Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
If you think different people have different view/ meaning of morality then you should not tell me you have been moral because you dont know what type of view of morality i have.
well, this is tricky, maybe you couldn’t get.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
**This post is particularly addressed to Muslim posters (practicing or non-practicing both) and I would like to have their response on the queries raised below. **
I have personally faced this ‘you are destined to hell’ at very young age from a madarsa molvi, after I stopped memorising Quran (Hifz) in between. That molvi said these words to me at the gate of masjid and result was natural. I stopped going to masjid and could resume after few years. This all contributed to a disliking for such elements in society and I’ve been discussing this attitude with close friends and on this forum as well.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/635605-tone-and-content-while-preaching.html
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/all-views/570391-why-ibaadat-brings-pride.html
This all background made lines against religious folks (read as Mulla) catchy to me. Be it Bulleh Shah, Shah Latif, Waris Shah, everyone attracted me with their lines. But, this never resulted in denial of existence of God as somehow I know that my religion is not property of some Mulla. I didn’t need any complex theory and empirical evidence as a proof for my beliefs. I felt presence of Allah in my life all the way through thick and thin. He was always there when I needed Him. He was the way-out , when I felt there is no way. With the material regarding Seerat (from different writers Muslim and Non-Muslims), I came across during all this period, I didn’t find anyone criticizing the Prophet (SAW) for his honesty and truthfulness. That always reconfirmed that what is written in Quran is true and from Allah.
Having said all this, I have these questions in my mind and want the Muslims (who are supposed to follow word of Allah) to come up with their responses:
What do you think is the concept of ‘Amr bil maroof wa nahi anil Munkar’? Does it not cover telling people whats right and what wrong and what could be the consequences for not following words of Allah ( that are not someone’s personal words who make you afraid of hell)?
There is a concept of Gunah (sin) and there is a concept of sticking to /insisting on sin. What would you say for the attitude ‘whatever people say, because I’m all educated and these petty Mullas with bigot thoughts can’t impose that on me’.
Lets agree ‘Deen e Mullah, Fasad Fi sabilillah’ and they have presented bad image of Islam before the world? list down the contribution of elite, educated, liberal Muslims for Islam other than being apologetic and chanting all day and night separation of state and religion?
Did Allah sent His prophet (SAW) to pronounce certain rituals (which were already there. People of Makka were moral enough and Islam didn’t bring any positive change in their morality). Wasn’t Islam a total struggle for exploited people. if it wasn’t why elite and liberals of that time like Abu Jahhal and Abu Lahab remained away and slaves like Bilal (RA) were attracted towards it? Was Bilal (RA) attracted towards newly pronounced rituals? People sacrificed their lives , left their families just for rituals?
If you agree that Islam was a movement for change and it brought positive changes in that time, why can’t message of Islam be used in that way in today’s time? Aren’t we hiding our own deficiencies and have made Mullah a scapegoat? If Mullahs are incompetent, why don’t you come on front to convey true image of Islam? Do you just held title for the sake of it, because you were born in a Muslim family? If you can’t do that , why don’t you throw this useless title away to be free from all the hypocrisies?
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
You know extremists are found in every group … Hardcore Atheists and Hardcore Theists share something in common … Irrational Bias, Fascism … However I am yet to see atheists equal anywhere near the theists in the extent of their brilliance of moral conduct, although I’ll admit atheists can be morally driven people …
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Is lying and stealing moral to you? If not, then I was correct in saying my behavior remained moral even by your standard throughout my years of atheism. You said yourself we have different views of morality then why preach to others about hell and heaven?
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Really?
I guess it is really subjective.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Oxfam? Red Cross? I have worked at the latter and all of them were atheists and extremely moral people. In contrast most religious people I know are stingy and selfish.
Which proves nothing but that morality isn’t driven by religion. That statement is even more surprising considering how shocking the Middle Ages were and even now large parts of the Muslim world!
There have been times, I would say right now as well, where I have questioned what I believe. But let me assure you my morals haven’t changed. I am still old me who believes in fairness and respect to everyone.
I have never thought hey I have to be nice to someone because it says so in Islam, I always have been like that to people because of who I am and because its common decency.
To say atheists are immoral beings or lack the same morality is the same as when atheists call Muslims terrorists.
Illogical.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
All the atheists i have seen are immoral, bloodthirsty rapists. Now my argument carries so much weight, it could sink a ship.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
i was replying you by your logic where you said morality varies culture to culture. I believe moral values are standard, you believe they are not standard. interestingly, you give example as if moral values are standard.
if stealing is immoral then how can you say morality is subjective?
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Peace 09
Both Oxfam (set-up by Quakers - Theists) and Red Cross (set-up by Calvinists - Theists) hire a multitude of people … I didn’t say atheists aren’t morally driven - I said and will rephrase that if you put the best of the theists and the best of the atheists - morally higher ground will be with the theists for obvious reasons … it is because atheists will always look for personal benefit whereas theists can do things for no foreseeable benefit of their own because they believe in an afterlife.
I also said the worst of the people will number from both sides … but not the best …
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
It does not matter if it is subjective … because although it may be subejctive between people - each person ought to qualify morality according to his own criteria and then look at both atheists and theists … when I mentally and subjectively compare the two groups I ignore for the moment the fact that I believe being a believer in One God is the best of the moral codes. So to make it fair I judge the two on other criteria that they can both be compared against.
Perhaps it is subjective … But even in your own subjectivity if you did a test to find the most moral people according to your own subjective criteria … who will number in the top ranks?
Just a rhetorical question … if you want to answer it - then please provide your criteria first.
I can prove to you that morality is not that subjective - not really … there are huge trends in major aspects - you will be hard tasked to find a morally high thing that another will deem as being morally low … yes may be not as high or as low - but opposites are unlikely.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
" it is because atheists will always look for personal benefit whereas theists can do things for no foreseeable benefit of their own because they believe in an afterlife."
Logic dictates the exact reverse is true. Atheists do the right thing just because. Theists, since they believe in afterlife, do the right thing because of the rewards that await them.
Now, this is based on your statement. Personally I believe there is good and evil among all categories.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
to him, morality includes things like condemning homosexuals, religious minorities that are considered blasphemers, sticking to religiously prescribed dress code etc. is it any wonder the religious ones are the flag holders in “morality”.
now if it were practial applications of morality… the balance would be all the way around. religious folks can’t seem to implement a thing. just good at preaching.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Peace,
Theists do good stuff so they get good deeds from God and hence get saved from hell fire. Isn’t that doing it for your own benefit as well? Because that is exactly what it is.‘‘Hey I will do a good deed so I don’t get thrown in hell’’. Saving yourself by doing a good deed I would argue is even more selfish. And no Pysah. Some people do things because it makes them happy and not because of some personal benefit.
Now I am not saying everyone is like that. I think religious and non-religious people who are unselfish do good things because it makes them happy that they are making a difference in the world. Its really simple IMO.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Simple answer: a person can’t be noble/humble/pious in his/her life until he loves for others what he loves for himself and whenever he say something he should say good or remain silent.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
My statement is based on empirical evidence … the afterlife is not foreseeable …
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
You didn’t understand me earlier … but your own response should give you the understanding … doing things to make them happy … as opposed to doing things that they feel they ought to do even if it makes them on the short-term unhappy is the contrast that I am bringing to you between atheists and some theists … It would betray reason - which drives atheists to do anything that ultimately does not make them “happy” … that is not limiting to theists.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Yes, that is why atheist Bill Gates is using his fortune, that he made using his brain, to eradicate polio from Pakistan’s tribal areas, and good God fearing religious Taliban are killing polio workers. If there is God I’m sure he will side with Taliban in an afterlife.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Arey Psyah bhai sahab
Aap keh kya rahe hain? What is meant by “empitical evidence”? Aiseich aapney googly, doosra aur teesra eka hi geynd mei daal kar balley baaj ki baynd bajaa dee!
Been a long time, sir. Give my regards to the lady. Hope things are well at your end.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
Wrong question. Based on misguidance.
True and sincere attitude is based on…
Wama Alena Illa Al Balaghul Mubeen.
Quran 36:17?
Also:
Quran 16:125
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.
Above are universally acceptable Islamic and only **general **rules of engagement.
Re: Why do religious people think they must prevent everyone from going to hell?
You misunderstood my point completely and misunderstood the context in which I used the word happy. Someone giving money or giving their time, either of which they could be spending on themselves, IS selfless and would make them happy BECAUSE they’re making a difference in this world. And not because they’re feeling bigheaded at giving charity.
While, if we use your own logic, a theist’s main reason for doing so is avoiding hell i.e. making sure HE doesn’t burn. You will hear people say ‘‘hey I am doing it for God’’. Why sir? So God doesn’t send me to hell. How can you argue that isn’t more selfish?
Again, this is a mini example. I know religious people (my family included who are far more religious than the average Joe) help others because it makes them happy that they are making a difference and because it pleases God. Therefore as I said earlier anyone who spends their time giving money for charity in my opinion does it to make peoples’ lives better. Saying Group B’s intentions are more noble due to their belief/disbelief in God is a tad unfair and I am surprised a poster of your quality is making that distinction.