Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
so if your guess say probability of 3 or 4 % ...so is it better to kill by stones(sangsar)...give 80 lashes or deprive the man or woman of his/her two hands from shoulders for the whole of life because you do not want to acept the hikmat of the Creator...
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
that explanation is total BS lol @ women being pregnant.. i agree with light_bearer how the eff are you assumin pregnancy? what percentage of women out there are pregnant? not a lot! right? then y wud u make a GENERAL RULE for all women just bcoz what 3-4% of them out there might b pregnant/breastfeeding?
this is a clear case of "bounded rationality"... where a person tries to defend sumthing no matter what.. coming up with absurd explanations to defend sumthin just bcoz u want to defend it..
The first question is whether or not you agree that a tired or a weakened person is more likely to make mistakes. If you don't then there is no point in arguing this and you either need a different explanation or you can be satisfied with what you've got now.
Second, do you agree that a pregnant woman is more likely to feel tired than a man or woman that is not pregnant. If you don't think that is true either, again no point in arguing.
And finally, a general rule is necessary when you are dealing with the unknown. Your question is like asking why people use a second hard drive to back up another hard drive if there's only 3-4% chance of getting errors in data. And the answer is simple, because you don't know when or where the error will be, that's why you need to back up everything all the time (example: raid for servers).
Same thing here. We have a written document that both parties have agreed on. This should be enough but what happens if either party then changes the document or misinterprets it later? Well we have a witness for that. The witness is human and can make mistakes so we then get two witnesses for redundancy. If a woman is used, she is more likely to make a mistake if she is tired from pregnancy/delivery. And this can be a problem if this happens when she has to testify. So we get another woman for redundancy.
Will you know each time you do a transaction whether the witness you choose will either be close to delivering or will just deliver, around the time you need her testimony? Probably not, because if you could predict the dispute, you would avoid it. And that's why you would generalize the rule, because you don't know when the dispute would occur and thus, when you would need the witness. So why not lower your chance of error by getting two female witnesses.
Since neither you, nor I came with any real and reliable statistics on witnesses and error, we're in the wonderful land of conjecture. All I'm doing is providing reasons for how it could be possible for women to make more errors than men, I don't actually know God's reasoning. That is something you will have to ask God.
Now as for "bounded rationality", have you already decided that the Quran is not the word of God? Because if you have already decided this, then you will reject any explanation I give you regardless of how reasonable it is. This happens to be the third post that I've had to explain that it is necessary to generalize because of the unknown. Light Bearer missed it when I explained it the first time. You missed it again when I explained it to Light Bearer. If you are one that does not believe in the Quran, and you wish to continue not to believe in it; then no matter how many times I explain this, you would not understand. This would be because understanding it would directly conflict with your desire to disbelieve, assuming you do disbelieve in the Quran.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
It is not assumed that all women will be pregnant during testimony. The assumption is that a woman has the possibility of being pregnant. Some women will never get pregnant but you might not have that knowledge at the time you use them as a witness. And it would unreasonable for you to ask them to plan their pregnancy around the time you need their testimony.
Women and men are equal in front of God, they both have the same purpose of worshiping God. Other people might think differently but God, the creator of both, has made it very clear what their purpose is, worship God alone.
Then in the light of your this statement pregnant-women theory holds no water and you are just trying to rationalise
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Then in the light of your this statement pregnant-women theory holds no water and you are just trying to rationalise
Like I said, I've explained this three times already. I think if we stop talking about the Quran you'll understand much more quickly. For instance, why do companies require that they back up their server data every day when the likelihood of them using their backup is less than one percent? Why would they generalize backing up data every day when they're probably going to need it in one day out of a thousand? Months and years go by without them ever using their backups so why do they keep doing it, especially since doing this costs them a lot of money. Why do people use servers that mirror data across two hard drives when the average consumer does not? Obviously there aren't a lot of errors if I can just use one hard drive, so why do they use 2 hard drives to back up the same data? Once you can answer these questions maybe you'll understand but in either case, I'm done. I can't keep explaining the same stuff over and over again and keep getting the same question back.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Like I said, I've explained this three times already. I think if we stop talking about the Quran you'll understand much more quickly. For instance, why do companies require that they back up their server data every day when the likelihood of them using their backup is less than one percent? Why would they generalize backing up data every day when they're probably going to need it in one day out of a thousand? Months and years go by without them ever using their backups so why do they keep doing it, especially since doing this costs them a lot of money. Why do people use servers that mirror data across two hard drives when the average consumer does not? Obviously there aren't a lot of errors if I can just use one hard drive, so why do they use 2 hard drives to back up the same data? Once you can answer these questions maybe you'll understand but in either case, I'm done. I can't keep explaining the same stuff over and over again and keep getting the same question back.
You are missing the whole point here friend, in your example of the back up data, atleast somewhere it is written that this the reason for doing so and so. But the argument is that there is nothing written about the topic at hand. In your hard drive copy example you are not guesstimating the reason why you make the back ups.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
dawa_i_dil, what the eff u talking abt bro? u tryin to scare me into blind belief or what?
kantan, yes.. pregnant women are bound to be more tired.. but so are males who work in any kind of job that requires physical work.. what about backing up that error? dude the point is simple.. tht u shudnt b generalizing based on gender.. there can be credible men and noncredible men, credible women and non credible women... by saying that 2 women = 1 man as witness your discriminating based on sex.. which is wrong !
im not agains the quran, the quran has some beautiful teachings, but i do think that many interpretations are outdated and do not apply to today's society (pls dont give me bullcrap abt quran being the message of allah and hence valid forever and ever and ever.. i dont believe in blind faith) ... im just sittin here rationalizing things outside the box and saying that because there are milliions of possibilities and scenarios .. there should not be a general rule saying that 1 man witness= 2 women witnesses...
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
i officially give up on this thread :)
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
i agree with you brother...many quran teachings are now out-dated because its nly 1400 years of age while Manu ...Puranas...Vedas and Upanishads are and will always be up-to-date as thier age is more than 5000 years or accordig to some...millions of years...!!!!!!
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
^^ I just don't think any scripture or teachings shud b blindly followed.. no matter how old they are, they shud b prescribed only if they are relevant to the kind of world we live in today....
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
great.....your knowledge....kamal hai bhai ..
Shukriyah.. That was a joke...:)
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
There is no such thing in Islam/Quran which says 'mathematically'
that 1 Man witness= two women witness.
BTW: Despite all the knowledge, freedome, noise of women's lib in this day and age............men are still dominating the world's 'best' societies and women are still largely weak, insecure, and dependant on men. Islam has been the first religion which gave much more to a woman than any other society or religion in terms of its dignity, respect, right of inheritance, right of being educated and being responsible in financial matters.
The Prophet (SAW) accepted the role of an 'employee' of a great woman (Khadijah RAA) who was a succesful busineswoman.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
More so in western socieities than Muslim?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
There is an excellent article by Mohammad Fadel called "Two Women, One Man: Knowledge, Power, and Gender in Medieval Sunni Legal Thought." Here are some extracts:
"the Qur'an seems to be saying, at least by way of implication, that the testimony of a woman is less credible than that of a man."
"the celebrated Egyptian modernist and reformer Muhammad 'Abduh...he denied that the requirement of two female witnesses was based on the different natures of men and women; instead, he argued that both men and women have the same capacity for remembering and forgetting, the sole difference being that the different economic roles of men and women in society made each vulnerable to forgetting those things which were not part of his or her daily experience."
"Thus, while a woman was more prone than a man to make a mistake regarding a commercial transaction, she would be more likely to be correct concering a household matter. Muslim modernists have taken 'Abduh's lead in interpreting this verse as being the result of a temporal division of labor between the sexes. According to them, the apparent rule established by this verse was neither universally applicable across time nor generally applicable to all cases tried by a court."
"Had there been a natural inherent quality in women rendering their statements more unreliable than those of mean, the law should have consistently discriminated against the statements of women, whether in the normative or in the political domain."
"...a woman's opinion (fatwa) in law was just as valid and morally binding as the legal opinion of a man. Thus, a woman could legitimately be a mufti, a legal expert whose task it is to communicate legal rules to non-specialists, including at times judges and other holders of political power."
"The most prominent [example] of these women was 'A'isha bint Abi Bakr...she was not only an important transmitter of religious doctrine, she was also recognized as an independant legal authority...to issue legal opinions on controversial legal matters."
"Evidence of female participation in this realm can be found in the many diplomas (ijazas) containing women's names and in the colophons of manuscripts that mention women as teachers and students...many ...] were given academic titles, such as *al-musnida, *which can be translated roughly as 'the authority'."
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
There is an excellent article by Mohammad Fadel called "Two Women, One Man: Knowledge, Power, and Gender in Medieval Sunni Legal Thought."
Salam Sis Abeera,
While your post does seem to make sense, why is it that two women would not make the same mistake?
I would like your comment on my understanding...
While I have the utmost respect for Dr. Naik and his effort, I feel that he is not doing justice with the Quranic verse 2:282 for obvious reasons:
يَايُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءامَنُوا اِذَا تَدَايَنتُمْ بِدَيْنٍ اِلَى اجَلٍ مُسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُبْ بَيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلَا يَاْبَ كَاتِبٌ انْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللَّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلْ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللَّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلَا يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْءا فَاِنْ كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا اوْ ضَعِيفًا اوْ لَا يَسْتَطِيعُ انْ يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُوا شَهِيدَيْنِ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ فَاِنْ لَمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَاتَانِ مِمَّنْ تَرْضَوْنَ مِنْ الشُّهَدَاءِ انْ تَضِلَّ ** اِحْدَهُمَا **فَتُذَكِّرَ اِحْدَهُمَا الْاُخْرَى وَلَا يَاْبَ الشُّهَدَاءُ اِذَا مَا دُعُوا وَلَا تَسْءمُوا انْ تَكْتُبُوهُ صَغِيرًا اوْ كَبِيرًا اِلَى اجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ اقْسَطُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَاقْوَمُ لِلشَّهَدَةِ وَادْنَى الَّا تَرْتَابُوا اِلَّا انْ تَكُونَ تِجَرَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ الَّا تَكْتُبُوهَا وَاشْهِدُوا اِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلَا يُضَارَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلَا شَهِيدٌ وَاِنْ تَفْعَلُوا فَاِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمْ اللَّهُ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if (first) one among them **TUDHILLA, the other/second one can then **TUZAKKIRA* the (first) one among them. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do.*
Please read the translation carefully and also consult the arabic text. The ayah under discussion does not identify women to have inferior memory.
If the verse meant to say "the woman involuntarily ERRs", the word would have been KhAATI'A, and if it meant to say forget, it would have read TANSIA. The woman has not forgotten, but has strayed from the straight path out of fear or pressure.
DHILLA - comes from DhLL, eg, wa ladh dhaaalleen: and not those who stray from the straight path. It does not mean to forget;
TUZAKKIRA - comes from ZIKR, which means to remind... but if the woman has not forgotten (so no need to 'remind'), and is not making an indeliberate mistake (in case of error the other woman would have to correct her, and not remind her). Then what is the reminder for?
The answer is in the word itself. DhLL means to stray from the correct path or lose sight of the goal. In case of a trial, it could be out of fear as far as a woman is concerned. Why you may ask?
Women, no matter of what age, era or culture or race are raised in a male dominant society. Even western women who are thought to be very indepandant do get confused in stressful situations. Its because they are raised in such a way (not that it is in their genetic code) to accept the authority of men and are hence more prone to threats and pressure. In addition to this, ONLY the first lady spoken of is the actual witness. Observe:
فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَاتَانِ مِمَّنْ تَرْضَوْنَ مِنْ الشُّهَدَاءِ انْ تَضِلَّ اِحْدَهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ اِحْدَهُمَا الْاُخْرَى Then a man | and | two women | among | you accept | from | the witnesses | such that | falters if | one of them | reminds then | one of them | the other
This means that if the female witness can stand the pressure, she alone is enough for the testimony.
This pragmatic statement from the Quran is just as viable today as it was aeons ago! Women are not inferior to men in any sense of the word according to the Quran.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
hypnotix,
SubhanAllah- I most certainly agree with your linguistic break down of the ayah. I think this needs to be emphasized to anyone interested in this discussion.
It is also interesting that form II of the verb dh-k-r also means: 'to make masculine'...
Also essentially important is the 'IF'. This specific 'if' really does mean 'IF' and not 'idhaa' which would mean 'when'. Hence, as you said, one female witness CAN SUFFICE for testimony.
It is the condition of the 'if' which is left for us to establish. hmm.. as for "In case of a trial, it could be out of fear as far as a woman is concerned" : I agree to an extent, but, whether genetic or acquired, it would be incomplete to dub 'confusion under pressure' as the only reason.
Perhaps we can understand more by looking at the disctinction between riwaya *and *shahada. *As C13th Egyptian jurist al-Qarafi argued, in cases of riwaya, the narrator is himself affected by what he reports. For example, it affects his reputation. So a *rawi, or narrator, would have little interest in lying. However, a witness suffers no direct harm himself if he makes a mistake.
I do not entirely agree with this in justifying gender inequality in testimony. I think the reasons will be obvious to you, brother. In fact, I should think about this some more before commenting further.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
However, a witness suffers no direct harm himself if he makes a mistake.
So it is viable to say that this verse may not be talking of involuntary mistake as such.
I do not entirely agree with this in justifying gender inequality in testimony. I think the reasons will be obvious to you, brother. In fact, I should think about this some more before commenting further.
It is somewhat... since even men can be threatened and coersed, but usually the tendency of being scared of threats (or faltering as a result) can be an acquired trait. Statistically, boys do usually spend further apart from parents/mother whereas girls tend to be much closer. This kind of lifestyle may/might be a contributing factor.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
hypnotix,
SubhanAllah- I most certainly agree with your linguistic break down of the ayah. I think this needs to be emphasized to anyone interested in this discussion.
It is also interesting that form II of the verb dh-k-r also means: 'to make masculine'...
Also essentially important is the 'IF'. This specific 'if' really does mean 'IF' and not 'idhaa' which would mean 'when'. Hence, as you said, one female witness CAN SUFFICE for testimony.
Peace and Blessings to you
I'm afraid I don't agree with it, but hey who am I right? I think you need to check up the masculine part in detail.
The 'IF' rationality is meaningless too. 'Dhilla' definitely means error, or 'going astray' ... these terms are transmutable. So by ignoring the blatancy of this term and concentrating on the tuzzakira is not a fair thing to do. Also dikr means to 'bring forth' i.e. to recollect a memory. By attempting to pass the definition of dikr as the definition of tuzzakira is more game play. Roots are shared, but meanings are not synonymous in the Arabic forms. Tuzzakira would therefore have a linked but different meaning from the word dikr.
If a woman causes an error she has the advantage of being corrected by another. This advantage does not exist with the male. If a woman chooses to go solo, then how would you implement the 'if'?
For your scenario to work ... a woman is in the state of testimony by herself. She can't 'remember' something quite right, so then what will happen? Okay ... you call the other to help her out? But you see regardless of whether you do it your way or not ... you will still require two women at the time of the contract. How else would you bring the 'other' woman?
Please ask brother Hypnotix-2000 to provide the maada (root) of the term ittaqoo from his lexicon ... ittaqoo is hamza-ta(mushadda)-qaf-waw. Then to explain how he has arrived at the solution. It is a test among many for those who like to play gynastics with the Arabic language.
I apologise about the bluntness of my words ... a necessary end to a focussed discussion ... JazakAllahKhair.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
You certainly do not need to apologize. We are all here to find the truth, not to boost our egos by forcing that we are right :) Alhamdulillah
So, bro/sis psyah, jazakAllah for your feedback on our thoughts- could you share your own interpretation? :) you seem to know a lot more than us.
jazakAllah khair in advance
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
ya hypnotix, that was a Yusuf Ali translation, right?
(psyah, i believe the varying ways of translating ittaqoo can be seen in the translations of yusuf ali and pickthall, also check out the actual 3-radical root in Hans Wehr, subhanAllah :))
as for the subject at hand
I agree that both female witnesses should be present, as this is the clear instruction. I believe that part of what we are trying to establish is the nature of the 'err' or 'going astray', as this is something that has been, in this ayah, explicitly related to women, and not to the man. Most (if not all) translations only put in brackets: 'if one errs [out of forgetfullness]'.
So far, it is evident that Muhammad 'Abduh's points still do make sense. If this is the case, then one must ask, how can this law be universally applicable and if not, how can this be ascertained?
p.s. Until all parties are satisfied, this discussion should not end, alhamdulillah :)
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Yousuf Ali, :) yeah go figure eh sis Abeera :D should have cited it... oops
bro/sis psyah this is certainly a good question, and although you are asking me to translate (h)ittaqu, I'd like to translate the (h) only:
وُصِلَ يُوْصَلُ وَصْلًا فَهُوَ مَوصُوْلٌ