Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Exactly. Who determines this prestigous designation of 'scholar'? There are all kinds of people who can memorize the Quran and cross reference it with 1000 hadith. Does that make them right? Or righteous? al (kafir-killer) Zawahri claims to be a scholar and has many followers. Is his designation of 'scholar' worthy of respect and following? Anyone can claim to be a scholar.
Semi, being a scholar is like earning a degree. Don't know what equivalent level of education I would call it but its like that. You get a BS, you got knowledge, you get a MS even better, at PhD your at a height. How you use that knowledge is what makes you worthy of respect or earns you stripes.
Having knowledge means nothing like PCG said, your a walking encyclopedia. You need to use it.
Now you may find someone with a BS but more successful or brilliant than a person with a PhD. The more knowledge you acquire gives your outlook on something more broard it doesn't mean you are using it properly.
Now people getting a BS from different parts of the world are not same by all standards, same goes with scholars.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Men are also diagnosed more for certain mental disorders, like Alzheimer's. Did you know that? Does that mean a woman's memory is better than a man's?
It has little to do with the sex, and more to do with possibilities of unexplored genes that are located on either the X or Y chromosome that predispose women or men to a certain disorder. You can't rule out such possibilities.
Yes, women's memory is generally better for emotional things but we're not talking about emotional memories. We are talking about ability to recollect normal memories when in an emotional situation. Whatever we say, generally, it is understood that man and woman think differently. And Allah knows His creation better than we can know ourselves.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Semi, being a scholar is like earning a degree. Don't know what equivalent level of education I would call it but its like that. You get a BS, you got knowledge, you get a MS even better, at PhD your at a height. How you use that knowledge is what makes you worthy of respect or earns you stripes.
Having knowledge means nothing like PCG said, your a walking encyclopedia. You need to use it.
That's my point. You could study to the level of Phd Super Plus and still preach violence and hatred. Thereore, the designation of scholar in and of itself is meaningless.
Earning a degree in religion is not like other fields of study with finite rights and wrongs. There is much more interpretation when studying religion. Their is also history, culture, tradition, bias and preconceived notions invloved in any scholar's interpretation.
I'm just saying that because someone claims to be a scholar, it doesn't mean one should follow them blindly. And just because someone hasn't gone through traditional education in studying religion doesn't make him wrong.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
That's my point. You could study to the level of Phd Super Plus and still preach violence and hatred. Thereore, the designation of scholar in and of itself is meaningless.
No, your definition of scholar is ignorant of the Islamic definition of scholar.
If you knew this, you would not make that statement.
.
I'm just saying that because someone claims to be a scholar, it doesn't mean one should follow them blindly. And just because someone hasn't gone through traditional education in studying religion doesn't make him wrong.
The claim of the scholar i.e. the ijaza (permission) given to him by other scholars who have themselves been given ijaza is the criteria for scholarly authenticity. And though someone else may not be wrong, it would not be true to our motives to follow that which is not authenticated. To be so, he would have to submit his conclusions to the network of scholars for a judgement to be arrived at.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
here is a link to an 18 page booklet on the subject of Women in Islam written by the late Sir Muhammad Zafrulla Khan who served as the president of UN general assembly and as a judge of the international court of justice. The verse which is the subject of this thread is discussed on page 15.
It will hopefully answer the questions of those people who feel islam discriminates against women in a number of different areas and also help educate those who want to learn about the status of women in islam.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
It seems on this occasion you’re in agreement with what I’ve said.
In that Allah does not provide the verse to discriminate women or say they are in any way inferior. Rather it is for helping and protecting us which is what I’ve been saying from the beginning.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Yes, women's memory is generally better for emotional things but we're not talking about emotional memories. We are talking about ability to recollect normal memories when in an emotional situation. Whatever we say, generally, it is understood that man and woman think differently. And Allah knows His creation better than we can know ourselves.
The advice of Allah in the Quran should be kept.
Then we should also keep slaves, because the Quran speaks of slavery as well. So when are you going to the human flesh market to pick up a little girl?
Allah knows his Creation, better than you or I. But I know Alzheimer's biology and biology of memory better than you. Alzheimer's type memory loss is not emotional memory loss. Its general cognitive memory loss. At advanced stages, you even lose memory of where you are, what country you're in, anything about the country, and even who your kids are.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
of course i m in agreement that Allah doesn't discriminate against women. A woman is as much a creation of Allah as a man is. I believe islam is the perfect religion and Qura'an is the word of Allah and as such it is in agreement with human nature. Any apparent conflict arises from the wrong understanding of some verses.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Then we should also keep slaves, because the Quran speaks of slavery as well. So when are you going to the human flesh market to pick up a little girl?
So what about slavery does the Quran say?
Allah knows his Creation, better than you or I.** But I know** Alzheimer's biology and biology of memory better than you. Alzheimer's type memory loss is not emotional memory loss. Its general cognitive memory loss. At advanced stages, you even lose memory of where you are, what country you're in, anything about the country, and even who your kids are.
Please don't assume that you know me or know what I know. I've studied Psychology for three years and in near future I'll be studying it again inshaAllah.
What do you know about AD?........its a disease. A mental disease. This is off topic anyway.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Oh you might want to rethink that one. The maulvi that you support in the NWFP is against girls getting schooled.
The AD example is a VERY PRIME example that you can't just make the types of associations you are making between the science you've looked up and your assumptions. There is simply NO biological evidence to suggest that a woman is BIOLOGICALLY unable to make decisions about financial matters, or that her memory for such things would be affected.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
That's my point. You could study to the level of Phd Super Plus and still preach violence and hatred. Thereore, the designation of scholar in and of itself is meaningless.
Earning a degree in religion is not like other fields of study with finite rights and wrongs. There is much more interpretation when studying religion. Their is also history, culture, tradition, bias and preconceived notions invloved in any scholar's interpretation.
I'm just saying that because someone claims to be a scholar, it doesn't mean one should follow them blindly. And just because someone hasn't gone through traditional education in studying religion doesn't make him wrong.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
No, your definition of scholar is ignorant of the Islamic definition of scholar.
If you knew this, you would not make that statement.
.
The claim of the scholar i.e. the ijaza (permission) given to him by other scholars who have themselves been given ijaza is the criteria for scholarly authenticity. And though someone else may not be wrong, it would not be true to our motives to follow that which is not authenticated. To be so, he would have to submit his conclusions to the network of scholars for a judgement to be arrived at.
Hareem the adab o adaab wali society does not exist anymore. These were protocols of the past. The sad but true part is that our majority of scholars are ages behind understanding the current world they live in. The judgements they pass are as if they were living 1400 hundred years ago.
There are definitely exceptions. Most of the scholars who have grown up in all muslim societies or countries i.e. Pakistan, India, Saudi, Mid-east, Iran, Iraq etc have a very localized way of approaching matters, which affect muslims globally.
Things need to change a lot for muslims. Can anyone here tell me what is the test for a scholar. How do you produce a scholar and what is a scholars job?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Men are also diagnosed more for certain mental disorders, like Alzheimer's. Did you know that? Does that mean a woman's memory is better than a man's?
It has little to do with the sex, and more to do with possibilities of unexplored genes that are located on either the X or Y chromosome that predispose women or men to a certain disorder. You can't rule out such possibilities.
In islam, alzheimer's patient is not allowed to be a witness..male or female. So your argument is flawed.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Where did I say that the Alzheimer's patient is to be a witness? We're talking about women being witnesses. Unless you're equating Alzheimer's patients with women in your head.
The reason why I speak of the Alzheimer's patient is to say that a statistic like more AD patients being male, can't be used to justify a statement like "men have bad memory". Likewise, you can't just take some study about women and emotions and then claim that they don't have the cognitive ability to testify effectively.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
After millions of years of world's existence and............. thousands of years of 'civilization' and............................ hundreds of years of 'modern era' after so called 1400 years of.............. 'para tracheal' ( a favorite word of Seminole) life situation .............
this world and its entire population...........
including many of the so called developed nations and highest level of societies at the present time................
could not make majority of women to do same or similar role in this world including
1- A General of the army
2- A President of the country
3-Chief Justices of a country
4-Bread winner of a family
5-Financially responsible person in an institution
6-Member of the Parliament or senate
etc etc........
Then, it must be true that women are different than men in many many aspects and their capabilities are and responsibilities are NOT INFERIOR but DIFFERENT.
They ARE able to do anything a man can and even more if this pleases anyone who blindly thinks to be a proponent of 'women's Lib'....... but when it comes to making rules and laws Allah in Quran referred to the emotional weakness of the woman and SUGGESTED that another woman adds to the evidence.
Now, what if there was no other woman available to witness? Anyone thought of this so far? I see no one saying that here. Instead pulling leg of each other seems to be the 'norm' in this post.
My take on this is that it is only a suggestion and not a strict rule that two women SHOULD give a witness. If one woman is available and she is the ONLY witness QUALIFIED to be a witness in the eyes of a judge then it should be allowed.
(Please remember that there are many other requirements in Islam to be a credible witness which is not required in 'modern' laws and that is another discussion in itself)
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Where did I say that the Alzheimer's patient is to be a witness? We're talking about women being witnesses. Unless you're equating Alzheimer's patients with women in your head.
The reason why I speak of the Alzheimer's patient is to say that a statistic like more AD patients being male, can't be used to justify a statement like "men have bad memory". Likewise, you can't just take some study about women and emotions and then claim that they don't have the cognitive ability to testify effectively.
If you did not, then why mention that more men are being diagnosed with Alzheimer than women?
Are you trying to concede from what you tried to show that men are inferior to women so they are not to be considered Superior in terms of their memory and being a witness?????
I responded that Islam does not allow mentally sick people to be the witness..Period. The sensible rule by a sensible religion.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
No, I'm saying that you can't use some epidemiological differences to justify that one sex is more inferior than the other. My point is precisely to say that men ARE NOT more stupid memory-wise, just because they are more prone to Alzheimer's. Just like women ARE NOT more stupid memory-wise, because they're prone to show more emotion than men.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
So what about if the male witness is not qualified to give a testimony in a financial case? Like, can a male student studying sociology be allowed to testify alone on a stock broker scandal? Or do we need two guys?