Who should you ask for help? Allah alone or some other dead human?

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Desert fox, I asked you some questions why don’t you answer those so IF I have some misunderstanding about your faith, it will go away. What you say sir?

Niaz given on the name of Allah is OK. Niaz given on the name of ali or some other dead Imam is WRONG and big sin(shirk).

Why don’t you face the facts, in my post I presented you with a scenerio that happened with me while I was talking to one of my shia friends. Now, If I posted a question for you, how does that make me wana creat fights between shia and sunni?

Face and see the truth, not flee the truth my friend.

Because I was angry on what my friend told me about niaz and asking help from Imams that is why I posted this thread. DO YOU COMPREHEND THAT? What part of that don’t you understand?
Go see the picture in gallery forum, see what people are doing in sameera area in Iraq, they are praying to graves. Fear Allah. Good luck. Take it easy sir.

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PS: If you CAN, please answer my questions.

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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

42

To all Brothers/Sisters, We must all stick Qur`an And Hadith of the Prophet.

As for watcher,
you asked:
"Isn't it shirk to ask for help from a dead person and not from allah? "

I will answer that question as from what is brought From Qur`an And Hadith.

It's Kufur (Shirk) to think that a human being can create a difference in your life. However, it's ^ibadah, it's totlay permisseble as for what farhina and others in that post said that you can ask Allah help by the blessings and virtue of Prophet Muhammad. So you can say O Allah grant me paradice by the virtue of Peophet Muhamad and Saliheen.. You are asking Allah for that help. The Prophet or the great Waliyy has great great status that's why Allah made it permissable. Allah said in al Qur`an :
{wabtaghoo ilayhilwaseelah}

This is called tawassul or tabarruk, and that is all permissible in Islam. It has been mentioned repeatedly that the sahabah used to seek Barakah from the Prophet, some used to get barakah from his hair, from his clothes.. That's all permissible, as long as the person doesn't worship that Prophet or think that the Prophet is generating or creationg the help.

Not like what the wehabbies say that it's kufur for you just if you say Ya Muhammad. They say you are only to say Ya Allah.. and to them you can't say salat and salam after Athan, they have made their own Madhab and in that belief, they say that Allah is sitting above us just like the jews said!! Allah said in Al Qur`an: Nothing Resembles Allah. And before places Allah existed without a place and now he is as he was and this is affirmed from the saying of Imam ^aliyy radiallahu ^anhu.

Brothers/Sisters, the true ^aqidah (creed) is the one that Millions of Muslims follow worldwide not a sect with innovated thoughts that oppose the religion, because there are innovationns that comply with the relighion and they are permissible such as Al Mawlid, celebration of the Prophet, or such as praying taraweeh in a group, or having the dots in Al Quran - a dot under the ba, dot above the Fa` letters - none of these were done on the time of the Prophet Sallallahu ^alayhy wasallam.

As Ashafi^yy said, Bid^a is into tow types: one that opposes Al Quran and Sunnah, and one that complies and agrees with Quran and Sunnah.

This is the ^aqidah of the true Muslims and true lovers of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu ^alayhi wasallam. We ask Allah to keep us and you steadfast on this ^aqidah ameen. Wassalam.

<<>> Learning the Obligatory Knowledge of the Religion puts the Muslim on the road for excellence and self-betterment.
Acquire Islamic Knowledge!!

43

Thanks for clearing that out. Some people go on graves and read namaaz and ask the dead for help, they think of that dead person as a connection to Allah. When one is allways in connection with allah. Allah says that HE is close to us, closer than our throats!!! Why do we still need a connection of a dead person to contact him. It just seems stupid and Unislamic.
You mean we can say: Darood Sharif and than say our “duah?” We can also do that. Right?

I am glad you SAW my question Ahmad G, others really missed it.

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Take it easy sir.

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

44

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**My take on this issue is a bit different.

Adios!**
[/quote]

Read your first post on the issue. Don't want to go into it as everyone is mature and "behes" in religion is not allowed. Just want to let you know that you were brilliant.
To add to your comment: Inteqaal means transfer, moving. No one "dies" in Islam. They cease to exist, physically, in our dimension. The ones who are pious are always in ibadat of Allah (sbwt). To beseech them to pray of us is preferable. One is ultimately responsible for their own action. They get what they deserve not what they ask for.

Anyway, as there are as many stands on this issue as there are muslims.

45

Hazrat Ali is Shaheed NOT dead! And Shaheed is not Dead!

Thaey are not Praying to It!!!

They are asking them to Intercade with Allah for them!They are Alive!You can only pray to Allah We ask them to intercade with Allah for us coz we know they are very close to Allah!

Coz All of them are Shaheed and Ahle-bayt Whic Allah says are free of Sins!

As people have cleared it before the person Might not have gotten the message clear to you!

Suar Dhar 76:7
They fulfil thier vows, and fear the day whose evil shall spread far and wide

Sura Al hajj 22:29
They let them cleanse themselves of the dirt and fulfil thier vows and circumambulate the ancient house

Vows means Nazar in urdu(not the eyes seeing)to please god! vows to keep a promise and to fulfil it! That is manat (an other Whabi no-no)

there are more!

Sura Dahar 73:8
And inspite of thier own needs they give food for the love of him, to the poor, and the orphan and the captive

Sura Dahar 73:9
(Saying)"we only feed for the sake of Allah;we do not seek any recompromise from you, nor(even) thank

and for the Ahly-bayt

Sura Al-Araf 7:157
(and) those who follow the messenger, the prophet, the ummi, whom they find mentioned in writing in the Tawarat and the Injil(see watcher the two of the three books from god I told you about); he commands them to that which is good and he prevents them from that which is evil; and he makes lawfull for them what is good and he prohibits for them what is fowl. And he relives them of the yolks and burduns and the yolks that lie upon them. so those who belive him and honur him and help him and follow the light which has been sent with him(this light is not Quran because it came to him not with him this light is the Ahle-bayt and you must follow them and not move away from them), are those who achive success.

See Watcher About vows (niaz, nazar, manat)
Ahle bayt are not human they are paak light!
And the greatness of Ahle-bayt is more than you can hold!

There are more cluse about Ahle-bayt in Quran which will prove thier right to Imamat!

More?

Sura Ale-Imran 3:33
Veriuly, Allah chose Adam and nuh and the descendents of Ibraheem(Mohammed and Ahle-bayt) and the descdants of imran above all his creatures.

Read sura Ale-Imaran and you will see the truth clear on your face!

46

jannu. I will just like to make one slight alteration to your statement. In my view it should be “To beseech them to pray of us is allowed”. In any case there are many opinions and so we should not argue over this point.

By reading these posts I was just reminded of my childhood. I remember before any exam or in case of any problem, I used to sit with my grandmother (nani) and will ask her to pray for me. She always did that and afterwards, I would feel so happy and confident that now Allah will help me. Although this doesn’t mean that I didn’t pray for myself, it just means that I always thought my nani, being so pious and ibadaatguzar, her prayers have a bigger chance of acceptance.

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She is now no more with us. But I still go to her eternal resting place and pray to Allah to increase her stature. I also talk to her and request her to keep praying for me. I know she still listens to me and prays for my success. Don’t ask me why? And DON’T TELL ME how stupid it sounds.

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Adios!

47

Watcher where are you! you go away and make a new post and you forget about the last! Tell me am I right? Why are you running away now? stop bieng Chicken and let me see you quote from Quran!

Oh yeah Watcher stop running away and making new posts and totally forgetting about the last! You your self said "being arrogant is a big sin" and now where are you?

48

Desert fox[sabar karo], shaheed are not dead in a sense, that is understandable, but the issue is how can they help you, when they are not in this world. They are basher! Are you saying that Shaheeds are alive in their graves now and can hear you making supplication to them?

You said:

“Suar Dhar 76:7
They fulfil thier vows, and fear the day whose evil shall spread far and wide”

suar Dhar? # 76? It does not exist as #76 sir. Surah 76 is Surah al-insaan! YES. You are to give food to needy and orphans ON THE NAME OF ALLAH not on the name of Hazrat Ali or any another Imam.

You said:

*“Sura Al hajj 22:29
They let them cleanse themselves of the dirt and fulfil thier vows and circumambulate the ancient house” *

If you read verse prior to verse 29 you will see what kind of “vow” is Allah talking about.

Surah Al hajj 22: 26 and 28. read like this:
26 - And [mention O Mohammad], when we designated for abraham the site of the house, [saying], "DO NOT ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH ME(Allah) and purify my house for those who perform tawaf and those who stand [in prayer] and those who bow and prostrate.

28- “That they may winess * benefit for themselves and mention the name of Allah on known * days over what he has provided for them of [sacrificial] animals. So eat of them and feed the miserable and poor.”

Where IN QURAN is Allah asking you to give “vows” on the name of Ali or any other Imaams or Prophets? Allah did not even ask us to give “niaz” - “nazars” on the name of Mohammad, how can you say that its ok for you to give “vows” on the name of Ali?

Sir, again you are misreporting the verses from Quran. Let me correct something. You said:
“Sura Dahar 73:8
And inspite of thier own needs they give food for the love of him, to the poor, and the orphan and the captive”

AND

"Sura Dahar 73:9
(Saying)“we only feed for the sake of Allah;we do not seek any recompromise from you, nor(even) thank”

Sir, surah dahar??? # 73? Surah # 73 is Surah Al-Muzzammil and NOT surah dahar. Want me to list the whole verses here? Let me.

Surah Al-muzzammil: 73: 8-9.
8-** “And remember the name of your lord and devote yourself to him[completely] devotion.”**
9- **He is the lord of the east and the west; there is no deity(God, devine being) except HIM, so take him as disposer of [your] affairs. **

Where is Ali mentioned in those verses, or where is the idea mentioned in those verses that you should give nazar on the name of some Imam and not Allah.

You have been misinformed.

Sura Al-Araf 7:157
(and) those who follow the messenger, the prophet, the ummi, whom they find mentioned in writing in the Tawarat and the Injil*(see watcher the two of the three books from god I told you about***)**; he commands them to that which is good and he prevents them from that which is evil; and he makes lawfull for them what is good and he prohibits for them what is fowl. And he relives them of the yolks and burduns and the yolks that lie upon them. so those who belive him and honur him and help him and follow the light which has been sent with him(this light is not Quran because it came to him not with him this light is the Ahle-bayt and you must follow them and not move away from them), are those who achive success.*
****You told me about? I thought you said in other post that there were 4 scriptures and not 3? Now they are 3 as you said: “the two of the three books from god”. Make up your mind and/or show me some verse from quran about this matter!

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May Allah help you sir.

Sura Al-Araf 7:157 - You have misinterpreted the verse according to what suits you. Not good my friend. In that verse Allah only is refering to Mohammad and following him. The word “Ahly-bayt” is not even mentioned in that verse.

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This is how verse is, without the addition of your words in “brackets.”

Surah Al-Araf 7: 157 - 158
157- Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written * in what they have the Torah and the gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prophibits for them the evil and relieves them of their "burden"and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

158- Say, [O Muhammad], “O mankind, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; HE GIVES LIFE AND CAUSES DEATH.” So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and his words, and follow him that you maybe guided.

Do you see?
Ahly-bayt are/were “HUMANS”.
And prophets, they are righteous people who ALLAH has chosen AMONG HUMANS to convey his message.

Imaam Ali bin Abu-Talib (r.a.) said: “The Messenger of Allah called me and told me: ‘You are alike with Jesus, Jews hated him till they slandered his mother, and Christians loved him till they put him in the position that is not for him.’ With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. Verily, I am not a prophet, and there is nothing revealed to me. But I work with the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of his Prophet (pbuh) as much as I can. So whatever I have asked you in regard of obeying Allah, it is your duty to obey me whether you like it or not.” [Ahmad]

There is a specific Hadith about Rafida: “A sect is going to emerge who will be known by a bad connotation. They will be called Rafida. They will come neither on Friday nor in the congregational prayers. They will vilify the first generation (of Ummah). You should neither keep their company nor dine with them, nor have matrimonial relationship with them. If they fall ill do not go to greet them and if they die do not participate in their funeral prayers.”

O People, I leave amongst you two things which if you follow, you will never go astray. They are the Book of Allah(QURAN) and Prophet’s Sunnah.

The Sunnis believe Obedience And Devotion is due only to the Messenger of Allah, for Allah says in His Book "Whosoever obeys the Messenger, he has verily obeyed Allah.‘’ No other person deserves our strict adherence or our obedience and devotion. Our responsibilities to others are defined by known legal principles, and there is no obedience due to any human being if that entails disobedience to the Creator.

PS: Please don’t tell me what to read and what not to read, you are the one who needs to read. Many times you misreported verses from Quran. If you try to interpret it the way you want it and the way it suits your needs, than it is not the truth. And the thing about 4 scriptures, yar why don’t you show me some verse from quran, you keep on repeating same thing over and over again, show me from QURAN, enlighten me. Good LUCK Sir.

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Take it easy.

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited October 23, 2000).]***

49

Watcher,
Suraah Insaan and Suraah Dahr are the same.And the no. is 76.
You know the first words are "Hal ata alal insaane heen-um-min Ad-Dahr...".That's why it is known as both surah dahr and surah insaan.

50

Watcher,,,,I would give up.......I mean,,,you have presented your side with proof with nothing else but the QURAN!!!!!!!...these brothers of ours are not going to understand.....they have their ears bound from our voices........or the voice of teh Quran.......they can't see the plain fact taht asking someone dead to help out in problems is not as good as asking the Creator, Himself....they've got their twisting ways to ask for help.......forget......nice try though wiht all the facts and figures...some were really good.!

51

Ask help only from Allah S.W.T.

What is Niaz???? All rubbish.

Don't have much time to read all the stuff to reply in detail.

May Allah S.W.T. guide you all to the right path.

52

Brother Ahmad, thanks for the clarification.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Now I know.

X-C you are right, they cannot provide any solid proof of their beliefs. They practice something call “taqiyya”(concealing the truth) in their religion. They fabricate hadiths, and curse sahabaah. May Allah have his wrath on these people who corrupt Islam!

I demand that Shair30 be deleted or ban from posting on this Islamic religious forum, he deliberately cursed sahahba and disrespected them MANY times and disrespected the sunnah of Mohammad.

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

53

I fear Allah so much that I am afraid of judging anyone let alone the people that were around our Beloved prophet.

Only Allah knows what was in the hearts of the Sahaba and what is in our hearts, so who has the right to judge.. us or Allah?

I have come accross many people who make judgements that even learned scholars dare to make!!

Lets look at ourselves first shall we before we condemn anyone else.

Brother, how is your Salat?

54

My brothers
Does any of you not belive in Ahle-bayt?(does any of you know who they are) if you dont you will be in the dark!
Allah sent his devine message through Hazrat Jibraeeil. so way can't we sent our message (to Allah coz these poeople are very close to him and he loves them for sure)to some one living and one who we do not precive?

Niaz(shia Niaz anyway is for Allah not Some person whoever he is)Your fried Watcher must have gotten it wrong(don't forget lots of Sunnis also give Niaz).

Allah has always sent his message through something so I think we can also send it through someone very close to him!!!

55

Desert Fox: Can you back up what you have said there?

If Allah wants us to ask his creation to ask him for help.. where does it say this in Quran or Sunnah?

If there is no reference to this, then surely this is an innovation in islam?

Look forward to your response.

56

Assalaam-u-alaikum to all.

A very interesting topic and obviousley one which arouses strong feelings in all muslims (regardless of sect).

There is no doubt that we as muslims must only ask Allah for help and since he alone has power over all things, he alone can help us. But....

Allah taala has also given certain gifts to some of his most beloved and pious people. That is not to say that they have God-Like powers.. NO!.. the event itself is still under the control of Allah.. its ditribution however is left upto the individual concerned. (confused ???). Well as an example.. think of Hazrath Isa (Jesus) bringing people back from the dead or Curing Leprosy, Only Allah Taala has power of life and death but Hazrath Isa was given the ability to envoke that power when he saw fit to do so. There are many examples like this concerning all of Allah Tallas prophets and most of them are documented in the Holy Quran.

So how does all this fit into the plot ?.. Well there is no doubt that the chances of a Du'a from a pious person has a much greater chance of being answered than that of your everyday sinner like me. Simply because such a person has gained special favours from the Almighty through prayer, perservearence and sacrifice. So, if for example you have a very sick mother, you could concider going to a Peer or some other pious religious figure and ask them to pray for your mothers return to good health. Think of it as intersession. There is a greater chance of this prayer being answered if it comes from this peer than if it comes from your average Joe on the street. follow me so far ??.

Sorry this is getting a bit long but I'm trying my best to answer most of the questions people have.

So now we come to the topic of asking the dead for help or going to graves etc..

hmm...First of all, as muslims you MUST believe that dead is NOT dead.. it is merely a transisiton from one state/dimension to another. If dead were dead.. then that puts into question everything Islam has to say about your life in the grave, the questions you will be asked and the punishment you will receive (evidence of which can be found in the Quran). So the question remains, Can you ask someone in the grave to intercede for you and ask Allah for help on your behalf ?. (once again.. please note you're NOT asking them (grave dwellers) for help). I believe the answer has to be YES.

As for Niaz, I think the following passage from the Holy Quran makes it clear that we as Muslims should spend our wealth in the Name of Almight Allah, weather that spending takes the form of feeding the hungry, treating the sick/wounded paying for repairs/developments for the local Mosque or whatever form you wish, as long as you're doing it to please Allah Taala.

Surah 47 (Muhammad)
38. Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in the Way of Allah. But among you are some that are niggardly....

Now giving Niaz for the sake of someone else so that they get the Sawaab,to me sounds perfectly permissable. Remember your not giving Niaz to say Hazrath Ali (RA), Your still giving Niaz to Allah Taala, but what you're actually doing is giving Niaz on behalf of someone else (for example Hazrath Ali (RA)). so that they receive the sawaab.

Hope this helps.. if anyone wants me to clarify/elaborate on any of the above I will reply in a new post... this one is getting a bit out if hand !

apologies once again for the long post. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you all.

Death is only the Beginning.

57

ok arch angel...i get ur pt...but my question is :

The Quran is simply a book guiding us how to live our lives on earth. It tells us to pray to Allah, to praise Allah, to remember Allah, to speak of His words amongst others...etc....and then we are rewarded (sawab) if we follow the Quran....if all of this is correct, why should we call on a spirit that Allah controls and has called to Himself (Ali, Hussain, etc) to help us reach Allah for forgiveness or for sawab? Why shouldnt we be able to communicate (mentally) with Allah rather than having a person (who has no contact wiht teh living) communicate our thoughts to Allah when we are told (from birth) that Allah is everywhere......? plz try and explain...

58

innovation in islam, innovation in islam, blah blah blah. listen you all who talk about innovation in quran,

**
where does it say in quran to pray wearing shoes?where did these weird wahabi mullahs come up with this fatwa?

where does it say in quran tp pray only friday prayers and it will remove all your sins?where did these saudi mullahs come up with this fatwa?
**

these are all innovations. all saudi, wahabi mullah fatwas are innovations because they are never mentioned in quran. they are bidats. got it

shair

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59

X_Communist >>
**
ok arch angel...i get ur pt...but my question is :

The Quran is simply a book guiding us how to live our lives on earth. It tells us to pray to Allah, to praise Allah, to remember Allah, to speak of His words amongst...
if all of this is correct, why should we call on a spirit that Allah controls and has called to Himself (Ali, Hussain, etc) to help us reach Allah for forgiveness or for sawab?...
**

Yaar, I agree that we ourselves can reach Almighty Allah directly without going through someone else, Allah hears the prayers of all his creation. BUT, there are some amongst his creation who are closer and dearer to Allah Taala (Prophets, Auliyaa-e-Karaam and other pious personalities).

Now just because Allah Taala hears all our prayers, does not mean that he will grant ALL of them. However if the same prayer was performed by say a Prophet of Allah then there is a mouch greater chance that Allah Taala will not only hear the prayer but grant it also.

As for your question regarding the dead who have no contact with the living, well yaar, just because WE have no contact with them, does not mean that Alaah Taala has no contact with them also. There is no reason why these people cannot or do not communicate with the Almighty. Therefore, equally, there is no reason why they cannot communicate with Allah Taala on your behalf.

Hope this helps.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you.

Death is only the Beginning.

60

If so called ‘wahabis’ are doing this, then why are you pointing the finger at sunni’s?

I don’t believe that only praying on a Friday will remove all my sins. I don’t even know if Allah will accept any of my prayers.

Allah knows best.

I’m very concerned here that you are bringing up this wahabi issue.

Not so long ago, a user was found with three different nicknames and he was also stirring this ‘wahabi’ issue. He was using each of his nicknames to back himself up!!

Let me put forward a question to you. Islam was completed in the time of Prophet Muhammed PBUH - what gives us imperfect humans a right to add anything to it afterwards?

The Khalifs after Prophet Muhammed PBUH ruled by his method - Sharia. What gives us the right to add anything after Islam was completed?

I hope your intentions are clean Shair, look forward to discussing with you.