Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

The idea of morality came from religion. Religion better knows how to make people moral. Religious people do not act morally to avoid hell. Because acts like, charity (except zakat), helping others, are not mandatory in religion but the framework religion provides make people act moral without being frightened of hell.
So the argument, religious people act moral to avoid hell is FALSE.

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

Real test of morality is when you don’t have. Look at real religious people they act moral even while being poor. A poor atheist is more likely to act immoral than a poor religious.

[Southie]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

^ Re: above two post: any stats to back it up? Else it is just opinion.

Not sure how one proves some position by simply stating it is true.

[Shak]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@ajazali

The idea of morality came from religion. Religion better knows how to make people moral. Religious people do not act morally to avoid hell. Because acts like, charity (except zakat), helping others, are not mandatory in religion but the framework religion provides make people act moral without being frightened of hell.
So the argument, religious people act moral to avoid hell is FALSE.

False. Know plenty of non-religious people whose parents have never been religious and they are far more moral then frankly I can ever be.

Second bolded sentence doesn’t make sense to me, no offence. You’re saying they don’t do good to not go to hell but do it so they don’t have to be scared of hell? That sentence doesn’t make sense. If they do it for heaven ONLY then that can be deemed selfish too. I would help someone because its my moral duty as a fellow man AND because its in all our deens.

@ajazali

Real test of morality is when you don’t have. Look at real religious people they act moral even while being poor. A poor atheist is more likely to act immoral than a poor religious.

And how did you conclude that?

As I said people are misrepresenting Islam as usual. There are hakool-ul-Ibad and Hakool Allah. If a religious person does the second one without doing the first one then that IS the definition of being selfish.

Moral codes aren’t bred into a person by religion, otherwise we can say all the terrorists, where is their morality? They believe yours and my religion too. If an atheist read your post and said hey isn’t it Islam who is giving the Taliban morality too (which is what the Taliban believe) would you consider their view valid?

A mother’s love or staying away from rape and murder aren’t conditioned in a person by religion. I don’t remember my family having to sit down to me and tell me not to do such crimes. My ability to do no crimes is because I am a decent human being or I try to be. These moral codes are written in us and praying to God helps me remember that but that does not make any person who isn’t religious any immoral than me.

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@09

False. Know plenty of non-religious people whose parents have never been religious and they are far more moral then frankly I can ever be.

Second bolded sentence doesn’t make sense to me, no offence. You’re saying they don’t do good to not go to hell but do it so they don’t have to be scared of hell? That sentence doesn’t make sense. If they do it for heaven ONLY then that can be deemed selfish too. I would help someone because its my moral duty as a fellow man AND because its in all our deens.

Ok, can you tell us who introduced the idea of morality?
Some moral acts are not mandatory in religion means people will not go to hell even if they don’t do that. But religious people do follow those acts out enlightenment of religion. Now, you can question whether enlightenment exists or does not.
If religious person does moral act for afterlife reward even then that act, for atheist, as per worldly rules is selfless act. because for atheist after life reward means nothing.

And how did you conclude that?

That is somewhat i have personally observed. This article does not address poor atheist specifically but see this article with survey.
Are Atheists More Moral than the Religious? | Religion Dispatches

I know you can get few points in favour of atheists from this article but you raise those, i will try to refute.

As I said people are misrepresenting Islam as usual. There are hakool-ul-Ibad and Hakool Allah. If a religious person does the second one without doing the first one then that IS the definition of being selfish.

Moral codes aren’t bred into a person by religion, otherwise we can say all the terrorists, where is their morality? They believe yours and my religion too. If an atheist read your post and said hey isn’t it Islam who is giving the Taliban morality too (which is what the Taliban believe) would you consider their view valid?

If their acts are in the name of religion that doesnt mean religion endorses that.
Do you aggree that if we follow religion in its true sense then we cannot act immoral?

A mother’s love or staying away from rape and murder aren’t conditioned in a person by religion. I don’t remember my family having to sit down to me and tell me not to do such crimes. My ability to do no crimes is because I am a decent human being or I try to be. These moral codes are written in us and praying to God helps me remember that but that does not make any person who isn’t religious any immoral than me.

because you are grown up of an environment where rape is considered bad thing. rape is a bad thing has been told to this world by religion.
Do you think human beings by default know what is good and what is bad?
and same is the case with animals?

[psyah]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@09

You misunderstood my point completely and misunderstood the context in which I used the word happy. Someone giving money or giving their time, either of which they could be spending on themselves, IS selfless and would make them happy BECAUSE they’re making a difference in this world. And not because they’re feeling bigheaded at giving charity.

While, if we use your own logic, a theist’s main reason for doing so is avoiding hell i.e. making sure HE doesn’t burn. You will hear people say ‘‘hey I am doing it for God’’. Why sir? So God doesn’t send me to hell. How can you argue that isn’t more selfish?

Again, this is a mini example. I know religious people (my family included who are far more religious than the average Joe) help others because it makes them happy that they are making a difference and because it pleases God. Therefore as I said earlier anyone who spends their time giving money for charity in my opinion does it to make peoples’ lives better. Saying Group B’s intentions are more noble due to their belief/disbelief in God is a tad unfair and I am surprised a poster of your quality is making that distinction.

I understood you very well … and you are proving me right … atheists can not understand ever doing something that know should be done but will not do it because it might make them sad … In other words they are less likely to be motivated on principle even if it means harming their own interests … I can give you an example if you still don’t understand … and that is the case here - you do not understand me that is why you are bringing the non-argument of “so I don’t get sent to hell” … It is a non-argument because I didn’t use it …

Across the atheist world the idea of martyrdom is not there … they would fight for their countries if they will win and suffer least losses. Look at the idea in the Qur’an … where the couple who had kids gave their only food up for the visitors who were sent to them by RasoolAllah (SAW) … they sent their kids hungry to bed - just so they could treat the guests with honour … this type of sacrifice can only come with intense belief …

While I am here @Shamraz

Bill Gates … Born to religious Christians is now an agnostic - so he does have a belief in God albeit not a follower of a religion … And even in his case the giving of a person who does not need it himself is lower in moral order than the giving of the person who does need it and still gives it.

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

When i see iPhone 5s costs Apple $199 and is sold for $649, it makes me think they give charity for their business promotion.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@psyah

While I am here @Shamraz

Bill Gates … Born to religious Christians is now an agnostic -so he does have a belief in God albeit not a follower of a religion… And even in his case the giving of a person who does not need it himself is lower in moral order than the giving of the person who does need it and still gives it.

Agnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable.[1][2][3] Agnosticism sometimes indicates doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. According to the philosopher William L. Rowe, in the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.[2]

[queer]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@ajazali

Real test of morality is when you don’t have. Look at real religious people they act moral even while being poor. A poor atheist is more likely to act immoral than a poor religious.

@ajazali

When i see iPhone 5s costs Apple $199 and is sold for $649, it makes me think they give charity for their business promotion.

classic quotes from the narrow mind of the religious sorts..

[Theorist]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@ajazali

i was replying you by your logic where you said morality varies culture to culture. I believe moral values are standard, you believe they are not standard. interestingly, you give example as if moral values are standard.
if stealing is immoral then how can you say morality is subjective?

There is a morality spectrum. Some acts are standard immoral like lying and stealing. The entire world believes in regardless of culture, race, or nationality. Then there are acts that can be argued to be moral/immoral. For example, eating meat is immoral to many because they see it as murder of innocent. Then you have acts like fornicating, drinking, substance abuse, and self-harm. These acts are immoral due to your beliefs. For many, these acts are moral as long it doesn’t affect them.

morality IS subjective otherwise we won’t be having this debate.

[Theorist]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@psyah

It does not matter if it is subjective … because although it may be subejctive between people - each person ought to qualify morality according to his own criteria and then look at both atheists and theists … when I mentally and subjectively compare the two groups I ignore for the moment the fact that I believe being a believer in One God is the best of the moral codes. So to make it fair I judge the two on other criteria that they can both be compared against.

Perhaps it is subjective … But even in your own subjectivity if you did a test to find the most moral people according to your own subjective criteria … who will number in the top ranks?

Just a rhetorical question … if you want to answer it - then please provide your criteria first.

I can prove to you that morality is not that subjective - not really … there are huge trends in major aspects - you will be hard tasked to find a morally high thing that another will deem as being morally low … yes may be not as high or as low - but opposites are unlikely.

I think cultural morality is different than religious morality. Under the cultural morality umbrella, you will most of agreeing on what is moral and what is not. It is so because most of live in the west and we collectively know what is moral and what is not culturally. Morality is hugely subjective. It doesn’t matter what you say. The fact we are having this conversation is the proof of it.

[Theorist]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@ajazali

Real test of morality is when you don’t have. Look at real religious people they act moral even while being poor. A poor atheist is more likely to act immoral than a poor religious.

What if I told you atheists account for only 2% to 5% of the entire world population. I don’t know how accurate this is by the way. You are telling me that 2% to 5% is more likely to act immorally than the 98%. Wow!

that is two to five poor atheists to ninety five to ninety eight poor theists. I really wonder how much a poor man really cares about morality when his kids are dying of hunger. Is it really moral to let them die because it is immoral to steal a loaf of bread? What is moral in this case?

[diwana]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

No idea why the discussion has gone in UkheR PachaaR (hair splitting) of morality/immorality. :no:

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@Theorist

There is a morality spectrum. Some acts are standard immoral like lying and stealing. The entire world believes in regardless of culture, race, or nationality. Then there are acts that can be argued to be moral/immoral. For example, eating meat is immoral to many because they see it as murder of innocent. Then you have acts like fornicating, drinking, substance abuse, and self-harm. These acts are immoral due to your beliefs. For many, these acts are moral as long it doesn’t affect them.

morality IS subjective otherwise we won’t be having this debate.

Atheists are not even agreed to the bolded part. Because they know this can be extended to standardize the moral values. And, they are against it only because they believe idea of morality and other ideas like, good and bad came from religion. This is the real point of conflict.
Interestingly, what atheists themselves do not deny, some of people here are denying those things on behalf of atheists.

[Theorist]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

^ or maybe it is you in denial. People have different beliefs and morals. Just because something seems immoral to you doesn’t mean it is immoral for others. Guess what? You do not set the standards of morality and neither does anyone else. You have as much of a right to pick and choose as anyone else. Get over it!

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@Theorist

^ or maybe it is you in denial. People have different beliefs and morals. Just because something seems immoral to you doesn’t mean it is immoral for others. Guess what? You do not set the standards of morality and neither does anyone else. You have as much of a right to pick and choose as anyone else. Get over it!

And just because you can choose to differ on view of morality doesnt mean morality can contradict in reality.

[Theorist]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@ajazali

And just because you can choose to differ on view of morality doesnt mean morality can contradict in reality.

And who decides what morality is? For you it is your belief system. For me, it is my upbringing and my life experiences. I have never looked at religion as the source of morality. I am not telling you where you get your morality from then why do you insist on telling me where my immorality is coming from?

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@Theorist

And who decides what morality is? For you it is your belief system. For me, it is my upbringing and my life experiences. I have never looked at religion as the source of morality. I am not telling you where you get your morality from then why do you insist on telling me where my immorality is coming from?

lolz.
That altleast proves my argument true, that morality actually does not exist for disbelievers. And I am saying it again, it will lead to contradiction and disaster.

p.s. i am not calling you disbeliever, its just for the sake of argument.

[ajazali]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@diwana

No idea why the discussion has gone in UkheR PachaaR (hair splitting) of morality/immorality. :no:

OP is asking why religious people preach.
I remained silent unless queer implied that religious people are kind of sick people as they think they are saving people from hell.
Then i replied queer, “the disbelievers, who have contradicting view of morality, would not save this world either.”

Maybe you find it irrelevant, but i use this kind of theory as an argument for why we should preach. although there are many other spiritual benefits of belief in divine but I use this argument when they challenge/mock my belief.

[Theorist]

Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?

@ajazali

lolz.
That altleast proves my argument true, **that morality actually does not exist for disbelievers. **And I am saying it again, it will lead to contradiction and disaster.

p.s. i am not calling you disbeliever, its just for the sake of argument.

Wow! You have got to be kidding me. You seem related to Diwana.