Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Mmmm this stuff reminds me of Harun Yahya's articles
Carry on folks, interesting discussion
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Please re-read it exactly as is but put the word 'not' in thanks.
My post still stands bru.
Why does life increase in order and yet everything else decreases?
Life does not increase in order, it maintains order using all the free energy around us. We are an open system and in the most crude/simplest explanation we breathe in and out, we eat food and we poop, we drink water and we pee and we sweat thereby releasing heat and cooling ourselves (Amongst a whole load of other processes happening). What goes in, comes out too. Everything else decreases in order because that is what the universe or nature tends to.
What is it about evolution that not only does it occur by chance but it does so in situations the odds of which are heavily stacked against it. Yet the idea of evolution is to allege that nature wants to bring about better life forms.
Evolution is not intelligent, it does not need perfection nor does it give perfection. It requires a good enough combination of various factors already discussed in this thread and there is then the possibility that something more suited to the environment will be the result. Things like differential reproduction, variation and hereditary factors result in natural selection which ultimately can lead to evolution. Its just a highly likely process that Allah might have intended.
I don't say evolution or a supreme creator. I say evolution might be the supreme creator's way.
The problem here is that some people think believing in evolution means you disbelieve in God. It may just have been the way Allah willed. Saying no it was not so would be tantamount to knowing the will of Allah and that would almost border on Shirk. We are merely saying perhaps this is how we were supposed to be, Allah knows best.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Ok so there's more muslim believers of evolution than I expected which makes me think am I missing out on some important facts?
I would like the muslim posters to give a short, concise, simple answer to this question so I can finally make up my mind about evolution: Does evolution contradict Islam? Give reasons, preferably facts. If it doesn't, I'm all for it. If it does, I'd rather get beaten up by all ye evolutionists than favour Darwin over Allah swt.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Life does not increase in order, it maintains order using all the free energy around us. We are an open system and in the most crude/simplest explanation we breathe in and out, we eat food and we poop, we drink water and we pee and we sweat thereby releasing heat and cooling ourselves (Amongst a whole load of other processes happening). What goes in, comes out too. Everything else decreases in order because that is what the universe or nature tends to.
Evolution is not intelligent, it does not need perfection nor does it give perfection. It requires a good enough combination of various factors already discussed in this thread and there is then the possibility that something more suited to the environment will be the result. Things like differential reproduction, variation and hereditary factors result in natural selection which ultimately can lead to evolution. Its just a highly likely process that Allah might have intended.
I don't say evolution or a supreme creator. I say evolution might be the supreme creator's way.
The problem here is that some people think believing in evolution means you disbelieve in God. It may just have been the way Allah willed. Saying no it was not so would be tantamount to knowing the will of Allah and that would almost border on Shirk. We are merely saying perhaps this is how we were supposed to be, Allah knows best.
Peace g...
Life does not increase in order, but if we accept evolution then we will have to say that life increases in order. This is the point I'm trying to make. That evolution makes future life forms 'better' or 'more progressed' or 'more ordered' than their parent.
Life is more than biochemistry ...
Life is also perfect - let no one convince you otherwise ... Life is as perfect as existence is perfect. Biochemistry and genetics may be deficient but the life contained in the form is a perfect one.
You wrote above everything else decreases in order because that is the way the universe or nature tends to ... that is not an explanation. It's like saying the reason why I go to work is because that is what I tend to do. That is not a reason. Why should the universe want to tend to do anything?
My point is that Allah has given all things a purpose ... and when I look for that purpose I find it. Things are signs of Him.
Saying no to evolution is not shirk, because we have scripture that tells us about Creation ... the burden of proof is on evolution to show that it is truly the way Allah (SWT) made the universe. Therefore the default position for a Muslim should be to be weary and distanced from evolution.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
I have a question for you GIDSA (and even Topo if she has similar ideas) since you are pointing at evolution being a God directed phenomenon.
How do you reconcile that belief with the commonly accepted ideas of Adam and Eve, them being expelled from heaven for disobeying God etc. If we take Adam and Eve to truly be the first humans and also evolution to be true, what happened to Adam's immediate ancestors? Were they not subject to this test of life which ultimately is supposed to end in hell or heaven? If we cannot explain this, then do we relegate these things in the Quran to the figure of speech bucket?
I'm not on one side or another although I do incline toward evolution...well because the facts are there...at least within each species.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Humm,
Lots of ideas have passed by.
Which one to pick and drag further is my dilemma.
So el topo used key words of would be and could have been. I just want to reiterate since confirmation was lacking above.... Sorry. :)
Then, the idea of** mutation** was brought. It was not elaborated further since that was bound to fail to show any support for evolution theory.
Fossil record and something found in Pakistan by a Michigander was brought to show something MIGHT BE, 47 million years ago (not 46 or 48 but 47 million years;.... not 47 thousand but 47 million years) as a whale gave birth to an offspring on land NOT in water,.......... but on land, as higher mammals of head first ( like human). Not all human are born head down. Some come out on feet and 'moon' the nurse...;)
**
So how many assumptions can one made in one or two such alleged events to prove millions of organisms experiencing evolution?**
What happened to those land dwelling and birthing-whales or for that matter all of those "land-born whales"?
Then the thermodynamics.
Evolution is claimed to be an event occurring on its own, going from lower to higher organized organism. Simpler to complex organisms.
That contradicts thermodynamics.
Things left alone, are bound be disorganized. ** External force is required to keep organization.**
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
And the cichilds, the favorite of el topo; the reason to come in to this thread.
Those are sub-species. Kinfolks. Uncle/aunty/cousins/grandpa/nieces…etc.
I must repeat. Fish remained fish. Human remained human since beginning. 
P.S. I ignored spanking part…too tempting to discuss. 
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/EV/competition-cooperation-symbiosis-defies-darwin.asp
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Evolution/Natural Selection does not contradict Islam except in the case of human evolution where things get a bit interesting.
Science - Humans evolved just like everything else on this planet. This view is hard to reconcile with my faith. It does not leave room for a special creation of man.
Science says we evolved from single celled organisms to what we are today based on our competition and cooperation with the world around us. Now that is very likely and the Quran does not disagree except in the case of human evolution where its a bit murky. This scientific idea is the most likely scenario observed all around us. Species fighting and working together for survival where the best characteristics have a higher probability of surviving. Its just how life works. Now the scientific view that we have evolved from humanoids who have evolved from more primitive organisms seems most likely but I find it comforting to say perhaps humans have had a separate path as destined by Allah. It helps me feel better about my faith. I don’t know for sure and Allah knows best so I put my faith in Him. I have lost my religion and come back to it after some of the most difficult times in my life and hence I believe in the logic, reason and philosophy of Islam (Even though it may be difficult at times, looking at the bigger picture I am appeased) and I believe it does not have to contradict science.
Faith - Humans were created by Allah at the beginning specifically as humans. At least this is what comes across until we find a better interpretation. Allah knows best.
Now Muslims were at the forefront of sciences, languages and culture while the whole world was a dark and depressing place. We were the renaissance of knowledge. The Church rejected and punished anyone who came up with ideas borrowed from the work of Muslims; work that ultimately proved to be true. Why are we suddenly so afraid of science? We seem to have fallen into the trap of siding with the Biblical Creationists while at the same time we reject the bible as accurate. We take their arguments and spew them forth while giving each other congratulatory MashaAllah’s, yes I’ve seen it in university debates. We fail to understand the logical fallacies in those arguments. We need to develop and investigate ourselves to find a route that does not contradict the Quran or perhaps understand the Quran better. The Quran has so far given us a green light to everything science has proved (Within the texts of the Quran). So why do we feel so threatened by all this talk of Natural Selection (Which is a proven and observable phenomena in nature)? I don’t know, everyone needs to ask that question to themselves, I cannot do it for you and you cannot do it for me.
A selection of Quranic verses and Ahadith that leave enough room to support Evolution.
Do they not see how Allah begins the Creation, then repeats it? That is easy for Allah (to do) (Al-'Ankaboot, 29: 19).
Say: “Travel through the Earth and see how He began the Creation. Then, Allah makes the latter Creation. Allah is capable of (doing) everything” (Al-'Ankaboot, 29: 20).
24.45 . Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, ( another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (he wants).
32.7. (Allah is He) who has made everything He created better, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay.
6.2. He is Who has created you from clay, then He spent a term of time (away from you), and (it is) a specific term He determined. Yet, you doubt (His ability)!.
15.26 . We created the human being from stinking, smooth, (and wet) clay.
71.17. And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth like plants.
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- It is He Who created you, fashioned you perfectly, and made you with the right proportions.
30.22 . And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, as well as the difference of your languages and colors. In these, there are signs for people of knowledge.
The above verses leave plenty of room for scientific interpretation of the Quran. We shouldn’t fall into the trap of picking and choosing science or faith. Both can work together. What is plausible is plausible, we cannot deny that Allah may have willed everything so. We should never be so stubborn.
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: “Allah created Adam from a handful of dust taken from different lands, so the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land. Therefore from mankind we have white, red, black and yellow ones; we have good and evil, ease and sorrow, and what comes in between them.”
Now you could interpret it as saying we have been created to the best of our surroundings. The method of creation is not a hard and fast definition which leaves room for scientific interpretation; something that is in disagreement with other non-Islamic Creationists.
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: "Allah created Adam from dust after He mixed the clay and left him for some time until it became sticky mud, after which Allah shaped him. After that Allah left him till it became like potter’s clay. Iblis used to go past him saying ‘You have been created for a great purpose.’ After that Allah breathed His spirit into him. The first thing into which the spirit passed was his eye and then his nose. He sneezed. Allah said: "May your Lord have mercy upon you, O Adam! Go to those angels and see what they would say.’ So Adam went and greeted them. they replied saying: “Peace be upon you and the mercy and blessings of Allah.” Allah said: “O Adam! This is your greeting and that of your offspring.”
Again, this does not give a hard and fast process. Plenty of room to fit scientific proposals.
Maybe because Allah wills it so? You seem to think when I dispel the arguments on entropy I somehow say there is no God. I believe in Allah, AlhamdliAllah.
Everything tends to disorder because that is so. We are ordered because we eat plants and animals which get their energy from the sun. Entropy can be maintained because our open system allows for additional sources. The net result however is pretty much an increase in entropy. We will decay, time moves forward. From an Islamic perspective nature is ordered chaos. Perhaps Allah has designed it to display such tendencies.
The following verse relates to Souls but does it not stand true of everything?
21.35 Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned.
I have mentioned above that I do find it hard to reconcile my faith and science on that one aspect; human evolution. Allah knows best but perhaps humans have a separate line of evolution? That is one tough area for me as a Muslim to understand right now. Science tells me it happened. Religion isn’t TOO clear on that. Maybe that’s a good thing though. Like I said we don’t have hard and fast yet erroneous examples and arguments such as the bible. The Quran leaves room for a lot more interpretation. Perhaps as time goes on and with better fossil records we might uncover something that helps me say both things are true. Allah knows best.
You need to walk out of this thread because you are making my head hurt. You fail to understand fundamentals and seek to debate this topic? How arrogant and asinine can you get, no really.
You talk in such a lofty way, then the thermodynamics… What about it? Its been discussed and debunked. Please try again.
How many times must I repeat entropy increases overall. The sun’s radiation gives us heat and light. An unlimited (For now) source of energy that we can use to remain organised ourselves. There’s a reason living things cannot survive in complete darkness. Death and disease.
Please excuse yourself from this thread.
Bru, species developing together is very likely. Allah can will whatever He wants. For your argument to be true the argument that things that cannot exist independently cannot survive should be true too. It makes sense. But no, that argument falls through as well. In fact evolution very comfortably exists in the presence of symbiotic relationships.
Species A and B may or may not have a symbiotic relationship. They might be two things that never interact.
A evolves with a variation into A1 while B evolves with a variation into B1.
Now A1 may have a feature that it cannot use on B so it may rely on a beneficial feature on B1.
A1 and B1 may or may not form a symbiotic relationship.
If they do and it is profitable, they may carry on and may or may not evolve further.
I’m not sure if I have explained that part in a very comprehensible manner but the jist is very obvious, or should be.
Allah is the best of planners. We cannot discount any possibilities; more so in the face of very scientific observations. Please do not fall into the trap of Biblical Creationists and their arguments.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
^ And breathe. : D
Jo, I don’t try any more to reconcile it. The only two things I am certain of are; we live, and then we die. Everything else, I’m still trying to figure out.
I’d love to read Inayatullah Khan al-Mashraqi’s Tazkira, but I can’t find a copy. : (
Diwana. I wonder, am I such a lousy communicator or are you just that (perhaps deliberately) obtuse. Maybe a mix of the two. But man, you kill me.
Saw this and thought of us all : D :
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Thank you gidsa for the detailed reply. :k:
After 13 pages of discussion on this matter, I’m still at where I was before. Natural selection I never denied but human evolution is something that raises my eyebrows. How do you expect me to believe in something that I don’t understand (and neither do any of the muslim pro-evolutionists)? That said, evolution is the least of my worries, it isn’t going to add to my sawaab/gunaah list. Allah swt knows best.
And I shall say goodbye to this thread with this: This is supposed to be a mature discussion, what’s up with all the sarcastic comments? If you can’t handle other people’s views, you might as well leave instead of dissing them.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Religious people who deny evolution or are afraid to accept even its possibility, are very similar to those who deny God's existence.
Both bring God down to their level and try to understand Him and His works based on their own little brains.
So these religious folks find it hard to reconcile story of Adam and Eve with evolution. Thus their response to totally deny its possibility.
I wish they could have more faith in God.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Barbiecue, don't leave. :(
If you ignore some of the unnecessarily argumentative stuff, there are some things of actual worth to the thread. With regards to the believing things that one doesn't understand, from my point of view; I'm not trying to make anyone believe anything.I just wanted an element of balance/reason to the thread, and an acknowledgement that there is so much important data out there, and though it may not fit into their specific desired parameters, it is of importance and should not be dismissed so carelessly.
Also, Diwana and I only bicker because we're in love (it's okay Diwana, I think it's time the world knew).
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Same here Topo, been trying to figure out things and don't care much about "reconciling"..it's just taking way too long though. Mmmm. Will be back to read GIDSA's post later.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Barbiecue, don't leave. :( If you ignore some of the unnecessarily argumentative stuff, there are some things of actual worth to the thread. With regards to the believing things that one doesn't understand, from my point of view; I'm not trying to make anyone believe anything.I just wanted an element of balance/reason to the thread, and an acknowledgement that there is so much important data out there, and though it may not fit into their specific desired parameters, it is of importance and should not be dismissed so carelessly. Also, Diwana and I only bicker because we're in love (it's okay Diwana, I think it's time the world knew).
El topo, I liked your posts along with gidsa's and psyah's. If this thread has changed anything for me, it would be that I now acknowledge that there may be room for evolution in Islam but we just don't know clearly, do we?
And my last para wasn't aimed at you or diwana at all, I was talking about the sarcastic comments like huh those who deny evolution think they're holier than thou ....
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
I don’t know if I even made much sense. Its just that whole entropy argument got me a bit charged. I’m a Ninjaneer so you know I have to take my Thermodynamics seriously. :hinna:
Playing the devil’s advocate here… Why would you believe in natural selection and disbelieve in human evolution? How can you pick and choose scientific theory?
I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I’m not picking sides, I’m a Muslim after all. Its just when certain people post without even having a hint of what they’re talking about; mostly to further their circular reasoning. Its bound to agitate you. And I didn’t pick on him, I politely asked him to excuse himself! 
That’s sorta along the lines that I feel. There is room for evolution in Islam. Infact Muslims were the ones to propose all these hypotheses before anyone else had any inkling. Of course we came after the Greeks (Those guys were on another level).
Its a bit of a rant really and the irony isn’t lost on me. I know here I am saying I have yet to reconcile my religion with science on certain issues while at the same time arguing for both religion and science. So yeah, I know that’s just weird.
There is evidence of ‘macroevolution’ as the term goes. There have been various intermediate fossils found. I’m sure someone might have listed something in this thread. Plus humans possess vestiges that are useful or pronounced in other life forms but pointless in humans. How does that work?
The overwhelming evidence is in favour of evolution and natural selection. The challenge for Muslims is whether we can digest that without abandoning faith and science.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
I wasn’t talking about you guyssss… I’ve read through this entire thread and I noticed how some people haven’t contributed anything to the discussion apart from laughing at the “opposition”. That’s what I was referring to. Khair chaddo. You guys are cool!
As for picking and choosing scientific theories, well why not? Didn’t people agree that science and religion can go hand in hand? I acknowledge certain elements of the theory of evolution while insisting upon the supremacy of Allah swt in the process. I think they refer to this as “Theistic Evolution” i.e. evolution is a tool employed by God to develop life forms. Whether that applies to human life too? It isn’t clear (in religion) so I don’t know.
I think this is the best we can do, right? Instead of believing in intelligent design (which leaves no room for evolution) or believing in all elements of evolution (which leaves room for many questions) we can pick and choose bits from both until we fully understand which we perhaps never will. As I said, it is the least of my worries anyway.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Ooh I guess ‘Chor Ki Dari Mein Tinka’ :o
Why you’re alright too! 
Scientific evidence pretty much states that it applies to human life too. But then there’s a lot of text to go through. I’ll say fair play, I understand your position. So yeah, Allah knows best!
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Scientific evidence pretty much states that it applies to human life too. But then there's a lot of text to go through. I'll say fair play, I understand your position. So yeah, Allah knows best!
Yes but does that scientific evidence go against the Quran or does Quran actually back up human evolution, we don't know. Allah swt does know best.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Yes but does that scientific evidence go against the Quran or does Quran actually back up human evolution, we don't know. Allah swt does know best.
Word, I leave that open to interpretation and individual perspective.