Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
there is nothing wrong with the word. since Allah has banned being shiaism for us, it is detestable to be one. to permenently be be one is kufr, and proof you are a shiite is that you have nothing to do with the Prophet SAW (amongst other proofs)
you were the guy that didnt acknowledge the blank you got from shiaism regarding etikaf so i doubt your sincerety in any case
I asked for source buddy....if u dont have any ask ALLAH for forgivness for lieng on ALLAHS name.
My question abt eitkaf is still in ur head, go back to thread and read again. I dunt have a dinsours brain to argue with follower of Mahviya.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
I agree tht it says wonderful things…Prophet SAWW said I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate…and not only his words have wisdom but they r literal beauty too…
u wud agree that anyone who goes against the principles of Islam needs to be condemned and rebuked…be it they r companions, a family members or what have u…for Imam Ali it was Islam and its principles that mattered and nothing else…
well we haven’t established anything so how can I disapprove them?..al-islam.org is not a regular propaganda churning website and by quickly looking at the discrepancies u r pointing towards I can see where ur misunderstanding might be…so we will wait until we discuss it…
what u think is correct…let me clarify that me defending azadari in principle does not mean that anything or everything that takes place under its name is sacred and right…same goes for milad or any other ritual…
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
A person who beleives Abu Bakar is better than Ali a.s coz Abu bakar is first Caliph and Ali is fourth... Knowing that the decision was made by humans can not be a learned person.
that below the belt punching buddy.......not nice given he is respectful towards u.......remember the scholars of Najran when they visited the Prophet SAWW and debated him for 3 days inside the mosque?
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
what u think is correct......let me clarify that me defending azadari in principle does not mean that anything or everything that takes place under its name is sacred and right...........same goes for milad or any other ritual......
Very valid point indeed. I will quote Iqbal;
Allah say keray door tou taaleem bhi fitna
Imlaak bhi, aulaad bhi, jaageer bhi fitna
Na-haq k liye uthay tou shamsheer bhi fitna
Shamsheer he kia, nara-e-takbeer bhi fitna
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
that below the belt punching buddy.......not nice given he is respectful towards u.......remember the scholars of Najran when they visited the Prophet SAWW and debated him for 3 days inside the mosque?
Apologies for bad shot... We r on this forum for over 3-4 years atleast i am. By now i know who can be reasonable and who i need to ignore. Examples r Psyah, Lathel kamikaze, Mughal e.t.c u can argue base on quran, hadith and logic, I considered Ibn-e-siddique in this panel, but after some logic less arguments i have realised that he is more of Sharmanny and wellwisher than psyah or LK.
Not a learned person in my opinion.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Every thing happens with the Will of Allah (swt) whether good or bad.
Whatever is good it pleases Allah (swt) - Thus Imam Ali (ra) states that Allah (swt) was pleased with appointments Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them)
I didn’t expect you to agree with that 'cos I know you are a Shia. My apologies for repeating a sentence - It was getting a bit late.
Thank you for correcting my reference - Indeed it was not lecture 6 - It should be letter 6 of Nahjul Balagha. I am sure you knew that.
Below is the correct and accurate translation of the above.
Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
You r rite i figured u meant letter but i wanted to remind u it was a letter, which is written to mahviya.
I donno how u got ur hands on this letter if u google searched “shia kafir” and got it from a anti shia website then u need to read the book and if u read the book then u must know that Mola Ali a.s is putting same logic on Mahviyas neck that was once put on him.
if u have actually read nahjul blagha, then u need to read letter 28 again, let me quote part of it…
**“You want to impress the world with the idea that I envied all the previous caliphs and that I was jealous of them. Even if I grant this, I want to know what right and authority have you to ask for an explanation from me? You have no place in religion to talk of such things. You also want to taunt me by saying that when I refused to accept the caliphate of the First Caliph I was dragged like a camel with a rope round my neck and every kind of cruelty and humiliation was leveled against me. I swear by my life that by talking like that you want to bring disgrace to me but you are actually doing the greatest service to me and are disgracing yourself as well as the cause that you pretend to support.
****There is no disgrace for a Muslim if he is subjected to tyranny and suppression so long as he is firm in his faith and belief in Allah and religion. This is exactly what I say that every cruelty and tyranny was leveled against me to deprive me of the right which Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) have given me and this is exactly what you do not want to acknowledge and accept. Your taunts against me go a long way to prove that in reality there was no election, it was a coup d’etat followed by brutal force which decided the fate of caliphate by making it neither hereditary nor elective but possessive. I have no desire to go into these details but you brought in the subject and I was forced to explain a few points about it.”
**http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter28.htm#letter28
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Allah say keray door tou taaleem bhi fitna
Imlaak bhi, aulaad bhi, jaageer bhi fitna
Na-haq k liye uthay tou shamsheer bhi fitna
Shamsheer he kia, nara-e-takbeer bhi fitna
wow..he sure has said a lot in those few lines....alas we have not paid heed to what he was saying back then....
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Every thing happens with the Will of Allah (swt) whether good or bad.
actually only good comes from Allah......and evil is a result of man denying the guidance of Allah.......Quran say "Whatever benefit comes to you (O man!), it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you (O Prophet!), to mankind as a messenger; and Allah is sufficient as a witness." (Nissa:79)
[quote]
Whatever is good it pleases Allah (swt) - Thus Imam Ali (ra) states that Allah (swt) was pleased with appointments Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them)
[/QUOTE]
so if u say that Allah was pleased with the selection of Abu Bakr then did Maula Ali, bani hasim and the noble companions went against the pleasure of Allah by refusing to pledge baya to Abu Bakr? this is a fact agreed by all of all Sunni scholars and historians from ibn Qutayba, Bukhari, Massudi, Ibn Abi Alhadid.....
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Salaam **Aqeel ** First and foremost if you are really honest and love honesty then you should censure and condemn all the Shia sites who knowingly and willingly with evil in their minds mistranslated Imam Ali’s (ra) letter.
This evil deed was done just to score cheap advantage in fooling the people believing into Falsehood.
Was there no fear of Allah (swt) in their hearts?
So this proves that Shias will stoop to any level, using all means whether halal or haraam by hook or crook to meet their goal of deceiving the honest people.
In other words Tuqiyyah at work
I don’t have to go to anti shia sites to dig out the TRUTH.
I have a very dear friend who in an Iranian from a very prominent Shia family, having done his own research said good bye to Shiaism a decade ago. He is source of my information.
He is well versed in Shia Sunni issues. Six to Seven years ago he was source of frustration and irritation for Shias on debating forums.
He is the author of now famous article – “How to debate with Shia”. I was so impressed with the article that posted it on couple of forums.
Firstly Sunnis do not agree with authenticity of Nahjul Balagha.
In the above sermon Hz. Ali is contradicting himself with Letter 6 in Nahjul Balagha where he deemed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman’s (May Allah be pleased with all)selection as the right of Muhajireen and Ansar and it was done with pleasure of Allah (swt).
If at all Hz. Ali (ra) was divine appointed as successor to the Prophet (saw) he has no right to relieve himself from the great appointment.
Refer to Sermon 91 of Nahjul Balagha
When people decided to Swear allegiance at Amir al-mu’minin’s hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:
Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. **Nahjul Balagha SERMON 91 **
Here he asking the people choose anyone they want and he will willingly follow him!!!
Can a divinely appointed person dare do this??? NEVER!
Refer to Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) resolve and reaction when asked by his dear uncle to go ‘easy’ on deities.
*
Abu Talib who was aware of the cost that his nephew Muhammad had to pay if deserted . Abu Talib sent for Muhammad and told him the news, “Spare me and yourself and put not burden on me that I can’t bear”. Muhammad thought that his uncle would let him down and would no longer support him, so he replied: “O my uncle! by God if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandon this course, until God has made me victorious, or I perish therein, I would not abandon it.” Muhammad got up, and as he turned away, his uncle called back and then said “Go and preach what you please, for by God I will never forsake you.”.*
Refer the following ayahs. Prophet Muhammad (saw) is clearly ordered and warned to carry out his mission or faces the consequences!!
*“O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allaah will protect you from mankind” [al-Maa’idah 5:67]
“And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allaah),
We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),
And then We certainly would have cut off his life artery (aorta),
And none of you could have withheld Us from (punishing) him” [al-Haaqqah 69:44-47] *
Good now you got problem with 90% of believers – because they have similar beliefs to that of mine. – Tough luck.
[200] – And we affirm the khilaafah (caliphate), after the Messenger of Allaah sall Allaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam firstly for: Aboo Bakr as-Siddeeq (radi Allaahu anhu) – affirming his excellence and precedence over the whole of the Ummah; then, for ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (radi Allaahu anhu); then for ‘Uthmaan (radi Allaahu anhu), then for ‘Alee ibn Abee Taalib (radi Allaahu anhu), and they are the rightly guided khulafaa (caliphs) and the rightly guided Imaams.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
I believe the mourning has more to do with the injustice of the death, the slaughter rather than the fact that they did die.
it is INJUSTICE that shia's speak out against in their matam.
Death comes to all.
From my limited understanding, this is what I gathered also. (not trolling, found topic interesting, and found your post in agreement with my understanding)
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Bilkul. Islam does enjoin us to practice sabr and to mourn in silence except when an injustice has been done.
earlier I have quoted the quranic verse where we are told to do so, be dignified in mourning but to speak out against injustice.
From my limited understanding, this is what I gathered also. (not trolling, found topic interesting, and found your post in agreement with my understanding)
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
While people were more concerned about a political seat of power, Hz Ali (ra) was concerned with the spiritual guiding of the peoples. These quotes in no way prove any contradictions.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Wasn't that Waleed Bin Utbah killed in Ghazwa e Badr?
^these were 2 ppl with the same name......one was Hinda's bro.......the other was the half bro of the 3rd caliph and served him as the governor of Kufa where he famously led a fajr congragetional prayer to 4 rakats while under the influence of alcohol.....and later as governor of Madina.....it was him who asked Imam Hussein in Madina for the bayat of Yazid.......
As per Tareekh e Tabri, Waleed bin Utbah refused to kill or act against Hazrat Hussain (RA) after he refused for Bayt of Yazeed and when Marwaan bin Hakam asked for justification he replied: "If I'm given all the wealth of the world, I would not kill Hussain (RA) because it will destroy my din o imaan'.
It is also mentioned in Tareekh e Tabri that short after this incident, Waleed was removed from Governorship of Medina and Umru bin Saeed was appointed as Governor in his place.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Just take a look at heaps of curses, abuses, and calls of takfir in this thread. This is why I have stopped discussing religion. The hatred some people possess makes them a bigot, and one can never argue with a bigot. It's just a waste of your time and energy.
**Religion of many "Muslims" is not Islam. It is Intolerance.
**Heck, the level of intolerance I see here is worst than any of the political sections we have here. What to talk of the criteria of moderators here who allow such hateful name-calling.
Carry on with these hate-inciting discussions among yourselves while Israel is sitting right in the middle of the sea of Muslims, and Muslims can do NOTHING.
Oh, and it is not the first time. Muslims were brought to their knees earlier when their central government of Baghdad fell to Mongols earlier. And that was the zenith of Muslim power.
So carry on. The only thing Muslims can do is to cuss. Cuss themselves and cuss others.
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
As per Tareekh e Tabri, Waleed bin Utbah refused to kill or act against Hazrat Hussain (RA) after he refused for Bayt of Yazeed and when Marwaan bin Hakam asked for justification he replied: "If I'm given all the wealth of the world, I would not kill Hussain (RA) because it will destroy my din o imaan'.
It is also mentioned in Tareekh e Tabri that short after this incident, Waleed was removed from Governorship of Medina and Umru bin Saeed was appointed as Governor in his place.
That is true......even in the battle of Jamal.....though he was on opposition side, he used did speak against injustices of his side.....but unfortunately he took part in the crimes too.......he had drinking problem.......
Re: Why do Shias beat upon themselves on 9/10 muharram
Just take a look at heaps of curses, abuses, and calls of takfir in this thread. This is why I have stopped discussing religion. The hatred some people possess makes them a bigot, and one can never argue with a bigot. It's just a waste of your time and energy.
**Religion of many "Muslims" is not Islam. It is Intolerance.
**Heck, the level of intolerance I see here is worst than any of the political sections we have here. What to talk of the criteria of moderators here who allow such hateful name-calling.
Carry on with these hate-inciting discussions among yourselves while Israel is sitting right in the middle of the sea of Muslims, and Muslims can do NOTHING.
Oh, and it is not the first time. Muslims were brought to their knees earlier when their central government of Baghdad fell to Mongols earlier. And that was the zenith of Muslim power.
So carry on. The only thing Muslims can do is to cuss. Cuss themselves and cuss others.
Actually....there discussion in not too bad compared to the ones we normally witness.......there is only 1 idiot who keeps showing his worth every now and again.......we just ignore him or keep putting him in his place.....anyway....
But tell me though.....when reality is that we have this division or differences.......shouldn't we be civilized and discuss them and try to at least understand each other?......or we will give way.to extremists to take advantage and invite hate using our differences.....what do u say?
