Who should you ask for help? Allah alone or some other dead human?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Just to clarify three points Desert fox has made,and brother who--me wants two of them explained,
First of all the tarawih prayer.Well this is a sunnah and it is not compulsory to pray this at all but of course there is reward for it.THIS IS NOT AN INNOVATION.Desert fox is mixing it with the order of hazrat Umar(r.a.)whereby he asked all muslim males to pray it with jamaat,i.e. in the mosque.This can hardly be called an innovation as ALL sunnis agree that tarawih can be prayed alone as well and many people do too.So you see sunnis do not follow blindly at all.
Second is the azan.I can confirm for brother who--me that the words "AsSalatu khairum min Alnoum" were added in the azan for fajar only during the caliphate of hazrat Umar(r.a.).
Third is desert fox's comment that it's not the shias only who innovate but sunnis too.That sadly brother shair is true.I couldn't agree more.As predicted by our prophet Mohammed(pbuh)the muslims have done all the things that people of the book(jews and christians did).This is why we see so many stupid rasoomats and other foolish things being practiced by many muslims all over the world.One of them of course is asking dead people for help,qabar parasti etc.Another is ofcourse is the one pointed out by watcher in the 1st post of this thread.Though he's only mentioned a shia practice,similar things are done by sunnis unfortunately.These are both examples of things(wrongly)done by both shias and sunnis and I am sure there can be more examples of it as well.If the educated people among shias and sunnis could stop fighting between themselves may be we could together take on what is wrong with the muslim world in general!

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited October 20, 2000).]

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[quote]
Originally posted by Mariah:
So like people who go to darbaars and ziaratein are not totally wrong, because this is the main reason they go to these places to pray yes?
[/quote]

Mariah, on this particular aspect there are two different opinions, as I have already briefly mentioned. Some would say this is totally wrong, while some other scholars will present the opinion that pious people do have closer relationship with Allah because of their taqwa, even after they are no more in this world.

This does not mean that EVERYTHING that happens in these mazars and ziaratein is correct. I, as a sunni, believe that one can go to a mazar and offer fateha for the dead person (meaning to ask Allah to give even higher stature to this pious person). If I choose I can also say to the pious person (who is dead) to pray for me, so that Allah reduces my gunnah, solve my problems and strengthen my imaan. These are all concepts of sufiism, which are strongly denied (even rediculed) by wahabi scholars.

However, there are certain practices rampant in these mazars which must be condemned. These include asking the dead to help solve the problem themself. Certain acts of devotion, done in good faith, are also close to shirk and therefore one must be clear in the distinction.

A saint or a sufi is just a human being as are all the Prophets (PBUH), Imams (RA) and leaders of muslim ummah, and at no stage should we equate their stature to that of Allah.

If someone can not keep the balance, then for the sake of their imaan, it is strongly advised that they follow quran and sunnah, carry out the fard activities, refrain from evil deeds, propagate good deeds and, Insha Allah, they will be successful in the Day of Judgement.

Once again, I must emphasize that I have no dispute with those who disagree with these beliefs. Everyone has a right to believe what they feel has the strongest evidence.

Assalam O Alaikum!

23

[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
I distribute free needles to Drug Addicts in New York City (by they way, I am guilty of breaking NYState Law which forbids to distribute needles). Would my deed be a considered a Niaz? Or is it just a good deed (or a bad one) in your opinion?
[/quote]

Although I am sure there are other more qualified people here who can give a far more authentic interpretation of Islamic terminology, it is my understanding that 'niaz' refers to food items.

I can not comment whether what you do (needles) is a good or a bad deed.
Why do you distribute needles? Is it to avoid the spread of AIDS or something? If yes, then this will be classified as humantaranian help and probably will fall under good deeds. Then again, I don't know, because most of the people will be non-believers and there are many aspects to this issue. Better get the opinion of a scholar if you really want to know, or else, continue as per your own best judgement.

Adios!

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Thanks Prestine Yaar. I do it exactly for the reason you thought (to help combat spread of AIDS). Studies have shown that it has (clean needles) decreased the number of new infections among Drug Addicts. Although there is a lot more that needs to be done, with urban areas like NYC, diseases and other ailments are just too familiar. A friend of mine cares for infants infected with AIDS (crack babies), and it is such a sad sight. It breaks your heart.

In terms of religious ruling on such issues, I don’t think that any religion will be against any humanitarian deed, although people with ideological differences view this as an impediment to cure, and argue that free needles encourage or aid drug addiction and not necessarily cure the disease. I can understand that argument, but to deal with the problem at hand, I believe in doing “something” than not.

Thanks for your thoughts! You mentioned that most of them will be "non-believers". I don't know what to say to that except "AIDS does not discriminate" and the virus knows no religion or God.

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Quite true. A virus won’t distinguish between ppl of different beliefs and once someone has got AIDS, that will be the most unappropriate time to moralize.

Keep up the good work. Good Luck!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

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NY Ahmadi: *“Sometimes people loose the sight of a good deed and look for trivial reasons to appease and gratify their numinous or spirituality. Is shouldn’t be like this”.*

Ditto Ahmadi. With time people are diverging farther and further from the actual essence of the services.

There is a very thin line between morality and spirituality, the former being the activity directed towards mankind, the later towards God. Though both acts are interrelated, its inappropriate observance is simply called a ‘biddat’ or precisely a shirk.

These niaz, offer coverings on graves, matam, calling dead ones for help (e.g ya Ali maddad) and customs like that, has no place on the floor of a religion. Neither does it help mankind in anyway nor does it lift anyone, spiritually.

Allah says: Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper? [2:108] - so why not review our concrete and erroneous beliefs, which we inherited by our forefathers? why not we pray to that Only being and ask for His guidance and mercy, instead of making separate entities on the basis of such inconsistent rituals?

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited October 20, 2000).]

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my adress to all mullahs and waiz and sheikhs(not scholars. I consider fraudia, pristine, mariah, malik all scholar minds),

tar damanee pey sheikh hamaree na jaeeo
daman nichore dein to farashtey wuzu karen

shair.

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WATCH IT WATCH IT WATCHER !!!!!

1st u wr upsetng the hindus and now muslims as well. eh !!!!

full of mischeif, r'nt u?

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You guys have confused my post with something totally wrong. I am not trying to start a shia sunni nonsense here, please understand that. My opinion is that, Niaz if given should be given on and in the name of ALLAH ONLY!!! Asking for help is from Allah only and not from some dead person. I am not brushing all shias with this delimma, I shared with you an incedent that happened with me with a shia friend. I thought since we have allots of shia brothers on gupshup why not discuss this there. Because she kept on saying that Imams and prophets dead or alive can help you, and you can ASK them for help. THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG!!!

Let me respond post by post if you will please:

Desert Fox,

First of all how do you know that Hazrat Ali use to do this 1400 years ago?
2nd, if Hazrat Ali use to do this, whos name did he give niaz on? Allah’s or himself? or Mohammad?
Taravi, is either 20 rakah or 11. Sometimes the prophet prayed 20 and sometimes 11 so don’t bring that in please.
The other thing you mentioned about azan is totally wrong and I do not approve of it. I don’t think any muslim would.

Again some of you said niaz is ok and should be given ONLY on and in the name of ALLAH and not some dead imam or prophet.
The only 3 thing that help him after he is dead. I will list them soon inshallah.

Shair brother take it easy. Dicussing something in a healthy manner is good. If you provoke me and “judge” me for trying to start a fight between shia and sunni, brother you are totally wrong. You said:
assalato khairumminanaum was NOT a part of Azan during Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)'s time. It was later added by the second Kaliph Hazrat Omar.
It is a “bidaat” in religion.

I know it is a bidah, could you please provide some references i e from hadith or quran etc. Thanks.

Farhina, what does ya ali madad mean? Oh Ali help us? IF sunni say it does that mean its ok for all Muslims to say it? How do you make “ya Ali Madad” a part of Islam? WHY? HOW?

So you think, even if a person is dead he can still help you? When Allah in quran asks you many times “ask me directly for help” why would you go to someone else than? Its shirk to say that "oh since this Imam can help you, I should ask him for help and not Allah.

The PROPHET IS DEAD, believe it.

Mariah, building darbars and mezars is totally wrong and against the teachings of Islam.
People there do some stupid things such as prostrating and they give food on the name of that dead person, which is WRONG! No where did Prophet asks us to do that. And no where did Allah asks us to do such things.
They are the example of pre-Islamic era, when the pagans use to say we believe in Allah, but we associate these statues of with him as to assist Allah in his daily universal activties i.e, rising and setting of the sun, moon, rain etc. Those are pre-islamic “RITUALS” and are totally against the teachings of the Islam according to QURAN and sunnah of prophet.

Again, I hope you guys do not take me wrong. All I did is share an incedent with you. I am not trying to lable anyone right or wrong. If something is wrong and you know it is wrong according to Quran and sunnah. We should all condemn it. The reason I brought this up is that friend of mine was delibratly saying that a dead person can help you and you do not have to ask Allah for help.
I do not mean to disrespect your believes what ever they may be. But, I do not like it when people corrupt the beliefs of my religion without any basis from Quran or Sunnah.
I have a great deal of respect for all Imams including Hazrat Ali. I have great respect for other Owliyaa. I just keep the respect to a manner that does not exceed to something that Allah has ask us not to do in quran.
I have no intention of creating fights between shia or sunni. Let me make this clear to you, I do not belong to any of this groups that you are labeling me!!! I follow the path of Quran and Sunnah and I think groups came to existence after the death of prophet and they have no basis in Islam. A Muslims job is to keep the Islamic ummah from dividing!

If there is a misunderstanding of some kind among the Muslims, it is responsibility of everyone to address that. Just because you think “oh no this will creat fight and non sense like that and we should just leave it alone” that is totally wrong and I don’t think you as you call your self Muslims be like that. Anyone that is doing something wrong and you have the knowledge that he or she is doing something wrong against the teachings of Islam, you should humbly tell them and ask them to stop, because what ever they might be doing is not consider the part of Islam.
Shirk or associating partners( i.e, asking for help from dead HUMANS rather than Allah) with Allah is wrong and Allah asked you many times in QURAN!

PS: Please don’t take this as if I have some bad intentions against you. All I am asking is that these matters are serious that shirk is a serious matter in Islam and we should all address it in the light of QURAN and sunnah. Thank you. I hope you all understand.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited October 20, 2000).]

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yaar watcher, take it easy bhai merey. dekho hum sab ka alag alg viewpoint hosakta hay, aur agar meree koee baat tumhey buree lagee hay to mazarat khoa hoon. Now chill betey. By the way, did you come up with this name after watching the movie "The Watcher"?

mein shair to naheen.

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If you all have different “viewpoints” than where is the authentic Islam viewpoint? There is ONLY ONE viewpoint in Islam and that is viewpoint of QURAN and sunnah. Any other made up view point is wrong.

Read the question in my post in the last few lines.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

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**
ho halqae yarañ to baresham kee tarah narm
razme haq o batil ho to faulad hay momin.
**

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You should atleast try to act like that, if you promote it.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Beautiful words they are, are you like that?

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

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well i try to be like that. I am a normal and simple person, I dont try to be unique like some people. here is another one, this one is for you watcher,

tar damanee pey sheikh hamaree na jaeeo
daman nichore dein to farishtay wuzu karein

adaab.

[This message has been edited by shair30 (edited October 20, 2000).]

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Yes you're right, it is Shirk to associate anything with God. Which by the way is the Biggest sin of all.

Other sins can still be forgiven eventually if deemed appropriate for some particular reason, but shirk is completely unacceptable.

Forget about post-death, even during your time here, mortals can only assist in trying to make conditions better (where you need help), they cannot reverse something if it is not intended to happen a certain way.

After death, the soul has begun its own journey accroding to one's deeds, the body is in the grave. And only your Creator can affect or turn around a state of affairs or circumstances if He so wills.

Instead of asking a corpse for help, one should spend the same energy in asking for help and forgiveness from the Lord to whom we shall all return one day.

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Only few people understood my point??!! Thank you elmo.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

That is progress well made.

V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

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Elmo,
Shirk is a big bad sin! And we(muslims)who follow the Quran are totally not into it!
Niaz is to please god not Hazrat Ali!

Watcher you are starting to create a rift between the muslim unity on this site!

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desert fox,
just ignore watcher, he is not worth your time buddy. arz kiya hay:

jal giya
burnol lagaeyay!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

shair.

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its people like him who spread false rumors about shia..still i know many many scholers who once were sunni and became shia..shia strictly go by Quran and Ahle-bait..thats all we need