Who is the bigger sinner

Lifestyle Relationships
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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

There was one post stating Lota more benign than paper.

Now that's the kind of discussion that can be a positive outcome. Bring out the positives. Address where improvement can be made.

Misinterpreting the intent of the OP and focusing on this as attack on religion is counter productive.

As has been state earlier per capita there is no comparison. The west pollutes more than its share.

Adjusted for income my suspicious is rich Hindus in India pollute more than their share. Don't walk. Don't take public transportation. Buy Mercedes and other gas guzzlers. So per capita there carbon footprint probably rivals their western counterparts.

That's the theme I take out of this.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Maybe bully was wrong choice of word to use. Pattern of silencing opposing viewpoints by getting personal would have been better way to frame it. (And none of this was directed at me - got no complaints on that front)

Hope folks can take something positive from these discussions and spread awareness re environmental issues. As for water, that will be the next reason for war. So water is a precious commodity. The more folks at the top use it less there is for the little guy.

Reduce
Reuse
Recycle

Hope we can turn this thread into discussion of important issues. Since we have eyeballs here anyway. Otherwise environment threads don't get any visits or inputs. Which is a shame.

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Can I get a tl;dr?

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Dear Knight30, Southie, Bella and others.

This thread i opened, needs your attention, unfortunately you are not answering…please have a look.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/all-views/639675-drivers-of-environmental-pollution.html

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Southie, dlaczego nie lubisz muzułmanów? :(

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

I will answer a few response, It has been professed by Prophet(SWT) himself that in future there will be many muslims but very little Islam, many people will call themselves muslims but not act like muslims, he showed by example to live a life with a small humble foot print Aisha (RA)mentioned that they some times did not light a stove for weeks and subsisted only on dates and water, Saudi prince Abdulaziz was building a 85,000.00 sq ft house in LA , he claims to be a muslim, does all the pillars requirement, but does he follow the example of Islamic life.

TLK I am not confronting religion, I am confronting the easy validation, Islam has described sins in comparison so it is recommended that we see it in this light which is bigger sins, showing cleavage is a sin, but slander is bigger sin than adultery, so when a staunch so called muslim poster calls Southie Gay, and someone else a Shaitan she without doubt as per Hadith is bigger sinner then an adulteress, the proof of slander is in writing.

Muslims are commanded to guard their tounges, if we openly get abrasive and foul mouthed do we deserve to be respected as good muslims, or more likely we pray for personal gains as foulmouthed people have no fear of God.

Southie I apologise for the bigotry and ignorance of some from our community,you seem to be an awesome human being.

Again I respect actions and not words, If you are sincerely religious you will be kind, generous and a good member of society. If you say a lot of prayers and hurt people, the environment, cheat and lie you don't need to be respected.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Subhana wa Ta'ala (SWT) appears after the name of Allah (SWT) and not after the name of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

So according to you it's easy to validate who is a bigger sinner. You are comparing showing cleavage vs slander, with slander being worse. But why can't the one showing cleavage also be guilty of slander. In that case that person is a bigger sinner. And like that you can go on and on and add more sins to see who is worse.

See how messed up that is? That is why we don't have the power and ability to validate who is worse.

Furthermore, nobody called Southie gay or Shaitaan. Read the context those words were used in, instead the word on itself.

See all of your threads result in this, in judging who is a worse muslim, and it's always the the more conservative people according to you who are the worst. The one who according to you pray 5 times a day and follow hijab etc. Because according to your logic they have many other flaws which people who are more liberal don't seem to have.

You always know how to put it in such a way that you appear to be sympathetic, while your actions show the opposite.

Don't you get tired of yourself? Dumb rethorical question, ofcourse you don't, otherwsie you wouldnt repeat this behavior every month.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

1) Others may disagree, but I see a difference in the concept of "bigger sin" and "bigger sin." The former is more specific and confined and the latter is an overall judgment of a person's life, character, and intentions. The latter is more like a finality and we don't have that insight into a person.

2) If various ahadith have given us some idea about the ranking of sins as to which is bigger or lesser, we forget that the "key" to the actions is intention. Knight keeps talking about action, action, action, and how they speak louder than words. Yes, that's true that actions speak louder than words, BUT your intention can either make or break your actions. Your intentions are the prerequisite to even having your actions accepted and if intentions are sound; the actions are sound. Since humans can only witness actions and can't look into heart to determine neeyat and attitude, our judgment will be lacking.

Example: You have two people. A bearded Muslim who litters the environment. A clean-shaved Muslim who picks up the trash thrown by the former and properly disposes it. While doing this "good deed," he harbors pride toward the former Muslim. He thinks his good deed alone makes him superior to the former Muslim because it is helping so many people and animals and jinns by giving them a cleaner environment. He thinks that the former Muslim is a hypocrite that MUST have grown his beard only as "show" and to receive elevated status in society. Now to onlookers ....who cannot read hearts like Allah can.....the guy picking up the trash must be saint and the beardie who drove off is a sinner.

A) Now in this example, we cannot so easily say that the former man committed the bigger sin. For all we know, Allah may not have accepted the good deed of the latter man because his intentions were tainted by pride. Maybe in Allah's eyes this man committed a hidden "shirk" by playing God and believing he knows the overall judgment of a person.

B) Meanwhile the bearded Muslim was in a hurry and had tossed the garbage without thinking. He prays humbly and asks Allah to forgive him for all his sins....even the ones he did deliberately and without thinking....and humbly asks Him to make him a better human being in all ways.

What if on that given day, Allah forgives the former man and erases the sin from his account whilst the latter one was neither rewarded NOR forgiven. The human onlookers have only action to go by, so their understanding is limited. Allah knew better that the former man's prayer and even his beard were done with greater humility than the latter's clean-up of the environment.

Point I'm trying to make is that it ain't so simple or easy to determine at one give point....which action or lack thereof is the "bigger sin"......and to determine who is the "bigger sinner" is even tougher.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

I don't get why we are excusing people just because they wear religious garb. It is just a dress piece. Plenty of criminals walking around wear it. Your actions speak way louder than words. Hence the term hypocrite, and how they're looked down upon in the Quran and how Allah warns us of those people in the Quran.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Interestingly this thread has now carried to 15 pages. Probably because this debate is the very reason why muslims are such a mess these days. Everyone is worried about their clothes, not their actions. And then we look like idiots in the world.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Guilty as charged

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

It wouldn't be the first time that you read without comprehension, because if you actually did you would have known that noone is is excusing people who wear religious garbs.
The problem with people like you is that when you see a muslim having a religious look (i.e. beard, hijab) you expect them to be flawless and perfect in their actions aswell. They may not sin AT ALL according to you. Forgetting that that is something that all muslims should strive to. Regardless of you covering yourself or not, or having a beard or not.
As soon as you caught them doing certain things wrong you will label them as hypocrites and what not.
And that is when we get lame comparisons of those 'hypocrit religious' people vs people who may be 'looser' in their lifestyle but atleast are not guilty of the sins that the former group commits.

And this thread is still on page 9 on my laptop, 6 pages tumne khud se hi saath laga liye. As for your last line: speak for yourself, thank you very much.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Bardo zabawny Sherbatsky! To jest Pan Southie teraj. Ma knighted Perez mom Punjabi Przyjaciele!

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

  1. When a person has the mentality that, “My worship of Allah is sufficient and I don’t need to help His creation”…he is smug in his belief that huqqoq ul Allah (rights of Allah) alone should be fulfilled.

  2. when a person who is liberal or lax in following Allah’s commands but believes that it’s more important or sufficient for them to help Allah’s creation…they are smug in their belief that Huqooq ul ibad alone are sufficient.

  3. So you have two groups of people, who are either unintentionally or deliberately, omitting one or the other. They both are wrong, both are deficient. We are supposed to fulfill huqooq ul Allah and huqooq ul ibad to the best of our ability.

Op asked who is the bigger sinner … A family that observes its rituals, condemns alcohol/showing of skin/having premarital relationships but don’t protect the environment…versus…a family that is liberal but is active in saving the environment.

***Op said that the religious family wouldn’t know sustainability if it hit them. So, is it possible that this family requires more awareness and educating? Perhaps if they were gently guided through religious references, they’d be more cautious.

***Now if the religious family mends their error and starts protecting the environment, they will receive reward for BOTH their ritualistic ibadat and ALSO their efforts to help makind/animals etc.

***If the liberal family continue to dismiss the importance of ritual ibadat and following other commands of Allah and focus predominantly on helping mankind…they will get reward but it will mostly be in the area of huqooq ul ibaad and not huqooq al Allah.

****If the OP wants to make the obvious point to all of us that Muslims have to follow both types of huqooq…then…HELLO…the same “logic” applies to the liberal family as well. Liberal family needs to do both as well.

***If OP thinks its wrong for Muslims to only fulfill Allah’s rights not His creations…then Liberal family is also wrong in thinking “Allah I am gonna break your drinking prohibition cuz you see I planted a field of trees.”

But Allah knows best if the cleaner does his cleaning with humility or contempt …and if the polluter made his mess deliberately or without thinking. Both the liberal and religious family are bargaining with Allah it seems, both are showing disobedience, both are judging each other…and maybe OP is hoping we’ll provide validation by saying the religious family is more doomed. Religion was injected first by OP and reinforced by his anecdotes and ahadith references.

And the Saudi Prince does not represent the average Muslim whose life is much tougher and restricted. :rolleyes:

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Just read Knight 30 post. Thank you for the kind words.

While the context was clarified, it is ironic that in a society where gays are ridiculed and called sinners, a staunch believer would use it nonchalantly to describe cheesy behavior. I accept the clarification. But I also see how Knight 30 makes a legitimate case abt use of said word. If one as a religious person thinks being gay is a sin one should NOT use it loosely. Use cheesy for cheesy.

thanks again knight 30 .

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Yes, let's zero-in on the use of the word gay so as to deflect from the OP's earlier, mass judging of Muslims. It can be argued that calling people hypocrites is worse than the word "gay" especially in the context I used it in. While the former is an attack on an individual's entire character and their intentions and deeds......the latter was strictly an attack on the TONE of your recent posts, Southie, not all your posts and certainly NOT on your character. Anyhow I apologize for the offense. But since Knight has pounced upon this technicality, go ahead and run with it. It's sweet of you to to duel for the Knight so he gets his bearings in the thread.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

RV stop. Just stop. I was clarifying to Le how Knight could interpret ur use of the word gay. If I wanted to focus on it I would have done so earlier. By pointing out u shouldn't have used the word as proxy for cheesy. But I let it go. But when I saw Le s post to knight I decided to set the record straight. No one is running with anything.

Enough of this waste of time. Be positive and propose solution to a serious problem - climate change. Jesus Christ. Had hoti hai bhai.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Anyway for those interested, pwner has opened a nice thread on environmental drivers. Join us. Already we have brainstormed quite a few solutions.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

Can you point out any instance where anyone is excusing those who pray/grow a beard/wear hijab etc? I'd say the reality of the matter is quite the opposite. They're actually picked on for all kinds of things that nobody would even care about if it were someone more liberal.

Maybe, but the trend I see from this topic that would make us look like idiots is more that we'll point out a flaw (or more) found in someone who is outwardly religious and then this is used to undermine religious duties, i.e. obligatory acts to the point where it's used as a justification for not fulfilling them. When people who drink, dress in a revealing manner, indulge in illicit relationships are discussed then we'll be reminded again and again that we shouldn't judge them and judgement is only for Allah. But when someone who does something wrong and is also known to pray then people are quick to judge and say that their acts of worship aren't worth anything. At the very least, they'll be absolved of them, even if there is no other reward for it. If anything, this type of attitude would qualify someone as a munaafiq more than praying but also sinning on the side.

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Re: Who is the bigger sinner

I have a simple question where in Islam does it say not being environmentally conscious is a sin?