What kind of Muslim are you?
There is ONLY ONE LORD, and that is ALLAH. Lord is ONLY One, Never been more than One.
Muhammad(S.A.W) Is Allah’s MESSENGER.
Islamic Law Are Made By Allah ONLY. Muhammad(S.A.W) Is Allah’s Messenger Only.
I think you read Quran, But You Never Tried to Understand It. Shame On You.
Sorry 2 bar post hogaye.
Re: why are Indian muslims such 'nationalists'?
I don't even know how to address the question the threadstarter put forth. Quite frankly, it has many answers, and many of those answers are right.
Here's one:
You respect the land where you reside and abide by its rules. Love it or leave it. If that's nationalism, then we should all be nationalists to some extent as long as the freedom to live/earn/practice religion are not barred. Simple as that.
Re: why are Indian muslims such 'nationalists'?
Indian Muslims are the best Muslims in the world. Period.
They are free, open-minded and most importantly secular. They love INDIA because despite being Muslims in a Hindu majority country and in generally inferior economic plight, they can still aspire to be A R Rehman, Shahrukh Khan, Mohammed Azharuddin, Abul Kalam etc. Muslim women can look up to Sania Mirza, Shabana Azmi etc.
I can write an essay to elaborate further....but I will not.
Indian Muslims are the best Muslims in the world. Period.
They are free, open-minded and most importantly secular. They love INDIA because despite being Muslims in a Hindu majority country and in generally inferior economic plight, they can still aspire to be A R Rehman, Shahrukh Khan, Mohammed Azharuddin, Abul Kalam etc. Muslim women can look up to Sania Mirza, Shabana Azmi etc.
I can write an essay to elaborate further....but I will not.
Not true, either factually or rhetorically.
Best muslims are those who practice Islam to the fullest, the rest are aspiring, or half, or muslims by names and they're all found everywhere. The earth is wide and spread. Some of the best muslims maybe found in Africa, America, Australia, even in the middle of nowhere. It's not inclusive to Pakistan or India or Asia alone for that matter.
Blind patriotism is not a good thing; just as painting everyone with the same brush isn't. :)
Well, ever since Pakistan was created, and both countries became hostile to each other, it was widely believed in India, that Indian Muslim (Most of them), have been sympathetic to Pakistan. I dont want to go into details or arguments, but its true, everyone knows that at least in India. And let me make it clear, that it was true for most muslims but definetely not for all of them.
Considering the Islamic teaching, its not bad either. As a muslim, one has to be brotherly and friendly to muslim rather than kuffar. There is no place of Nationality in Islam but concept of Ummah is supreme. Same applies here.But unfortunately, most hindus of India were always unable to digest this notion. They always felt that pro-Pakistan bias of Indian muslims is equivalant to treason. This feeling may have prompted some muslims to act in a Nationalist way. One cant doubt about that.
Muslims are seen as a maltreated and oppressed community in India by Pakistanis in general. This is absolutely false statement. While riots against muslims cant be denied, at the same time, riot against hindus cant be denied too in India, and riots among muslims too cant be denied in muslim countries. India is only country in the world where muslims have been given special status as minorities. they enjoy being governed by muslim personal laws, government gives them many previlages like reservation for them and subsidy in haj, and many more.
So it may be personal choice of some Indian muslims to become Nationlist, but definetely there is no pressure on them to be so. Its solely their own choice. Just like two years back, there was a lot of noise that muslims have to sing Indian national song, Vande Matram. Some sung the song, some simply stayed away, and some vocally denied to obilige, and exhorted others to follow. Simply like a true secular democracy.
Peace.
Im sure many Muslims in India are patriotic and nationalist... But there is no contradiction in being a Muslim and being an Indian, so long as the Indian state isnt attacking Islam as a religion.
The Punjabi person implied that Muslims in India put there Indian nationality before their religion, which is complete nonsense. Indian Muslims, or any genuine Muslim would always say their religion comes first.
As for riots, a few dozen killed over a certain period of time is understandable, but when your talking about riots in India, you talking deaths in the thousands over a span of a few days.
And Hindus certaily are killed in rioting, but for the most part, the riots are instigated by the majority against the minority.
Indian Muslims came out on the streets of Mumbai after 26/11 to denounce Pakistani terrorism. Here they were being Indians first, rather than siding with Muslim Pakistan.
But if Indian muslims choose nation over religion, you will say they are doing it under pressure. Yours is a circular arguement.
Yeah, they came out so Hindus dont label them as co conspirators, and burn them alive.
Ever heard of being more Patriotic then the king, or more Catholic then the Pope?!?!
FYI, there were Hindus in Pakistan who protested the crackdown on the Islamic group India blamed for the attack.
Anyways, you obviously know nothing about Islam or about Muslims.
A Muslim by definition is Muslim first. Being for or against Pakistan doesnt define your faith. Indian Muslims arent putting their nationality before their faith by protesting against Pakistan, as Pakistan is only a country, while Islam is a religion.
Also, Pakistanis who choose their faith over their nationality are not unique to Pakistan. The Extremist movements across the Muslim world are comprised of those who aspire for a pan Islamic ideal. These are all people who put their faith before their nationalities.
This conflict between faith and the state is an issue across the Muslim world, including in India, whether you like to admit it or not.
And lastly, whatever you call terrorism, was not "Pakistani terrorism" because it was not planned by Pakistan. Its this typical India BS that causes all the conflict. Get you terminology straight.
I suggest you go read a book. Muslims are far more complex then you naive assesment of them.
This is such a wilful lie that you are singlehandedly proving the earlier statement of generalized insult that one Mr.Robert penned a bit earlier here. Come on, there's a limit
I probably know 10 times more Pakistani Muslims than you will ever know of Indian Muslims and quite frankly going by current events, Indian Muslims are more patriotic to India than Pakistanis are to Pakistan. There you go.
Im sure you know Milllions of Indian Muslims... But we know the actual situation of Indian Muslims despite your glossing over of the situation.
The facts is that Muslims know they are a minority in India, and as such, are boholden to the whims of the majority. Perhaps they are patriotic, but I think they all know what happens if they arent.
Prove me wrong.
Besides, it not very difficult for an Indian Muslims to portray him or herself as being a nationalist. To be an patriotic Indian Muslim, you have but to keep your head down, never speak up, and always cower before the majority.
I think most Indian Muslims fullfil this requirment with ease.
As for Muslims in Pakistan, the vast majority of Pakistanis are peacful and patriotic... But again you wouldnt know that.
And as far as extremists go, that is a problem not only in Pakistan, but across the Muslim world. You see, unlke Hindus that are intimately connected to India, Islam and Muslims are not tied to any one nation.
But still, even in the minds of Extremists, they are doing the right thing for their nation. The Taliban have even said that they are patriotic towards the nation, even if their actions are vile and criminal to say the least.
Bottom line, to understand the Muslims in Pakstan requires you learn more about Muslims in general. I think your confusion of Muslims and Islam in general, feeds your ignorance of not only Pakistanis, but also of Indian Muslims and the issues they face. Go do some reading.
Im sure many Muslims in India are patriotic and nationalist... But there is no contradiction in being a Muslim and being an Indian, so long as the Indian state isnt attacking Islam as a religion.
The Punjabi person implied that Muslims in India put there Indian nationality before their religion, which is complete nonsense. Indian Muslims, or any genuine Muslim would always say their religion comes first.
As for riots, a few dozen killed over a certain period of time is understandable, but when your talking about riots in India, you talking deaths in the thousands over a span of a few days. And Hindus certaily are killed in rioting, but for the most part, the riots are instigated by the majority against the minority.
Any muslim would say that their religion comes first before anything, but its only words most of the times, not religion. Therefore we dont see Islam in practise anywhere but just lip services and show off.
Dont talk of few dozens brother, just count how many muslims have been killed in Pakistan while living among muslims themselves, than compare it with Indian muslims been killed in riots, things will become a bit clear to U. U can repeatedly point towards blot on our face, U have right to do that, but till how long? hasnt we learned from our past mistakes? While in ur nation, muslims are being killed by most sophisticated weapons and bombs by none other than muslims themselves, its better to understand now like we did. Otherwise...........ALLAH is watching.
Peace.
Any muslim would say that their religion comes first before anything, but its only words most of the times, not religion. Therefore we dont see Islam in practise anywhere but just lip services and show off.
Dont talk of few dozens brother, just count how many muslims have been killed in Pakistan while living among muslims themselves, than compare it with Indian muslims been killed in riots, things will become a bit clear to U. U can repeatedly point towards blot on our face, U have right to do that, but till how long? hasnt we learned from our past mistakes? While in ur nation, muslims are being killed by most sophisticated weapons and bombs by none other than muslims themselves, its better to understand now like we did. Otherwise...........ALLAH is watching.
Peace.
Its not words brother... Any honest and sincere Muslim, if you asked them to choose between their faith and India, would choose their din. I think you underestimate the religious fervor of Muslims.
Im not talking about extremists or terrorists... Im talking about every day Muslims, just the average peace loving human being. If you forced such a person to choose their faith or their country, they would choose their faith.
Punjabi guy seems to think this isnt the case, and that Indians protesting Pakistan are somhow putting their nationality before their faith. This is complete nonsense. The fact is that India has never asked them to choose faith over nation, and so they have never had to choose.
And Pakistan is Pakistan. Your right, Muslims have died here, like Muslims have died in many countries. But thankfully, never on the scale or the brutality of the Gujrat riots, or the Barbri mosque riots.
The issue here is, we recognize the problems of Pakistan. There is no denying them. But why all this touting and chest thumping over how patriotic and nationlist your monorities are? Why arent you people honest, why dont you admit that your treatment of the Muslims falls far short of how you would like to protray it. Perhaps they are patriotic, so what! Does that somehow vidicate you, seeing an India Muslim waving the Indian tri color?
Its not words brother... Any honest and sincere Muslim, if you asked them to choose between their faith and India, would choose their din. I think you underestimate the religious fervor of Muslims.
And Pakistan is Pakistan. Your right, Muslims have died here, like Muslims have died in many countries. But thankfully, never on the scale or the brutality of the Gujrat riots, or the Barbri mosque riots. The issue here is, we recognize the problems of Pakistan. There is no denying them. But why all this touting and chest thumping over how patriotic and nationlist your monorities are? Why arent you people honest, why dont you admit that your treatment of the Muslims falls far short of how you would like to protray it.
I dont underestimate religious fervor of Muslims brother, but often call it hypocricy. We can talk on this if U want to.
Muslims are still dying there in ur country brother, and by most sophisticated weapons in full view of ur army. Be honest to admit. Ur sisters are forcibly being denied education, in ur own muslim nation, be honest to admit it. And our treatment to our muslim brothers and sisters has been better than U guys. forgot erstwhile east Pakistan? brutality of ur armed forces they unleashed on poor muslims? We admit that a section of our ppls have been brutal on muslims, and we are successfully able to check that menace too. Its time for U to act and be honest inspite of bowing down before thugs.
And if someone(Not myself a single time) is calling their muslim brothers nationlistic than what is causing problems to U?
Perhaps.. But you try telling a Muslim that he cant pray if he isnt an Indian first… See how that works out. Hypocracy or not, even the worst offenders would draw the line.
I have admited it… And we admit it everyday. And we are reviled by this. When did anyone deny any of this?
But sadly, this is symptomatic not of a problem that is afflicting much of the Muslim world right now, and that being extremism.
As for East Pakistan, we paid the price for our mistakes there, despite the fact that it was not commited by the people of Pakistan, but by a military ditatorship.
Indians have not been succesful… No one has been arrested for the crimes commited in Gujrat, infact, the main culprit was rewarded…
And how many people have been punished for what has happened or does happen in Kashmir?
Pakistan Army is limited in what it can do in Swat. The bottom line is that the you cant kill terrorists without killing civilians, and the longer it went on, the more the civilians were turning against the Army. There was a HUGE rally in Swat not long before the peace initiative, where the people themselves demanded that peace be resotred and Sharia law be imposed.
Now what is the Army or the govt to do in this situation? Kill more civilians? Are we to turn the entire place into what India has in Kashmir, a virtual police state?
The issue is more complex then simply killing terrorists. I think you Indians have a very naive understanding of the situation. I think there is more strategy involved in this then what apparent on the surface.
But offcourse, in the end, the deal may break down still, expecially if the terrorsits continue their bs.
But the fortunate part is that women are going back to school at some levels and things seem to be slowly getting back to some form of normality. Read the following as evidence.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Diary of a Pakistani schoolgirl (vi)
Seems that we are reaching to an agreement that problems are at both sides. But I dont agree with ur excuse about terrorism in Swat. Its duty of the state to ensure peace in region rather than bowing down to terrorists. U are free to differ.
U have raised questions about arrests in Gujrat, Permit me to tell U that U are still ignorant whatever is happening in Gujrat and India. Read following stories about convictions that have been done,
Gujarat riots: eight get life for Eral killings
Conviction of Gujarat Riot Culprits Will Re-establish the Credibility of the Judiciary
And I admit that no one has been convicted in Kashmir for genocide of hindus by their muslim brother, and to the extent that hindus had to leave their homes and take shelter in other parts of India. But justice of ALLAH is supreme and will take its time. dont worry about that.
Re: why are Indian muslims such 'nationalists'?
One fundamental point I would like to make
** Pakistan <> Islam **
It is just another country which tries to feign Islam. Indian muslims are intelligent enough to understand this. They know that their future is tied to the development of the land that they are living in. They made an intelligent choice in 1947 and chose to remain in a free land where everybody is free to practise their own religion.
Agree 100%.
I think this point was made amply clear by Maulana Madani’s response to Musharraf at the India Today conclave.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/world-affairs/314181-what-indian-muslim-said-musharraf.html
Too bad Gujrat and Babri Mosque r India too
That Pakistan is going down the drain is no secret … it’s well on it’s way to anarchy and a possible coup
This country’s administration and its civilian/military rulers have done hardly anything Islamic in the Past and presence
Being an Ahmadi I can tell u something about Prosecution based on some PPLs twisted Idea of Islam.
Ask a common man in Pakistan and mostly u’ll hear they’ve hardly any hope for a better future
India on the other hands might have a stable Gov but the domestic problems r for sure an uphill battle (Hunger and poverty the main tasks) and the Muslim minority is just a small part of it.
So i don’t how much this leaves us to enjoy each others misery.
It’s like two neighbors, both have cancer of a different kind, both rather enjoy each others cries of pain than thinking about taking necessary bitter pills/measures to cure their own respective cancer
It's like two neighbors, both have cancer of a different kind,
In a way you are right .... but it is "malignant" in one case !!!!!!
In a way you are right .... but it is "malignant" in one case !!!!!!
It's like two neighbors, both have cancer of a different kind, both rather enjoy each others cries of pain than thinking about taking necessary bitter pills/measures to cure their own respective cancer.
No wonder you keep posting every possible negative news you can find about Pakistan on this forum, it's almost your full time job :)
One fundamental point I would like to make
*Pakistan <> Islam *
It is just another country which tries to feign Islam. Indian muslims are intelligent enough to understand this. They know that their future is tied to the development of the land that they are living in. They made an intelligent choice in 1947 and chose to remain in a free land where everybody is free to practise their own religion.
I dont think they made an intellegent choice... Ask the thousands who have been killed on your orgies of violence.
Honestly, you Indians give your self far to much credit...
What he said is that please dont involve us in your problems, as they will only cause Muslims problems in India…
Another words, if Pakistan highlights the problems of Indian Muslims, they will be burnt alive the way they were in Gujrat…