instead, we should recognise that those who have spent their entire lives studying the Sunnah and the principles of law are far less likely to be mistaken than we are.

Another metaphor might be added to this, this time borrowed from astronomy. We might compare the Quranic verses and the hadiths to the stars. With the naked eye, we are unable to see many of them clearly; so we need a telescope. If we are foolish, or proud, we may try to build one ourselves. If we are sensible and modest, however, we will be happy to use one built for us by Imam al-Shafi’i or Ibn Hanbal, and refined, polished and improved by generations of great astronomers. A madhhab is, after all, nothing more than a piece of precision equipment enabling us to see Islam with the maximum clarity possible. If we use our own devices, our amateurish attempts will inevitably distort our vision.

A third image might also be deployed. An ancient building, for instance the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, might seem imperfect to some who worship in it. Young enthusiasts, burning with a desire to make the building still more exquisite and well-made (and no doubt more in conformity with their own time-bound preferences), might gain access to the crypts and basements which lie under the structure, and, on the basis of their own understanding of the principles of architecture, try to adjust the foundations and pillars which support the great edifice above them. They will not, of course, bother to consult professional architects, except perhaps one or two whose rhetoric pleases them nor will they be guided by the books and memoirs of those who have maintained the structure over the centuries. Their zeal and pride leaves them with no time for that. Groping through the basements, they bring out their picks and drills, and set to work with their usual enthusiasm.

There is a real danger that Sunni Islam is being treated in a similar fashion. The edifice has stood for centuries, withstanding the most bitter blows of its enemies. Only from within can it be weakened. No doubt, Islam has its intelligent foes among whom this fact is well-known. The spectacle of the disunity and fitnas which divided the early Muslims despite their superior piety, and the solidity and cohesiveness of Sunnism after the final codification of the Shariah in the four Schools of the great Imams, must have put ideas into many a malevolent head. This is not to suggest in any way that those who attack the great madhhabs are the conscious tools of Islam’s enemies. But it may go some way to explaining why they will continue to be well-publicised and well-funded, while the orthodox alternative is starved of resources. With every Muslim now a proud mujtahid, and with taqlid dismissed as a sin rather than a humble and necessary virtue, the divergent views which caused such pain in our early history will surely break surface again. Instead of four madhhabs in harmony, we will have a billion madhhabs in bitter and self-righteous conflict. No more brilliant scheme for the destruction of Islam could ever have been devised.
In a Western-influenced global culture in which people are urged from early childhood to think for themselves and to challenge established authority, it can sometimes be difficult to muster enough humility to recognise ones own limitations. We are all a little like Pharaoh: our egos are by nature resistant to the idea that anyone else might be much more intelligent or learned than ourselves. The belief that ordinary Muslims, even if they know Arabic, are qualified to derive rulings of the Shariah for themselves, is an example of this egotism running wild. To young people proud of their own judgement, and unfamiliar with the complexity of the sources and the brilliance of authentic scholarship, this can be an effective trap, which ends by luring them away from the orthodox path of Islam and into an unintentional agenda of provoking deep divisions among the Muslims. The fact that all the great scholars of the religion, including the hadith experts, themselves belonged to madhhabs, and required their students to belong to madhhabs, seems to have been forgotten. Self-esteem has won a major victory here over common sense and Islamic responsibility.

The Holy Quran commands Muslims to use their minds and reflective capacities; and the issue of following qualified scholarship is an area in which this faculty must be very carefully deployed. The basic point should be appreciated that no categoric difference exists between usul al-fiqh and any other specialised science requiring lengthy training. Shaykh Said Ramadan al-Buti, who has articulated the orthodox response to the anti-Madhhab trend in his book: Non-Madhhabism: The Greatest Bida Threatening the Islamic Sharia, likes to compare the science of deriving rulings to that of medicine. “If ones child is seriously ill”, he asks, “does one look for oneself in the medical textbooks for the proper diagnosis and cure, or should one go to a trained medical practitioner?” Clearly, sanity dictates the latter option. And so it is in matters of religion, which are in reality even more important and potentially hazardous: we would be both foolish and irresponsible to try to look through the sources ourselves, and become our own muftis. Instead, we should recognise that those who have spent their entire lives studying the Sunnah and the principles of law are far less likely to be mistaken than we are.

Another metaphor might be added to this, this time borrowed from astronomy. We might compare the Quranic verses and the hadiths to the stars. With the naked eye, we are unable to see many of them clearly; so we need a telescope. If we are foolish, or proud, we may try to build one ourselves. If we are sensible and modest, however, we will be happy to use one built for us by Imam al-Shafi’i or Ibn Hanbal, and refined, polished and improved by generations of great astronomers. A madhhab is, after all, nothing more than a piece of precision equipment enabling us to see Islam with the maximum clarity possible. If we use our own devices, our amateurish attempts will inevitably distort our vision.

A third image might also be deployed. An ancient building, for instance the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, might seem imperfect to some who worship in it. Young enthusiasts, burning with a desire to make the building still more exquisite and well-made (and no doubt more in conformity with their own time-bound preferences), might gain access to the crypts and basements which lie under the structure, and, on the basis of their own understanding of the principles of architecture, try to adjust the foundations and pillars which support the great edifice above them. They will not, of course, bother to consult professional architects, except perhaps one or two whose rhetoric pleases them nor will they be guided by the books and memoirs of those who have maintained the structure over the centuries. Their zeal and pride leaves them with no time for that. Groping through the basements, they bring out their picks and drills, and set to work with their usual enthusiasm.

There is a real danger that Sunni Islam is being treated in a similar fashion. The edifice has stood for centuries, withstanding the most bitter blows of its enemies. Only from within can it be weakened. No doubt, Islam has its intelligent foes among whom this fact is well-known. The spectacle of the disunity and fitnas which divided the early Muslims despite their superior piety, and the solidity and cohesiveness of Sunnism after the final codification of the Shariah in the four Schools of the great Imams, must have put ideas into many a malevolent head. This is not to suggest in any way that those who attack the great madhhabs are the conscious tools of Islam’s enemies. But it may go some way to explaining why they will continue to be well-publicised and well-funded, while the orthodox alternative is starved of resources. With every Muslim now a proud mujtahid, and with taqlid dismissed as a sin rather than a humble and necessary virtue, the divergent views which caused such pain in our early history will surely break surface again. Instead of four madhhabs in harmony, we will have a billion madhhabs in bitter and self-righteous conflict. No more brilliant scheme for the destruction of Islam could ever have been devised.

If you want, you can read the full article here: Understanding the Four Madhhabs (with footnotes)

This is what your post said in other thread.

There are certain misconceptions and mistakes people do commonly when they speak of religion.

1- They try to compare religion with scientific knowledge to prove that just like one needs a ‘teacher’ for worldly knowledge one needs a teacher for EVERYTHING to learn about religion or do ANY act in his or her life.

Certainly if you are searching openly about the religion you must go to DIFFERENT people of knowledge and then think and make your decision. But this still does not mean one does not even try to search on his or her own to at least read the source of the religion like reading the quran or hadith books…various books. Not just one.

2- Also, the famous example given by people is: When you are sick do you go to the doctor or read the medicasl disagnosis or treatment book on your onw to find solution for any medical problem?

Here the mistake people do is that these issues and any scientific knowledge like math, physics etc. deal with something which can be proven or disproven in during your life time or be measured.

A sick person will stay sick and will know the answer.

BUT

In religious matters no one will know the answer till the person is dead and meets the Almighty.

Even though the test books for the test are available in religion, and the exam questions are available, NO ONE can be sure till death if the person did the act right or wrong.

Hence, comparing religion to scientific knowledge is flawed. Weather it is to prove the religion or disprove its validity. One cannot weigh an elephant using a goldsmith balance!

Other part of your post about being mujtahid is also a made up philosophy.

You are allowed to follow your instict if it is based on quran and sunnah and you are faced with day to day issues.

And if all four or five schools of thoughts do not agree with each other, then nothing wrong wih following ANY one at ANY time of your life. ( I think I have said this above somewhere)

I will post the answer to your long quote of abdul-hakim Murad later, since this post is already getting long and you might lose the attention.

[cricketplaya]

Re: Why do we need a madhab?

^ yes.. I didn't want to continue in this thread like I said :) Let's end it here unless there's something new that you want to discuss.

[diwana]

^ yes.. I didn't want to continue in this thread like I said :) Let's end it here unless there's something **new **that you want to discuss.

New? You did not even get the 'old' right. Agreed though. :)

[cricketplaya]

New? You did not even get the 'old' right. Agreed though. :)

ah you just edited your post. anyways bro, im not here to 'convert' you, just trying to educate myself on the history of madhaib and why scholars have stuck to madhaib all along. you say everything is flawed, i guess you already have assumed what's right in ur mind, so there's no discussing further right?