Who should you ask for help? Allah alone or some other dead human?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I was just talking to one of my shia friend, I asked her what she was doing she replies "we are giving out “niaz.” I ask her what is that? She answers back that “it is giving something on name of prophet and Imam Ali.”
I ask her another question out of confusion: Why would you give something on name of Ali or prophet? Isn’t that bring Ali or prophet on level of Allah? That you give things on their names instead of Allah. Than she goes that its allright yada yada yada…

I said, you are soppose to give offerings on the name of Allah alone and ONLY Allah and not on the name of some dead human being. As we continue she tries very hard to convince me that “we can ask the dead Imams and Prophets for help and they can help you and hear you” I was really really mad at her!

Isn’t it shirk to ask for help from a dead person and not from allah?

Why are people so ignorent and stupid and they just cross the lines when it comes to respect and understanding the true status of Imams and Prophet.

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

2

To me it seems like Sh'iah muslims are somehow instituting their own form of Catholicism in Islam. Having to pray to prophets/Imams, is equivalent to praying or using "Saints" as people of guidance to God.

Another question bro, because I don't know every religion in the world. What exactly is Muslim Sufism? I know it exists, and it is followed by MANY people.

3

Niaz is Given out in the name of the prophet(PBUH) and Imam Ali we are keeping up a tradition 1400 years old! They(hazrat Ali, Prohet Mohammed)used to give out food and so we are following them in thier cause but let me tell you the purpose is to please Allah!

Shias are not the only ones innovating in Islam so are sunnis and Wahabis!

lets give the example of Taravi(praying Quran in Namaz) this is not a sunnah of the prophet nor is it mentioned in Quran!

an other example is in the Azaan for Fajar you guys say As-salat-un-kairun-minal-youm
which again is not a sunnah of the prohet!

please look at your self first and then look at us!

Alahh is Allah and I don't want to hear this crap about putting men with Allah or Hazrat Ali was supposed to be a Prophet this is NOT again I repeat NOT Shiaism! Don't anyone dare think of Shias like this!

And Watcher please look at your self first and then others!

4

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
**Niaz is Given out in the name of the prophet(PBUH) and Imam Ali we are keeping up a tradition 1400 years old! They(hazrat Ali, Prohet Mohammed)used to give out food and so we are following them in thier cause but let me tell you the purpose is to please Allah!

B]
[/quote]

I am a sunni, we also give out niaz, and yes desert fox we do so to please Allah.

Watcher

Niaz is given out e.g when someone is ill and you pray for them to get better, you pray to ALLAH, and then if that person does get better you give out niaz to mean that you are thankful to Allah for them having got better. It can be given out in lots of other cases also.

Maybe someone can give a better explanation.

5

The Watcher,
I am sunni myself, but i have a lot of shia friends, i know that they don't give niaz to anyone, except Allah. Either your friend may have miscommunicated the idea with you, and you are just taking words from her mouth, and exploiting them. Or else, she maybe the only doing it, and she's wrong.

As for the niaz itself, i can only relate it to sadqua or when you give something in the name of Allah (SWT)for a better outcome of a situation or you just give it to please Allah (SWT).

6

Watcher, I hope that some people do not get the wrong idea from your post... because it seems that you might be painting all shias with the same brush.... would you care to correct me?

They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

7

My take on this issue is a bit different.

It is definitely shirk, if someone thinks that anyone but Allah can solve any problem. As a muslim it is our imaan that all situations in our lives are created by the will of Allah, and therefore, it is Allah alone who can help us. Allah can use any means to help us. E.g. if you have a tough homework and you expect your roommate is the only one who can help you. As a muslim you must believe that Allah will solve the problem, and the roommate will be a source (waseela) to solve that problem. Meaning Allah will make it happen so that the roommate will help you in your problem.

Pious people, those who are true momineen, and those who are greater in taqwa are closer to Allah, as they are superior. Additionally, many people believe that prayers of those who are closer to Allah will have greater chance of acceptance than ordinary muslims. There is great difference of opinion amongst the muslim scholars on this point.

Some scholars, especially those of the wahabi madhab, strongly dispute this and say that every muslim should have a direct link with Allah.... and if there is any problem, the muslim should ask Allah directly. In Quran, Allah Ta'alla has asked muslims to direct all prayers to Allah alone, as He will listen to our prayers and He alone will solve all our problems and grant us our wishes.

On the other hand, there are scholars, both sunni and shia, who say that Allah alone will solve all our problems. And surely Allah listens to all humans and all muslims. However, if a pious person or a mutaqi prays before Allah, because Allah likes the mutaqi person more, He will accept the prayers more favorably. So infact a muslim is encouraged to pray to Allah, in addition the muslim can also request a pious person to pray for him so that Allah bestows more favors on us.

Another important point to understand is that we all know that Quran states that those who die in Allah's name (shaheed), don't call them dead, they are alive, only we (the humans) do not have the capability (to see them). This means that those who are dear to Allah will always be alive (even after their worldly life is over). Only we don't have the inner eye to see them.

By the same token, our Prophet (PBUH), the pious sahaba (RA), Imams (RA) can all be alive, only we are incapable of seeing them. This means, to some scholars, that we can request these pious people to pray for us so that Allah showers more of His mercies on us.

As mentioned earlier, this a point of great different of opinion amongst muslim scholars. In recent times, with an extra ordinary presence of wahabi madrassas and scholars, a growing number of muslims tend to associate all such behaviour as shirk and bid'at.

Only Allah knows the truth. It is best if such issues are not blown up and especially no muslim should call another muslim as 'kaafir'. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs so no arguments should be drawn out to outwit the other muslim. This is entirely a matter of belief. Ofcourse, if we feel that the other person is blantantly carrying out shirk, then it is our responsibility to point out, and if the other person persists, then we should pray for them, and carry on with our lives. Unnecessary infighting only weakens the Ummah and favors our foes, the non-believers.

Adios!

8

With this one of my reply , this thread will take twist to differnt topic of tarawih , actually i found a topic related to tarawih so i wanted to share with others ,

Title : Is it permissable (jaiz) to perform eight raka'at for Tarawih Salah?

Content :
The question (mas'alah) seems superfluous to anyone with even the most basic and rudimentary understanding of Islam, since the tarawih salah itself is not obligatory (fard). The Prophet (SAW) himself took great care to emphasize this. According to a report recorded in Al-Bukhari, the Prophet (SAW) performed the special night prayer of Ramadan for three nights in congregation (jama'ah) in the Masjid, and on the fourth night the Masjid was over-crowded with people and could not accommodate them, but the Prophet (SAW) did not turn up and only came out for the Fajr prayers. When the Prophet (SAW) completed the Fajr prayers, he informed the people that he intentionally did not come out to perform the special night prayers since he was afraid people would come to understand it to be obligatory (fard). (Kitabut Tarawih, Vol 3, p. 127)
Furthermore, though the jurists (fuqaha) are agreed that the special prayers during the nights of Ramadan are desirable (mandub), they differed as to whether those performed immediately after the Isha prayers, as was introduced by 'Umar (RA), have greater merit to those performed during the latter part of the night, as was preferred by the Prophet (SAW). There are authentic reports that 'Umar (RA) himself acknowledged that he had introduced what he believed to be an excellent innovation (ni'amal bid'ah) by performing the special night prayer immediately after the Isha salah. 'Umar (RA) however also understood quite clearly that this innovation was not superior to the practice of the Prophet (SAW) and thus declared: "What a good innovation (bid'ah) this is, but it is better to sleep and delay it until the latter portion of the night" (This is related by Al-Bukhari, Ibn Khuzaima, Al-Baihaqi and others.)
There was also no consensus (ijm'a) among the classical jurists (fuqaha) concerning the preferred number of raka'at (units of prayer) for tarawih salah.
Aishah (RA) reported that the Prophet (SAW) would not pray more than eleven raka'at (inclusive of witr) during the nights of Ramadan. This is related by both Bukhari and Muslim. Ibn Khuzaimah and Ibn Hibban have recorded in their sahihs on the authority of Jabir that the Prophet (SAW) prayed eight raka'at for tarawih. Abu Ya'la and at-Tabarani record with a hasan chain, from Jabir that Uba'y ibn Ka'ab came to the Prophet (SAW) and said: "O Messenger of Allah, I have done something last night (i.e. during Ramadan). The Prophet (SAW) said:"And what was that, O Uba'y?" He said: "The women in my house said: We do not recite Quran (well or much), so can we pray behind you? I prayed eight raka'at and witr with them." The Messenger of Allah (SAW) was pleased with that and did not say anything."
Sayyid Sabiq, the author of Fiqh us-Sunnah concludes from all of these emphatic reports that eight raka'at is the sunnah from the Messenger of Allah and nothing besides that is authentic. (Fiqh us-Sunnah, Vol 2, p.28)
The majority of classical jurists however accepted the innovation introduced during the khilaphate of 'Umar (RA), 'Uthman (RA) and 'Ali (RA) during which time the number of raka'at had been increased to twenty (20). They based their position on a tradition (hadith) in which the Prophet (SAW) is reported to have said: "You have to follow my sunnah and those of my rightly guided successors."
Malik (RA) is however of the view that tarawih is thirty six (36) raka'at. (Fiqh us-Sunnah, Vol 2, p.28). This seems also to have been the practice of the people of Madinah. (Dr Sayed Mutawalli Ad-Darsh) Ibn Abu Shayba has reported from Dawud ibn Qays, who said: "I prayed with people during the time of 'Umar ibn 'Abd Al-'Aziz and Abban ibn 'Uthman and they used to pray thirty (36) raka'at and offered another three as witr. (Bidayatal Mujtahid, Vol 1, p.23)
How are we to make sense of all of these different and contradictory reports concerning the number of raka'at for tarawih salah? Al-Zarqani was faced with a similar dilemma and found the following explanation useful. He says:"Ibn Hibban mentions that in the beginning tarawih prayers were eleven raka'at(including witr). As they prolonged recitation in them people found it tiresome. So they shortened the recitation and increased the number of raka'at and they prayed twenty raka'at with moderate recitation. This did not include witr. Later on the recitation was still further shortened and they prayed thirty six raka'at besides witr. (Fiqh us-Sunnah, Vol 3, p.28)
In conclusion, it is permissable (jaiz) to perform eight raka'at for tarawih salah. But it is also permissable to perform twenty raka'at or thirty six raka'at for tarawih salah. The first eight raka'at could be considered to be sunnah and the rest preferred (mustahab).

9

Re: Niaz.

Watcher, I am not sure entirely. It is defnitely distributed in the name of Allah. I suppose, the point your lady was trying to make that the sawaab for this good deed (niaz) was for Hazrat Ali (RA).

Ofcourse, according to some wahabi scholars, dead people won't receive any sawaab, once they are dead. Hence these scholars disagree with offering anything which provides sawaab to anyone dead.

Personally I feel sad about it. It is my belief that people in this world can surely do good deeds and dedicate the sawaab to their parents, or to anyone they love. We have quran-khwani for our beloved relatives who are dead, so that Allah increases the good deeds of the dead and provide them a place in paradise. There is a hadith which says that good children are a source of happiness for the parents even after the parents' die. I take it to mean that good deeds done by the kids will help the parents in the tough stages after death. By the same token, we can dedicate our good deeds to any other person, including Prophet (PBUH) or Imam (RA).

There is a difference of opinion on this matter as well. So we should not argue over our beliefs. Just stating what we believe should be enough. I, for one, won't argue with anyone, whether what I believe is correct or not. Muslim scholars have given their opinion on both these beliefs. You can choose the opinion which you feel has a stronger evidence supporting it, and stick with it.

Adios!

10

Logic Bomb buddy.

You just forgot one tiny thing in your post. Many shias do not consider Bukhari or Muslim to be entirely authentic. I think this is what you will get as a reaction to your post.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

In any case, you point was that tarawih is not fard anyway. It is just a gift of Ramadan. Anyone who prays will get his reward. Those who don’t won’t. There is no compulsion to finish Quran. And there is no prohibition to pray nafil as much as you want. Therefore there is no point in arguing. And yes, this will take this thread off to another tangent.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

11

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**

Pious people, those who are true momineen, and those who are greater in taqwa are closer to Allah, as they are superior. Additionally, many people believe that prayers of those who are closer to Allah will have greater chance of acceptance than ordinary muslims.

Adios!**
[/quote]

So like people who go to darbaars and ziaratein are not totally wrong, because this is the main reason they go to these places to pray yes?

12

thanks for your positive feedback brother pristine, sister mariah and others. Watcher I warn you not to start that shai sunni debate and create misunderstanding among muslims. I really dont understand, why watcher and people like him dont get banned when they are always ready to mess up the friendly atmosphere that exist between the members. I am a shia muslim and was having some incredibly excellent discussions with pristine, degas, malik, fraudia, mariah, and others who come here with an open heart and an urge to understand and give importance to other’s opinions, instead of accusing others and saying, hey you do this, you do this, this is all crap. Therefore, Mr. Watcher, I warn you to change your approach if you really want to debate here.

shair

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/mad.gif

13

ME ME ME!!!
fuee.tripod.com
[email protected] http://144.132.53.121/recent?0
picture

[This message has been edited by who—me (edited October 20, 2000).]

14

We have Niaz(koonday) tomorrow which is saturday at our place, everyone is welcome to come

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

15

I am very pleased with a very good point of from Pristine and Shair, God bless you brothers. I am sunni muslim and we do Niaz as well and I don't think any muslim think Prophets's (pbuh) equal to Allah, this is misconception been spread by non-muslims to make us fight. Please be like brothers and sisters and don't fight and don't bring this kind of arguments. If you have your point of view or you confuse about something try to put it in a nice way as a question, not smacking on someone's face. If you are really a good muslim and you care then you should always think that what Quran says about how to respect other people's religion too. I hope I dont offend anyone here. God bless you all.

16

I am a Sunni muslim and after reseearching up on Shia doctrine, I found that it all makes sense. There is not any difference between Shias and Sunnis except who they follow as Imam. They believe that Hazrat Ali (R.A) should have been the first Kahlifah instead of Abu Bakr. They give proof to this by quoting hadith from our own Sunni books. After him the consider his descendents to be the rightful heirs to calipahte. They consider the Ahle-bait to be Infallible. They give the 12 descendent of our Holy Prophet (pbuh) the utmost honor and respect. If you look in the history books and see how corrupt some of the caliphas were, you will understand that power had fallen into the wrong hands. Some of these people even changed the sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh)and steal money from the funds raised for poor people. They acquired tremendous wealth in this fashion. How can we, as Sunnis, say that that the Khalifah system was set up fairly, when the grandsons of our own Prophet (pbuh) gave their lives fighting against Muawiah and Yazid?

You talk about niaz. This is something we as Sunnis do too. It is said that pious people do not really die. They may seem dead to us but Allah keeps them living. This whole concept may be alien to a lot of muslims. In fact, Wahhabis reject it totally by claiming that this kind of thinking is shirk.
There is a spiritual side to our religion and this is it. Unfortunately, to Wahhabis the whole spiritual world of islam is unknown. They are definitely at loss. Lot of people here claim that they have nothing to do with Wahhabism, but they sure follow their ideology. Wahabis refute the beliefs of Shias as well as Sufis. Think about what you are doing before you call true Muslims kafirs. Those who desecrate the graves of our Prophet's (pbuh) relatives are definitely not on the right path. May Allah's curse be on them.

17

But isn’t the purpose of Niaz or Sadka to feed the hungry and the poor? Why bother who is it for? Just feed the poor, and whoever is listening (or not) is not important. Sometimes people loose the sight of a good deed and look for trivial reasons to appease and gratify their numinous or spirituality. Is shouldn’t be like this.

On another somewhat similar issue, I would like to know the opinions of the scholars here:

I distribute free needles to Drug Addicts in New York City (by they way, I am guilty of breaking NYState Law which forbids to distribute needles). Would my deed be a considered a Niaz? Or is it just a good deed (or a bad one) in your opinion?

18

assalato khairumminanaum was NOT a part of Azan during Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)'s time. It was later added by the second Kaliph Hazrat Omar.

It is a "bidaat" in religion.
shair.

[This message has been edited by shair30 (edited October 20, 2000).]

19

Only Allah can help us! But we certianly request his dear one to help us out by saying YA ALI MADAD ( I guess even sunni says soliders in war says it).
We are saying YA ALI MADAD it does not mean that we are asking help alone from him and making him ALLAH.
Let me give you an example.
If you have this task which can be easily done with the help of your friends uncle or someone like close friend of your friend. Would you go ask your friends uncle or friends Friend directly or you would go ask your friend to help have task done.
In the same way! We SHIA thinks Our Prophet Mohd(AS) and IMAM ALI(AS) IS close to ALLAH.
ALWAYS REMMEBER OUR PROPHET IS NOT DEAD.
The biggest prove it is our "QALMA"
We all say. "GOD is ONE and Mohd(as) IS his prophet"
We do not say GOD is ONE and Mohd was his prophet"
Prophet was not human " HE was prophet" Born Prophet.
If something looks like human it is not nesscary that it is human. We are human full of sins can not compare our self to our prophet or Imams.
If you have any question you can e mail me too. May Allah guide as all to right path.(amen)

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[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited October 20, 2000).]