Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

1) Men and women are generally equal memory-wise. 2) Women are better than men at remembering emotional things. This means their emotional memory is better . 3) but When women are in an emotional situation they cannot recall things very well. 4) but men can. Because they're better at controlling emotions.

(and these are psychological facts)

[who told you that men are more prone to Alzheimer Disease]

If women can't recall things well from events in which they were emotional, then how is their emotional memory better? (#3 contradicts #2).

You're not making much sense. There is no correlation between memory or even emotional memory between the sexes. A man who goes thru a rough acute stressful event is going to remember every second of it just like a female will. In prolonged periods of stress however, cortisol levels rise up, and can damage the hippocampus, resulting in memory impairment.

[hareem01]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

If women can't recall things well from events in which they were emotional, then how is their emotional memory better? .

i did'nt say like this.

read again

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Oh my God, if you can't see that you're contradicting yourself, then fine, be stubborn and keep accepting the grand illusion that women are inferior to men, and justify it how you will. But fact of the matter is that women are moving very ahead in life. And there's not much that your buk buk can do to stop that.

[hareem01]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Oh my God, if you can't see that you're contradicting yourself, then fine, be stubborn **and keep accepting the grand illusion that women are inferior to men, and justify it how you will. But fact of the matter is that women are moving very ahead in life. And there's not much that **your buk buk can do to stop that.

May Allah give you peace.

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Besides that fact that broad generalizations about men and women are exactly that - broad generaliztions - western Muslim women, their status, responsibilities, educational level and the societies in which they live are *drastically *different than the time and place being referenced in scritpure and hadith. So after 5 pages, there still isn't a logical answer.

[funguy]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Male memory can't be all that superior...don't we get lost on the road often? And don't ask for directions either.

[funguy]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Thsi whole argument of having two women witnesses is interesting. I can hardly find two women who can agree on one thing.

[fatehahmad]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Another point of view. While writing about the above verse, an Author wrote:

"There is not the slighest trace of discrimination. The normal rule is that women should be safeguarded against the contingency of having to appear as witnesses in judicial proceedings. Therefore, normally a woman should not be called upon to attest a document recording a transaction. This rule may be relaxed in an emergency. But then another difficulty would arise. In the case of male witnesses their memory of transaction that they attest as witnesses would be refreshed when they met socially and the transaction was recalled for one reason or another. In the case of a document recording a transaction, which is attested by one male and one female witness, the female witness, under the Islamic social system, as will presently be appreciated would not normally have frequent occasion to meet the male witness and talk to him, so that there would be little chance of refreshing the memory, it is wisely provided that where only one male witness is available two female witnesses may be called upon so that, in the very words of the text, one may refresh the memory of the other.

The provision is concerned only with the preservation of evidence, and doesnot deal with the weight to be attached to the testimony of a male or female witness. An illustration may help to clear up any doubt on the matter. Assume that a transaction recorded in a document attested by one male and two female witnesses becomes subject of a dispute which comes up for judicial determination. It is then discovered that one of the two female witnesses has in the mean time died. The male witness and the surviving female witness are examined in court and the judge finds that their respective accounts of the terms of the transaction are not entirely in harmony; but he feels very strongly that taking every relevant factor into consideration the testimony of the female witness is more reliable than that of the male witness. In such a case it would be his plain duty to rely on the testimony of the female witness in preference to that of the male witness. There could be no question of discrimination in favor of or against a woman.

[USResident]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@funguy

Thsi whole argument of having two women witnesses is interesting. I can hardly find two women who can agree on one thing.

Doesn’t this thread demonstrate that.

[USResident]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Another point of view. While writing about the above verse, an Author wrote:

"There is not the slighest trace of discrimination. The normal rule is that women should be safeguarded against the contingency of having to appear as witnesses in judicial proceedings. Therefore, normally a woman should not be called upon to attest a document recording a transaction. This rule may be relaxed in an emergency. But then another difficulty would arise. In the case of male witnesses their memory of transaction that they attest as witnesses would be refreshed when they met socially and the transaction was recalled for one reason or another. In the case of a document recording a transaction, which is attested by one male and one female witness, the female witness, under the Islamic social system, as will presently be appreciated would not normally have frequent occasion to meet the male witness and talk to him, so that there would be little chance of refreshing the memory, it is wisely provided that where only one male witness is available two female witnesses may be called upon so that, in the very words of the text, one may refresh the memory of the other.

The provision is concerned only with the preservation of evidence, and doesnot deal with the weight to be attached to the testimony of a male or female witness. An illustration may help to clear up any doubt on the matter. Assume that a transaction recorded in a document attested by one male and two female witnesses becomes subject of a dispute which comes up for judicial determination. It is then discovered that one of the two female witnesses has in the mean time died. The male witness and the surviving female witness are examined in court and the judge finds that their respective accounts of the terms of the transaction are not entirely in harmony; but he feels very strongly that taking every relevant factor into consideration the testimony of the female witness is more reliable than that of the male witness. In such a case it would be his plain duty to rely on the testimony of the female witness in preference to that of the male witness. There could be no question of discrimination in favor of or against a woman.

Fair explanation. It contains the same essence, given the state of women or commonly prevalent circumstances it is preferable in an Islamic society because it would be easier for two females to frequent each other or talk unchecked about the matter as compared to a man and woman having to discuss it with the same frequency. Nothing about women being emotionally unstable or all those lines of reasoning.

However I still don't see this etched in stone if the circumstances do not warrant it. Like in todays society where contracts are pre-written and available, witnesses have little value. The need for witnesses is emphasized when the contract is being written on the fly and the people present should ensure it is contracted the way it is discussed. In todays societies if you don't like the contract you don't sign the dotted line. Norms have changed, procedures of doing loans have changed.

[kantan]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I think some good points have been raised already but the way to really know if this makes sense is to test it. Check and see if the errors produced using two men as witnesses is equivalent to one man and two women. Also check if errors produced by one man and one woman are equivalent to two male witnesses. If we have that data then we can make a decision of whether this is fair or not.

And now back to conjecture:
I think the Quranic statement for substituting two women for one man is fair. The substitution is there so that if one woman errs the other can correct. Such a situation would arise if one woman was pregnant. I know from personal experience that my wife made more mistakes in her work as a programmer, and at home, in her last trimester because she was tired of carrying the baby all day long. She then continued this trend after delivery due to lack of sleep for at least another 3 months. So overall that's 6 months my wife remained in a weakened state and was apt to make more mistakes. I didn't have these problems because I can't get pregnant and I can't breastfeed. So I wasn't tired and slept better than she did.

Since there's no way to tell when you'll need the witnesses it would be wise to get two women instead of one so you don't have to worry about getting one at a bad time.

Well, I'm happy with my conjecture, if someone else has an answer please say it.

[hareem01]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Kantan......yes, i agree.

[ssingh]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Thsi whole argument of having two women witnesses is interesting. I can hardly find two women who can agree on one thing.

Doesn’t this thread demonstrate that.

[Dushwari]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

true.

But just as a joke, aside from the topic;

All problems of woMEN start with MEN...........

MENstruation MENarche MENses MENopause

even the word woMEN ends with MEN.............!!!!!!!!!:)

[Light_Bearer]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I think some good points have been raised already but the way to really know if this makes sense is to test it. Check and see if the errors produced using two men as witnesses is equivalent to one man and two women. Also check if errors produced by one man and one woman are equivalent to two male witnesses. If we have that data then we can make a decision of whether this is fair or not.

And now back to conjecture: I think the Quranic statement for substituting two women for one man is fair. The substitution is there so that if one woman errs the other can correct. Such a situation would arise if one woman was pregnant. I know from personal experience that my wife made more mistakes in her work as a programmer, and at home, in her last trimester because she was tired of carrying the baby all day long. She then continued this trend after delivery due to lack of sleep for at least another 3 months. So overall that's 6 months my wife remained in a weakened state and was apt to make more mistakes. I didn't have these problems because I can't get pregnant and I can't breastfeed. So I wasn't tired and slept better than she did.

Since there's no way to tell when you'll need the witnesses it would be wise to get two women instead of one so you don't have to worry about getting one at a bad time.

Well, I'm happy with my conjecture, if someone else has an answer please say it.

Well I find that a bit disturbing that all women were assumed to be preganent during their testimony in the court, it's as if saying all women of marriageable age should be pregnant all the time. Is it the only purpose they have?

[kantan]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Well I find that a bit disturbing that all women were assumed to be preganent during their testimony in the court, it's as if saying all women of marriageable age should be pregnant all the time. Is it the only purpose they have?

It is not assumed that all women will be pregnant during testimony. The assumption is that a woman has the possibility of being pregnant. Some women will never get pregnant but you might not have that knowledge at the time you use them as a witness. And it would unreasonable for you to ask them to plan their pregnancy around the time you need their testimony.

Women and men are equal in front of God, they both have the same purpose of worshiping God. Other people might think differently but God, the creator of both, has made it very clear what their purpose is, worship God alone.

[Vedic_Intellect]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

that explanation is total BS lol @ women being pregnant.. i agree with light_bearer how the eff are you assumin pregnancy? what percentage of women out there are pregnant? not a lot! right? then y wud u make a GENERAL RULE for all women just bcoz what 3-4% of them out there might b pregnant/breastfeeding?

this is a clear case of "bounded rationality"... where a person tries to defend sumthing no matter what.. coming up with absurd explanations to defend sumthin just bcoz u want to defend it..

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

While I have the utmost respect for Dr. Naik and his effort, I feel that he is not doing justice with the Quranic verse 2:282 for obvious reasons:

يَايُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءامَنُوا اِذَا تَدَايَنتُمْ بِدَيْنٍ اِلَى اجَلٍ مُسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُبْ بَيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلَا يَاْبَ كَاتِبٌ انْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللَّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلْ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللَّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلَا يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْءا فَاِنْ كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا اوْ ضَعِيفًا اوْ لَا يَسْتَطِيعُ انْ يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُوا شَهِيدَيْنِ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ فَاِنْ لَمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَاتَانِ مِمَّنْ تَرْضَوْنَ مِنْ الشُّهَدَاءِ انْ تَضِلَّ ** اِحْدَهُمَا **فَتُذَكِّرَ اِحْدَهُمَا الْاُخْرَى وَلَا يَاْبَ الشُّهَدَاءُ اِذَا مَا دُعُوا وَلَا تَسْءمُوا انْ تَكْتُبُوهُ صَغِيرًا اوْ كَبِيرًا اِلَى اجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ اقْسَطُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَاقْوَمُ لِلشَّهَدَةِ وَادْنَى الَّا تَرْتَابُوا اِلَّا انْ تَكُونَ تِجَرَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ الَّا تَكْتُبُوهَا وَاشْهِدُوا اِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلَا يُضَارَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلَا شَهِيدٌ وَاِنْ تَفْعَلُوا فَاِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمْ اللَّهُ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if (first) one among them **TUDHILLA, the other/second one can then **TUZAKKIRA* the (first) one among them. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do.*

Please read the translation carefully and also consult the arabic text. The ayah under discussion does not identify women to have inferior memory.

If the verse meant to say "the woman involuntarily ERRs", the word would have been KhAATI'A, and if it meant to say forget, it would have read TANSIA. The woman has not forgotten, but has strayed from the straight path out of fear or pressure.

DHILLA - comes from DhLL, eg, wa ladh dhaaalleen: and not those who stray from the straight path. It does not mean to forget;

TUZAKKIRA - comes from ZIKR, which means to remind... but if the woman has not forgotten (so no need to 'remind'), and is not making an indeliberate mistake (in case of error the other woman would have to correct her, and not remind her). Then what is the reminder for?

The answer is in the word itself. DhLL means to stray from the correct path or lose sight of the goal. In case of a trial, it could be out of fear as far as a woman is concerned. Why you may ask?

Women, no matter of what age, era or culture or race are raised in a male dominant society. Even western women who are thought to be very indepandant do get confused in stressful situations. Its because they are raised in such a way (not that it is in their genetic code) to accept the authority of men and are hence more prone to threats and pressure. In addition to this, ONLY the first lady spoken of is the actual witness. Observe:

فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَاتَانِ مِمَّنْ تَرْضَوْنَ مِنْ الشُّهَدَاءِ انْ تَضِلَّ اِحْدَهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ اِحْدَهُمَا الْاُخْرَى
Then a man | and | two women | among | you accept | from | the witnesses | such that | falters if | one of them | reminds then | one of them | the other

This means that if the female witness can stand the pressure, she alone is enough for the testimony.

This pragmatic statement from the Quran is just as viable today as it was aeons ago! Women are not inferior to men in any sense of the word according to the Quran.

[Munni]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I havent really read all the responses so dunno if anyone mentioned the hadith about the Jewish man and the stone being thrown. It only required the witness of a girl, one girl, for the decision to be taken. I believe its related in Bukhari if I am not mistaken. So I agree its not the case of requiring two in every situation.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I havent really read all the responses so dunno if anyone mentioned the hadith about the Jewish man and the stone being thrown. It only required the witness of a girl, one girl, for the decision to be taken. I believe its related in Bukhari if I am not mistaken. So I agree its not the case of requiring two in every situation.

you do not need to look further if the question is answered in 2:282 itself...