Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

[psyah]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

ya hypnotix, that was a Yusuf Ali translation, right?

(psyah, i believe the varying ways of translating ittaqoo can be seen in the translations of yusuf ali and pickthall, also check out the actual 3-radical root in Hans Wehr, subhanAllah :))

as for the subject at hand

I agree that both female witnesses should be present, as this is the clear instruction. I believe that part of what we are trying to establish is the nature of the 'err' or 'going astray', as this is something that has been, in this ayah, explicitly related to women, and not to the man. Most (if not all) translations only put in brackets: 'if one errs [out of forgetfullness]'.

So far, it is evident that Muhammad 'Abduh's points still do make sense. If this is the case, then one must ask, how can this law be universally applicable and if not, how can this be ascertained?

p.s. Until all parties are satisfied, this discussion should not end, alhamdulillah :)

Peace Sister

I am your brother ... not sister. All praise is to Allah (SWT) ... May He reward you for your consideration.

Muhammad 'Abduh? I had to check that one up. He is called a 'modernist' ... that is a red flag. Before I continue on a character profile rant ... I would like to emphasise that his view of the verse is not dissimilar to that what the non-Muslim 'modernists' find. They see the hinderance. When I see naught. How can the Kalaam of Allah (SWT) have a hinderance? I'm not talking apologetics either. The syndrome of appointing our misguided judgements about the Qur'an and explaining them away as 'time or society limited' without evidence that can be extruded from the scripture itself is ... just that ... apologetics. Why can we not ask Allah (SWT) to bestow upon us the Hikmah, instead of trying to make excuses for Allah (SWT). He needs no excuses.

The roles of male and female are ordained by God. The focus is to be fair to both genders. Islam doesn't promote equality in role. Only when we understand this we can continue. The idea again is not to transpose this framework onto us living in these unIslamic environments living by unIslamic ideals. Ofcourse the Qur'an will be out of sync ... or rather should I say we are out of sync with the Qur'an.

There is no need to be apologetic ... consider a knight in shining amour. I could look upon him and frown to see him hindered with restricted movement, but on the other hand he is well protected. He goes out to battle and the restriction causes his kills to be low in number, but he survives!

[deedawar]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Seminole

More so in western socieities than Muslim?

Absolutely wrong question. Glad you asked this question and pointed out the obvious difference in the mentality of the people who argue for so called “women’s liberation”.

I am referring to the ignorance of people like you to compare Islam as a religion with western society. No comparison. Islam will stil win there. Just remember, many of the so called freedom of women in western societies are brought by Islamic revolution in this world including voicing the opinion as a person.

Umer RAA made it mandatory for men to come home from overseas on regular basis to fulfill the need of their wives upon questioning a woman about her need. Do we find it now? Instead we find good looking young females entertaining soldiers abroad while women stay home!!!

For centuries… even up to the last century, in so called free societies belong to western areas, women had no right to vote or voice their opinion while Islamic societies produced women rulers and leaders who ruled a vast area of land in this world.

The topic is about being a witness and simplistic view of 1 man=2 women is nowhere to be found in Islam no matter how much people like you try to spread. Whatever is said before was a suggestion and advice ad not a rule or law.

Islam has never asked a woman to be the bread winner while man stays at home drinking beer and watching TV at home. Thats not equality in Islamic view.

Now,… comparing Islam to other religions which people like you deliberately avoid…Islamic is still a winner when it deals with women’s rights and duties and men’s rights and duties as equal partner and responsible as far as their physical, mental and emotional abilities are considered.

Wanna bet my friend?

[system]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

^ i fully agree with you...regarding what you have said about the umar(ra) ...yes ...he was a genius ...not produced by the whole human history ...a single man parallel to him ...after prophets .....thats what i strongly believe in....

and very good and knowledgeable debate by abeera and hypnotix...good guys and gals..keep on...thankyou...

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I am referring to the ignorance of people like you to compare Islam as a religion with western society. No comparison. Islam will stil win there.

I'm not the one who claims "Islam is a complete way of life. I don't think a religion should be a culture, way of life and form of government.

[quote]
Just remember, many of the so called freedom of women in western societies are brought by Islamic revolution in this world including voicing the opinion as a person.

Umer RAA made it mandatory for men to come home from overseas on regular basis to fulfill the need of their wives upon questioning a woman about her need. Do we find it now? Instead we find good looking young females entertaining soldiers abroad while women stay home!!!!!!!

For centuries......... even up to the last century, in so called free societies belong to western areas, women had no right to vote or voice their opinion while Islamic societies produced women rulers and leaders who ruled a vast area of land in this world.

The topic is about being a witness and simplistic view of 1 man=2 women is nowhere to be found in Islam no matter how much people like you try to spread. Whatever is said before was a suggestion and advice ad not a rule or law.

Islam has never asked a woman to be the bread winner while man stays at home drinking beer and watching TV at home. Thats not equality in Islamic view.

Now,......... comparing Islam to other religions which people like you deliberately avoid...Islamic is still a winner when it deals with women's rights and duties and men's rights and duties as equal partner and responsible as far as their physical, mental and emotional abilities are considered.

Wanna bet my friend?
[/quote]
I'm not going to debate or bet on whether Islam is the winner when it deals with women's rights Suffice to say that your reasoning for declaring such is either irrelevant or dated. It doesn't matter who used to or who did it first. Adam was the first prophet, does that make him the winner when it deals with prophets?

I never thought this 'witness rule' meant 1 man=2 women. But I do think it is also dated.

[Vedic_Intellect]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

How does it matter if "true" Islam gives greater rights to women (as you say) if muslim women today are one of the most supressed ones? Please spread this true Islam to everyone in the muslim world so that they stop treating women like commodities..

I've lost all energy to rationalize with these extremist mulla-lovers we got here on GP...

[deedawar]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Seminole

I'm not the one who claims "Islam is a complete way of life. I don't think a religion should be a culture, way of life and form of government. I'm not going to debate or bet on whether Islam is the winner when it deals with women's rights Suffice to say that your reasoning for declaring such is either irrelevant or dated. It doesn't matter who used to or who did it first. Adam was the first prophet, does that make him the winner when it deals with prophets?

I never thought this 'witness rule' meant 1 man=2 women. But I do think it is also dated.

When it is said islam is complete way of life it is true. Not in literal sense that one has to completely mimic the ways life centuries ago. Ride the horses and abandon motor vehicles. (Amish people do that however)

It is the principle and rules based on fairness, personal life decisions on day to day matter such as being honest, humble, strong in basic beliefs etc etc which one has to adopt. That is islam as complete way of life.

Well if you do not want to debate which is first or last, then at least agree on islam as a good religion no matter what any illiterate muslim try to convey by his or her actions.

[deedawar]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Vedic_Intellect

How does it matter if "true" Islam gives greater rights to women (as you say) if muslim women today are one of the most supressed ones? Please spread this true Islam to everyone in the muslim world so that they stop treating women like commodities..

I've lost all energy to rationalize with these extremist mulla-lovers we got here on GP...

Superficial thoughts. I stated and requested earlier to not try to mix cultures with religion. For example, its not the fault of Islam as religion if KSA does not allow muslim or any woman to drive a vehicle.

[psyah]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Seminole

I'm not the one who claims "Islam is a complete way of life. I don't think a religion should be a culture, way of life and form of government.

Peace Seminole

That's what distinguishes the one who follows the Law of God as opposed to the law of man.

We follow what God wants us to follow ... you have one opinion as a human being. So what you think is not important when you see the Law of God prevails.

I don't think gravity should exist ... or I don't think the Earth should spin, but it doesn't matter one iota what I thinks.

Religion and culture are indivisible ... cultures are born out of religious practices.

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Peace Seminole

That's what distinguishes the one who follows the Law of God as opposed to the law of man.

I agree. But that is a personal relationship with God, not a government sponsored interpretation of God.

[quote]
We follow what God wants us to follow ... you have one opinion as a human being. So what you think is not important when you see the Law of God prevails.
[/quote]
And I follow what I think God wants me to follow as well. As an individual.

[quote]
Religion and culture are indivisible ... cultures are born out of religious practices.
[/quote]
Or perhaps more accurately, religions are born out of cultural practices.

[deedawar]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I......................................................

Or perhaps more accurately, religions are born out of cultural practices.

Not really when it comes to Islam.

Islam condemned and prohibited burial of female newborn alive in Arab culture.

Islam condemned division of people based on color, race, ethnic origin, sex etc. etc. (the last surmon by the prophet SAW)

Islam condemned hundred of years of cultural/religious practices of looking down on women while other religions degraded women (sometimes by punishment and rape ) in the name of majic/witchcraft or the only gender possesed by evil forces.

Islam condemened and prohibited the practice of widowed women not to
re-mary or even some extreme cases to die with the husband no matter how many wives they were.

Islam did not condone wrongful and evil cultural practices. Bilal RAA was a former slave, 'black' and had accent in arabic but was given a high level among the people who gained respect in Islam.

Need more proof sir?

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@deedawar

Not really when it comes to Islam.

Islam condemned and prohibited burial of female newborn alive in Arab culture.

Islam condemned division of people based on color, race, ethnic origin, sex etc. etc. (the last surmon by the prophet SAW)

Islam condemned hundred of years of cultural/religious practices of looking down on women while other religions degraded women (sometimes by punishment and rape ) in the name of majic/witchcraft or the only gender possesed by evil forces.

Islam condemened and prohibited the practice of widowed women not to re-mary or even some extreme cases to die with the husband no matter how many wives they were.

Islam did not condone wrongful and evil cultural practices. Bilal RAA was a former slave, 'black' and had accent in arabic but was given a high level among the people who gained respect in Islam.

Need more proof sir?

No, this is obviously a comprehensive list of cultural practices by Muslims that is irrefutable proof there is no link between Arab culture and Islam.

[Dushwari]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

two together is better than one, that is why.

it may not be at all about equivalence.
it could but be simple math and substantiating the fact that women as witnesses are mightier as long as their verdict is pure of contamination.

it will be nice to get a good tafsir on this issue. but clearly it is not a matter of devaluing any particular gender - male or female.

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Dushwari

two together is better than one, that is why.

it may not be at all about equivalence. it could but be simple math.

But math is a science and not gender-based.

1+1=2 for both men and women.

[psyah]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I agree. But that is a personal relationship with God, not a government sponsored interpretation of God.

And I follow what I think God wants me to follow as well. As an individual.

Or perhaps more accurately, religions are born out of cultural practices.

Peace Seminole

You see ... you have it there again ... you follow what you think God wants you to follow. But I don't ... Muslims do what God tells them ... at least that is what we should do.

The difference in your stance and mine is the word 'think' I don't have to ponder over it or internalise or conjure up or imagine an alleged command by God, for me it is WRITTEN in text, completely substantiated and wholly objective. What you think comes from a subjective process unless you can ratify that it doesn't.

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@psyah

Peace Seminole

You see ... you have it there again ... you follow what you think God wants you to follow. But I don't ... Muslims do what God tells them ... at least that is what we should do.

Just as you follow what you *think *God wants you to follow. Just because you have books, culture, history, sayings and billions of others that follow your version to the letter, doesn't make it objective. Your beliefs are as subjective as mine.

You believe God has WRITTEN in text, completely substantiated and wholly objective (as well I imagine all the other cultural and hadith that go with the way Islam is practiced).

But some don't need to follow the fundamentalist version of an organized religion to believe they are following God's wishes.

[psyah]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

@Dushwari

two together is better than one, that is why.

it may not be at all about equivalence. it could but be simple math and substantiating the fact that women as witnesses are mightier as long as their verdict is pure of contamination.

it will be nice to get a good tafsir on this issue. but clearly it is not a matter of devaluing any particular gender - male or female.

Peace Dushwari

I think we need to stop reading into scripture that what is not there. When God states one man or two women why do we draw imaginery lines attempting to equate the two. There is no equation there.

Women are obviously seen as different to men by the Creator, so why are we trying to make up things that do not exist?

Early on in this thread it was suggested that the burden of remembering correctly is reduced to have another woman present to compliment her if it comes to a point that a case is required. Have you no thoughts on this? Even scientific evidence is present to suggest that women find it harder to recollect memories when in the state of tension. It is also a fact that women remember tense memories better. I think this was not fully explained earlier. So here is an explanation.

Scenario 1
Date A - This is when the contract is drawn
Date B - This is when the case is called

Scenario 2
Date B - This is when the case is called
Date C - This is a time after the case is over

In scenario 1 the situation is normally mild at the time of drafting the contract - Date A, but Date B = Tense situation because it is a matter of recollecting memories under oath.

In scenario 2 the tense situation is still Date B, the memory on hindsight of this event will on the other hand be very strong at Date C, because that is the way women process memories. Strong emotional memories are remembered well, and generally memories are recalled without a problem, unless in an emotional situation.

Test yourself with this also ... Think of all the memories you have, now think of the clarity you have of the emotional ones over those that not so emotional. Us men we tend to remember things the same way. Simple creatures us men ...

[psyah]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Just as you follow what you *think *God wants you to follow. Just because you have books, culture, history, sayings and billions of others that follow your version to the letter, doesn't make it objective. Your beliefs are as subjective as mine.

You believe God has WRITTEN in text, completely substantiated and wholly objective (as well I imagine all the other cultural and hadith that go with the way Islam is practiced).

But some don't need to follow the fundamentalist version of an organized religion to believe they are following God's wishes.

Peace Seminole

The objectivity is a claim I made simply refuting it is not enough. I did not say that God wrote it in text. Man has written it in text, but it objective and objectivity comes from testable proof. There are a number of tools people have to test things for their objectivity and the Qur'an stands up to these.

I only mentioned this because you brought up the math aspects, but it seems I made a mistake about your understanding in such matters. If you wrote what you have above in a philosophy exam you would be marked wrong. Bring me to test inshaAllah I shall oblige if you are ready for it. Let's test our belief systems?

[abeeramahmood]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I feel like this is all drifting. But do feel free to continue. I'm just going to keep posting isAllah.

So if anyone is still interested, back to understanding the nature of the 'Dhull'.
Two more reasons why I am skeptical that it really means 'forgetfulness':

a) the references to 'Dhull' in the Qur'an are often quite strong and are translated as 'those who are on the wrong path/have strayed to the wrong path' etc. This is serious. One may argue that one would stray to the wrong path out of 'forgetfulness'. But again, this is not necessarily always the case and forgetfulness and straying from the right path are two different things. So, the translation of 'tuDhill' as 'to err [out of forgetfulness]'... *seems *to be a bit...

b) the research conducted by psychologists on memory and forgetting highlight something called 'reconstructive memory'. In this case, it is shown (specifically by Bartlett (Richard D Gross, 'Psychology', p352, Hodder&Stoughton) that when someone forgets a scenario, particularly when they must recount that scenario for a serious purpose, it is not recommended for them to 'discuss' it with somebody else, least not one who has a version of events him/her self, as this will cause the forgetter to 'fill the gaps' and may reconstruct the event as something that it was not.

As I'm having difficulty visualising this scenario and how it would all work, I am going to ask my lecturers inshaAllah. They are better qualified to discuss this.

[abeeramahmood]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Scenario 1 Date A - This is when the contract is drawn Date B - This is when the case is called

Scenario 2 Date B - This is when the case is called Date C - This is a time after the case is over

...

JazakAllah bro for this.

Just to clarify for all, our intention should not be to judge whether this clause is 'appropriate' or 'appliccable' for us or not. It is a clear injunction in The Holy Qur'an. Unless it was mansookh and the nasikh has not been made clear to us, our effort, if we are interested in this subject, should simply be to understand 'why' it is what it is.

[Seminole]

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Peace Seminole

The objectivity is a claim I made simply refuting it is not enough. I did not say that God wrote it in text. Man has written it in text, but it objective and objectivity comes from testable proof. There are a number of tools people have to test things for their objectivity and the Qur'an stands up to these.

I only mentioned this because you brought up the math aspects, but it seems I made a mistake about your understanding in such matters. If you wrote what you have above in a philosophy exam you would be marked wrong. Bring me to test inshaAllah I shall oblige if you are ready for it. Let's test our belief systems?

I am not going to test your belief system or pretend you can 'grade' my belief system. You seem pretty well grounded in yours as I am in mine. Suffice to say religion is a belief. Subjective. Philosophical in nature. It is not a science like mathematics. If you were to say otherwise in a science exam, you would be marked wrong. Just as the generalizations you make about men and women would be marked wrong in a behavorial psychology exam.

I'm not saying your beliefs are 'wrong', unless you were to say it is the ONLY way. I believe there are many paths to God. Some need billions of others who follow their belief system in order to feel as if they are following the correct path. I don't.