Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

[diwana]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@Niksik

OK sumvun splain me pleej i simple words that a 8 year old can understand, a description of evolution and a description of what the generally acceptable Islamic perception is.

@el_topo

Niksik, I don’t seem to be very good at explaining stuff, but I’ll give it a shot.
The gradual change of an organism over a long time. Basically, the theory goes: plants and animals have descended from simple ancestors ; the changes from one generation to the next would have been very small, but over millions of years they have **(could have) **added upto some big changes.

The Greeks proposed this more than 2500 years ago, and then in the 19th century Charles Darwin, and a chap called Wallace, provided an explanation of how the changes could have taken place. The individuals of a species always vary; some can run faster. Some have better camouflage, and some are better at finding food than others.
The individuals with the most useful features survive the best and have the most offspring, and because offspring tends to resemble their parents, some of the useful features are passed onto the next generation. So the animals gradually get better suited to their surroundings and more efficient at catching food or escaping their enemies.
Conditions are not the same everywhere, so a variation that is useful in one place maybe not be useful in another. A species can therefore evolve differently in different places and give rise to to two or more species, each well suited to its own habitat. Those which are not suited, die out. Darwin called this Natural Selection.

Then there is genetic drift, but I need to go get started on dinner now.

Thanks for making my case stronger.

I CAN give you points for saying the keywords in red.

Ah! the dinner saved you right where genetic proof was needed.

---

@ Niksik:

There is no simple way to explain evolution theory to a child since even the proponents may not know what it means and they are like sheep/goats following anti-religious or atheists without using their own brains.

One way to explain is that evolution theory is a theory not yet proven to be true which says we the human MIGHT have come from monkeys.

(Be ready to see wide eyes of poor little child).

Then you can say,

" Beta/Beti, don’t worry it is not about you and all the smart people like us…

… this theory only applies to those who had monkeys as their great, great and great forefathers."

j/k.

[queer]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

this is like the tobacco companies try to say, there is no proven evidence of cigarette smoking causing cancer, all we have are studies and results.

diwana pal, i am not surprised you think theory of evolution claims man evolved from the monkeys around us. lol…

and your usual line that no matter what adaptations and genetic drift occurs in populations, species boundaries cannot be crossed is absurd; species boundaries are very ambiguous and subjective, especially in animals and plants that are in the process of speciation, or have done so fairly recently. someone who cannot grasp these primary concepts but keeps asking for “a single scientific proof” is rather comical…

[diwana]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@queer

this is like the tobacco companies try to say, there is no proven evidence of cigarette smoking causing cancer, all we have are studies and results.

diwana pal, i am not surprised you think theory of evolution claims man evolved from the monkeys around us. lol…

and your usual line that no matter what adaptations and genetic drift occurs in populations, species boundaries cannot be crossed is absurd; species boundaries are very ambiguous and subjective, especially in animals and plants that are in the process of speciation, or have done so fairly recently. someone who cannot grasp these primary concepts but keeps asking for “a single scientific proof” is rather comical…

I am not surprised that you were not able to pick up the essence there. For 8 year old, that is the best one can tell. This is no hidden secret that it does boil down to monkeys as the ancestors of human by evolution theory. (Darwin’s tubercle)

In regards to speciation as having blurred boundaries.

These are man made observations. Many many species are not found or exist between two major groups. And hence still discovering those..to fill the large gaps.

No one has ever observed speciation. It is also a theory based on similarities of organisms observed by us.

But none of these canges has gone far enough to change entire genome to make a whole new species.

Fish remains fish. That is fact.

Human have always been human. From beginning.

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@queer

right, which is why scientists thinks evolution is based on blind faith, just like religion. oh wait, they don't. sorry pal..

Peace queer

That is where the kufr part of it comes in. They lie and have biases, they are more inclined to deny and reject a Creator and if they see something slightly indicative of that they assume it to be science and pass it on as such. At least I am admitting my belief is not scientifically verifiable what I have a problem with is that some scientists know through their teeth that evolution is a belief system yet they still claim the contrary.

As I have demonstrated evolution is just another belief because like any other belief it is not proven. And like any other belief it relies on some future event that is believed to take place that will unravel the "truth".

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@Naabigh

@psyah

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." Surah Al Baqra , ayat no 30 ]

if angels have no Ilm-e-gaib , how could they know that the humans will make mischief on earth ?

To my understanding the form of Adam (AS) seemed very much like any other animal on Earth to the angels.

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@queer

this is like the tobacco companies try to say, there is no proven evidence of cigarette smoking causing cancer, all we have are studies and results.

diwana pal, i am not surprised you think theory of evolution claims man evolved from the monkeys around us. lol…

and your usual line that no matter what adaptations and genetic drift occurs in populations, species boundaries cannot be crossed is absurd; species boundaries are very ambiguous and subjective, especially in animals and plants that are in the process of speciation, or have done so fairly recently. someone who cannot grasp these primary concepts but keeps asking for “a single scientific proof” is rather comical…

There is huge difference in comparing evolution and that data that supports it from tobacco causing cancer and the data that supports it.

Look … We know 2 things in the tobacco scenario … we know a) There are smokers and b) there are cancer patients … then we can see that a larger than normal portion of b) are also in a) … This is called correlation.

Now in evolution we have a variety of fossils each different from another depending on the location, era that they lived. There is no other information that allows a correlation to be made. So it is UNLIKE what the tobacco companies say … even then they do in fact claim proof for something that cannot be proven but heavily suggested, but unfortunately evolution can’t even be heavily suggested as there is no correlation … the fossil record is ruthless and all over the place there is no smooth gradual development process and as a result the neo-darwinian theory has to be made more sophisticated to account for what seem to be backward steps in the evolutionary process.

For example dinosaurs may have lived many millions of years ago, but they are on the grand scale of things quite advanced in evolution. The scientists claim that evolution happens quickly as well … but when it comes to demonstrating evolution today they fall back on the age old argument oh but it takes many millions of years for things to evolve.

[el_topo]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Oh Diwana.
Why do I think mutations can lead to change of species over time? Jebus man, what have I been wittering on about all this time?! I’ve already mentioned adaptive radiation, and the finches. Those cichlids, from one species of cichlids there are now hundreds of different species of cichlids in those lakes. Why they radiated into different species of cichlids, and didn’t suddenly turn into a gerbil or a goat? I want to be sure, is that really what you are asking?
I’m getting sick of typing cichlids, I hope you’re getting as sick reading it. : D

A few other things.
Yes, how dare I go and eat and live my life Bad me, I need a spanking.

• “they are like sheep/goats following anti-religious or atheists without using their own brains”* Baaaa. You and I have never discussed religion, you have no idea what faith may or may not mean to me. So it’s probably a tad silly to be making such assumptions.
  “even the proponents may not know what it means”
  That may well be, but apparently even the opponents lack understanding : "One way to explain is that evolution theory is a theory not yet proven to be true which says we the human MIGHT have come from monkeys."Really? Oh dear.

Look, just to be clear, I’m not mean spirited and I make those remarks in a light hearted manner.
I got involved in this thread because in post 176 you asked “Please tell where in any species simple adaptation or mutation has led to change in species?” I answered you with the cichlids, but you seem to have an incomplete definition of what ‘species’ is, if this is an unfair assessment, then by all means set me straight.
It doesn’t matter to me whether or not you accept evolution, but if we’re discussing it on a public platform then there needs to be a measure of accuracy of definition at the very least, hence why I suggested a group read - to alleviate doubt (from both sides) on that score at least.

Psyah,
Fossils don’t just show the era, they also provide information about their structure, how they moved, how they ate, their environment and living conditions and so forth. But you already know that.
About the sudden appearance of new species, I think that’s a reasonable question. The new species share the characteristics of the old species, characteristics that have been modified. It’s not a case of* *poof**animal a turns into animal x, it’s a transition; see the development of the tetrapods.
If it was just a case of one species becoming extinct and another appearing out of nowhere, and with no connection whatsoever to the extinct species, then there would be no need for it to be transitional.

Niksik,
Genetic drift, a change in the gene pool of a population which basically adds or removes genetic traits. It’s a random thing, and not something that is geared towards survival in anyway. It pertains to small and, I think ideally, isolated populations. I can continue waffling on about this, and other mechanisms of evolution if you want, but ultimately I’m just another jerk on the internet and at some point you’ll have to consult more reliable sources.

For what it’s worth; when I decided to learn more about all this, I ignored the bleating from both sides and just focused on building up an understanding of what everything meant - the definitions. I didn’t start looking at the arguments for or against anything until I was sure I had a working knowledge of the language. I felt it made things easier for me that way.

I don’t think I’ve ever written such long posts on the interent before. I hate you all for this!

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

I got involved in this thread because in post 176 you asked "Please tell where in any species simple adaptation or mutation has led to change in species?" I answered you with the cichlids, but you seem to have an incomplete definition of what 'species' is, if this is an unfair assessment, then by all means set me straight.

...

Psyah, Fossils don't just show the era, they also provide information about their structure, how they moved, how they ate, their environment and living conditions and so forth. But you already know that. About the sudden appearance of new species, I think that's a reasonable question. The new species share the characteristics of the old species, characteristics that have been modified. It's not a case of* poofanimal a turns into animal x, it's a transition; see the development of the tetrapods. If it was just a case of one species becoming extinct and another appearing out of nowhere, and with no connection whatsoever to the extinct species, then there would be **no need for it to be transitional*.

Peace el topo

Now we are getting to the meat of this discussion. This is where I wanted to be many posts back.

Two entities A and B slightly different eras apart ... one can ask did B come from A, because B looks like A and lived in the same region as A ... Or can this similarity point to something else? Scientists the pro-evolution variety have failed to ask the second question, they have merely concluded that similarity is THE deterministic factor for the concept of "TRANSITION" - Not that they have seen the transitional act taking place because that would be PROOF. Now it will be impossible to SEE the act taking place because each transitional child would only be subtly different from the host organism. However fossils will help us determine that ... All we need are hundreds of pregnant fossils spanning through the fossil record and seeing if there is a genetic shift of the unborn child towards the creature that is said to have evolved from it and to do this a number of times to create a chain ... the chain must not be constituted of non-pregnant fossils ... All fossils required to prove evolution must be pregnant otherwise there is no proof of the TRANSITION.

Coming back to the second question - What else can suggest the reason why different species that are found in the same locality are quite similar over different time zones? Well the fact that they both or all came from God. Life contains the "signature" of God. It's like the argument of some Christians about the Qur'an - they say that Muhammad (SAW) copied the Bible. But they fail to see the fact that even the Qur'an states the other scriptures have come before. They the two of them independently came and confirm the same message.

The patterns that we see in the fossil record are analogous to other patterns but because we are able to draw lines between things i.e. dot to dot it does not mean that those dots are meant to be joined.

[el_topo]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

: )

I’m not convinced that’s a question they have failed to ask, just that other answers have not been forthcoming.
Some transitional fossils have been found. As long as we’re all aware that the same species gave birth to the same species, and not to a different species, I know you’re aware of that Psyah, but I worry about others (yes, Diwana, I was hinting at you, monkeyman :P). There was one discovered in Pakistan, of a pregnant protocetid whale. I don’t remember all the details, will look it up.
edit: National Geographic | National Geographic

The God equation. Okay, this could potentially help me further my religious understanding and maybe answer some questions that trouble me. So that we’re on the same page, could you elaborate on what you mean by the signature of god? There are many views about Islam’s stance on evolution, do you think there is even a smidgeon of compatibility between God and evolution, or is it a strict case of either or?

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

^ Peace el topo

If there is a case for evolution it will require the scholars to analyse scripture through the evolution lense. From the onset without actually doing that exercise all I can say that it might be possible that something like intelligent design can be formulated from the scriptures. Otherwise I take creation fairly seriously ... if Allah (SWT) can Create us in spirit then the material is no different to that ... I don't know what comes of me when I go to sleep I experience temporary death every day. I wake up from it and go about my daily things.

We are told in scripture that Allah (SWT) has created this world in a state of deception. That we perceive cause and effect and attribute certain things that happen with explanations like because certains things being in the same place at the same time ... however we very much hold that Allah (SWT) enables all things. Science can tell us may be how things happen, but Islam tells us why they happen. It really only describes the how when there is a basis to argue from it ... such as with the verses in the Qur'an about Creation and Embryology.

Evolution supposes that there is a cause and effect universe and for some reason that it cannot explain the universe of living creatures seek to improve their conditions of life and this done subconsciously. The transition effect therefore is not random but is wired towards self-improvement and preservation. However, evolution can't explain why that is the case. Why is nature not as self-destructive? Why does entropy decrease in life yet increase in dead things?

Regarding the transitional fossils ... you have mistakenly thought my request for proof is a single example of mother and foetus ... the proof I need is a series of fossils each in a chain containing mother with genetic code that is the same as the genetic code as another foetus in a different mother and a foetus whose genetic code varies from its mother in say about 10 -15 stages, then the proof would be that the last stage variant specimen is alive and the first stage specimen from a branch that has not varied through those stages at all is alive and to get them to mate - if they do not or are sexually incompatible then that would be proof of speciation.

[Krypton]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

blah blah blah blah

people who need to use verbosity to get a point across really have no argument. no substance.

; )

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@el_topo

Bad me, I need a spanking.

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Psyah bru, I saw entropy up there. I'm sure you know our world is not a closed system and hence the whole entropy argument falls through.

[el_topo]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

^ Ha, I saw him in an episode of Episodes, and man, Joey got grey.

Philosophy, :(
no more winking smilies, please!

Psyah, Yeah, I didn't expect that fossil example to mean anything to you but I felt it was relevant and of importance.
You may find ring speciation to be of interest too. Dang it, I don't want us to go around in circles with this. Ha.

I always have to read your posts on religion at least twice, that's a good thing; makes me think.
The why. I'm not so certain anymore that religion provides the why because ultimately it all seems to boil down to; it is so because He says it is so, and yes I may be over simplyfying it. I want to understand the why more than I know how to express, but of late it has begun to elude me.
I like the entropy question, and by way of answer I'd point towards the second law of thermodynamics. Not sure I understand the nature question, I'll give it some thought.

edit, goddamn got there first!
edit edit;* goddamn* ?? Blasphemer. :P

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@el_topo

Ha, I saw him in an episode of Episodes, and man, Joey got grey.

All the cool people are getting old and dying. First those Bollywood Goray rapists and now Joey is slowly fading away! What is the world coming to?!

@el_topo

I like the entropy question, and by way of answer I’d point towards the second law of thermodynamics.

I’m pretty sure I addressed that SmartyPants!

EDIT: Darnit you edited it, you editing editor

EDIT EDIT: Shhhhhh!

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

^Peace godd**iamawesome

Yes I know that our world is a closed system ... I was not asking why there is order in the world though ... I was comparing dead things and living things in the same world. What is it about living matter that makes its entropy lower and what is it about everything else in nature IN THE WORLD that makes it increase?

The dead organic molecules for example ... why don't living things come about from them? Why does it decompose? Why does it take something that is already alive to propagate life?

I have heard the argument of order and randomness and being used to support the idea of the existence of God and the counter argument being like what you have said namely the not closed system dynamic explanation for locally decreasing entropy whereas universally it would be increasing ... My point is not that at all ...

My point is within the same frame of reference i.e. within this world two similar things behave 'entropically' (yes I've made that term up) different.

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Bru our world is not a closed system.

In simple terms, living things have their molecules arranged and organised. Living organism are not closed system. We take energy from all around us, its a free for all. Look at the world around us, there are obvious examples like the sun giving us regular periods of light and heat. Free energy to take and we can keep our inherent entropy lower.

And living things could come about from dead organic molecules if the necessary change in entropy occurred. We do not say the change will occur, we say its possible. Now we can say random chance or God. No one is denying the existence of God but we are merely discussing ways God might have implemented His will.

[el_topo]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

evolution, thermodynamics, and white goray rapists all in one thread. grin

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Where else would you get that?!

Now this blasphemer is off to ask forgiveness. Fajr, here I come! :o

[psyah]

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Bru our world is not a closed system.

In simple terms, living things have their molecules arranged and organised. Living organism are not closed system. We take energy from all around us, its a free for all. Look at the world around us, there are obvious examples like the sun giving us regular periods of light and heat. Free energy to take and we can keep our inherent entropy lower.

And living things could come about from dead organic molecules if the necessary change in entropy occurred. We do not say the change will occur, we say its possible. Now we can say random chance or God. No one is denying the existence of God but we are merely discussing ways God might have implemented His will.

I missed the word 'not' out of my response ... please re-read it exactly as is but put the word 'not' in thanks.

Putting it another way ... why does life increase in order and yet everything else decreases? What is it about evolution that not only does it occur by chance but it does so in situations the odds of which are heavily stacked against it. Yet the idea of evolution is to allege that nature wants to bring about better life forms ... I can't see how that is the case.