Agreed, may Allah increase his knowledge, Ameen.
Summa Aameen. Howz the family?
usres -
ofcourse arabic existed before islam and ofcourse all words come from some root or other; so this is nothing unique to the word muslim.
The normal meaning of the term muslim is a person who follows islam. it is used synonimously with muhammadans, mohammedans, moslems etc. right or wrong lingusitically, that is the general usage.
Dictionary.com defines muslimas an adherent of Islam and as “of or pertaining to religion law and civilization of Islam”.
so when you say muslims existed before prophet Mohammed and Islam came about, it is incorrect going by the broadly understood meaning of the term muslim.
It also wrong in a more important respect which is that the jews and christians do not accept being referred to as muslims.
There are no normal or abnormal meanings or linguistic meanings of muslim. Its one who submits to God, plain and simple. Dictionary.com did not exist when religions came about. Islam is not tied to the worship of any human personality unlike Christianity or centered on ethnicity as in the case of Jews. Islam is about submitting to God, anyone who does that can be termed a muslim irrespective of what dictionary.com or CNN says. This is the difference in understanding what Islam really means and understanding it from media outlets. Your misconception stems from the fact that you associate muslim with a particular movement, which you think is Islam. Muslim is not a Pronoun unlike Christian or Jew. Present day Jews or Chrsitians cannot be refered to as muslim simply because they are not muslim and do not submit to the will of God. Their beliefs are personality centric now and hence they have to be identified by that persona.
Now please take a hint and stop trying to tell me what I am because I know better than you. I have answered sufficiently for any rational person to understand the true meaning of the word MUSLIM. You are welcome to proceed at your own insanity or stubbornness. You should realize when your opinion or perspective even matters.
Re: Did the Prophets before Mohammad (pbuh) drink?
If you say the word has a meaning then it has to have a specific meaning and NOT whatever you wish it to be to suit your current argument.
If you didn’t like the dictionary.com definition, then look up oxford Dictionary (here) which also says the same thing, namely
muslim = (noun) follower of islam
(adj) relating to Muslims or Islam
Just like you don’t like to be told what you are, the jews and christians don’t like to be told they are muslims either - whether current day or in past.
NOWHERE is there a definition of the word muslim to be a follower of god in a the generic sense as you claim. If it is in some arabic please do let us know if you wish but also remember we are writing here in english.
Finally, you may also want to look up the preamble to the Pakistan constitution which roundly and squarely rebuts what you say:
“Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;”
Are you claiming that the constitution of Pakistan misused the term Muslims or that they expect jews and christians to also order their lives as set out in the Quran and Sunnah?
Yaar I wish I was capable of writing in Grade-4 English but unfortunately I am not.
This should help:
People who followed Jesus Christ PBUH = People who submitted to the will of God = Muslim
People who made Jesus PBUH into God = Christians = Majority of todays Christians
Hence,
Todays Christians ARE NOT EQUAL to Muslims.
One of major reasons for Quran being revealed was to correct the TAINTED beliefs of Christians and Jews.
Anyway I can’t convince someone who does not want to be convinced or takes pride in trying not to. I ain’t here to win an argument just to clarify what is wrong with what you think. I’ve done that much and have no further response.
It might be another shocker for you to know that everyone is born a muslim. Yup. We are all born in perfect submission to God then we decide to or are taught to submit otherwise. Now don’t get depressed after reading this.
Re: Did the Prophets before Mohammad (pbuh) drink?
^ upto what period in history do you claim christians where muslims?
Statements such as islam came about to correct errors in christianity etc are arrogant and insult them.
Anyway question being did prophets before Mohammed drank, guess the answer would be some of them did
Yaar I wish I was capable of writing in Grade-4 English but unfortunately I am not.
It's ok ...just come back after a couple of years by which time you would have achieved that proficiency
People who followed Jesus Christ PBUH = People who submitted to the will of God = Muslim
People who made Jesus PBUH into God = Christians = Majority of todays Christians
Hence,
Todays Christians ARE NOT EQUAL to Muslims.
One of major reasons for Quran being revealed was to correct the TAINTED beliefs of Christians and Jews.
Anyway I can't convince someone who does not want to be convinced or takes pride in trying not to. I ain't here to win an argument just to clarify what is wrong with what you think. I've done that much and have no further response.
It might be another shocker for you to know that everyone is born a muslim. Yup. We are all born in perfect submission to God then we decide to or are taught to submit otherwise. Now don't get depressed after reading this.
bla bla bla
your definition of muslim does not make any sense, is rejected by all dictionaries, is inconsistent with Pakistan's own constitution and the only reason for you co-opting christians and jews as muslims is to somehow take credit of antiquity for a recently created religion. I don't know why you seek such antique legitimacy but, if that's what makes you feel good, go ahead.
Just know this - while you call islam a corrected version of christianity, christianity call islam a mutated version ....so your feeling is not at all mutual.
Finally, since your definition of muslim is wrong the pasrt about everyone born muslim is ridiculous and invalidated.
It's ok ...just come back after a couple of years by which time you would have achieved that proficiency
Nice comeback.
bla bla bla
your definition of muslim does not make any sense, is rejected by all dictionaries, is inconsistent with Pakistan's own constitution and the only reason for you co-opting christians and jews as muslims is to somehow take credit of antiquity for a recently created religion. I don't know why you seek such antique legitimacy but, if that's what makes you feel good, go ahead.
Just know this - while you call islam a corrected version of christianity, christianity call islam a mutated version ....so your feeling is not at all mutual.
Finally, since your definition of muslim is wrong the pasrt about everyone born muslim is ridiculous and invalidated.
It makes sense to those who understand sensible. Hey! I am happy that you feel happy imagining that you are winning a huge debate. Carry on. Please apply to universities in the capacity of an Islamic studies professor, you just might get selected. Otherwise what a loss it would be. Such a waste of talent. Enjoyed educating you. Ciao.
Re: Did the Prophets before Mohammad (pbuh) drink?
^ no it does not make any sense and yeah sure, looking at what is passing for mullahs, imams and 'scholas of islam' these days, anyone else will do a better job.
I have no issues being educated by anyone, including you but please....stop telling your students that all dictionaries are wrong and that you know better!
^ upto what period in history do you claim christians where muslims?
Statements such as islam came about to correct errors in christianity etc are arrogant and insult them.
Anyway question being did prophets before Mohammed drank, guess the answer would be some of them did
guess based on what?
Not true. Prophet Mohammad started Islam only in the 6th or 7th century. This is well documented, so don't even try.
It is agreed by all muslims that there is no Islam without Quran which itself was revealed to Mohammad - Obviously therefore, even going by muslim legend and beliefs, there were no muslims before him
Where did you learn what mulims believe?
I think Get smart is planted/sent on this earth to derail a thread...with baseless tangential arguments!!!!!!!:D
^ no it does not make any sense and yeah sure, looking at what is passing for mullahs, imams and 'scholas of islam' these days, anyone else will do a better job.
I have no issues being educated by anyone, including you but please....stop telling your students that all dictionaries are wrong and that you know better!
Google Dr. Zakir Naik. I am sure you can email your smart questions to him. As per having limited knowledge on Islam, keep it to yourself. If you like to stay here, respect others and their beliefs, otherwise, just Buzz off.
Just a simple question though, why in hinduism, they have Five million god & goddesses? How do you really keep track of them? Go figure it out first, then come here and post your smart comments.
Google Dr. Zakir Naik. I am sure you can email your smart questions to him. As per having limited knowledge on Islam, keep it to yourself. If you like to stay here, respect others and their beliefs, otherwise, just Buzz off. Just a simple question though, why in hinduism, they have Five million god & goddesses? How do you really keep track of them? Go figure it out first, then come here and post your smart comments.
Who said I have limited knowledge of Islam? I have no knowledge of Islam other than that Muhammad started it in the 6th century Arabia, you worship Allah and have many castes / sects that do not get along with each other due to some minor variation in belief.
You should respect others' belief too. When you start calling christians and jews muslims even though they hate it, that is not very respectful on your part. Rather it is simple insecurity and a weak attempt at acquiring antiquity. Why?
Hindus don't have to keep track of any gods and goddesses. Why do you keep track of Allah?
I think Get smart is planted/sent on this earth to derail a thread...with baseless tangential arguments!!!!!!!:D
you said it, not me. If Allah planted me here to ask you guys simple questions, may be you should try and answer instead of attacking the messenger
Who said I have limited knowledge of Islam? I have no knowledge of Islam other than that Muhammad started it in the 6th century Arabia, you worship Allah and have many castes / sects that do not get along with each other due to some minor variation in belief.
You should respect others' belief too. When you start calling christians and jews muslims even though they hate it, that is not very respectful on your part. Rather it is simple insecurity and a weak attempt at acquiring antiquity. Why?
Hindus don't have to keep track of any gods and goddesses. Why do you keep track of Allah?
Because we only worship one god (Allah SWT), on the other hand you dont even know, who you follow, you dont even know the names of your gods? do u? since you have limited knowledge, just keep it to yourself, dont make a fool out of yourself and your 5 million gods.
P.S isnt it easy to worship one god, instead of 5 million, lol go figuer it out!
Re: who is Muslim ? in theory and practice .. (split discussion)
Peace Get smart
I have not been around for a while, but there is a lot of action here. I understand your perspective and I think you deserve a bit more than what people are giving you on this thread.
Firstly, I think a god starting point is this:
The Kingdom of God/Heaven on Earth is the promise and the manifestation of God’s Law on Earth, a dominion run in accordance to the Divine Regulations. Muslims believe the promise of the Comforter to be in the person of Muhammad (SAW) from older scripture. The Qur’an makes a distinction between Muslim, Nasara, and Yahood. Bani Israeel are known as the Children of Israel, which is the scriptural definition of the Jewish nation including Nestorians, Essenes and Ebionites (Semetic Christians).
When we say the believers of the past were ‘Muslim’ we refer to the verb ‘To be Muslim’ we do not refer to the noun part of the definition. The noun is of course is as you state it. A person who believes in the Creed of Islam is a Muslim.
Islam was only named i.e. the noun only came to existence when Allah (SWT) mentioned it in the Qur’an and favoured it for our course of life. When that statement is made any person who submits to God will bring himself to the favoured course for us. Anyone who does not has lost the purpose for being a People of the Book which is to accept the whole of the Book.
Within the scriptures i.e. New Testament we can see that Christians were made to alter their beliefs not only from the Jews but also pre-‘crufixion’ is very different from post-‘crucifixion’. Just as Christians believe themselves to be part of the legacy of Jewish scripture Muslims believe themselves to be part of the legacy of the two of them, and the Sabiens too.
You will notice that the Way of Life has not been given any explicit name in the Old or New Testaments. The people are defined by their race rather than their affiliations. So essentially we need to consider what it means to be a Muslim rather than looking for the ‘noun’. If we were to compare the term Muslim to what we have with Christian or Jew we will see that the oldest of the three is a nation, the second are affiliated to Christ (AS) [Nasara] whereas the Jews rejected him. The term Christian therefore not only is it a new term but it distinguishes the Jew who does not believe in Christ from a Jew who does. However, all Christians are not Jewish (which is why the Romans coined this term) so there is a problem here. It is actually more accurate to say that Christians are people who follow Jewish Law (10 Commandments) without the ritual aspects of it, and at the same time believe in Christ.
By this definition Muslims are those people who follow Jewish law accept Christ (AS) and Muhammad (SAW), without the ritual aspects of both these two orders because we have been given a new set of rituals to observe without compromising the core belief structure of the original Jewish … rather Abrahamic Law.
Our Surah Fatihah - is a supplication to God to keep us on the straight path, which differs from the path taken by the zealous Jews and different from the path taken by the over flexible Christians. Mention of these two peoples as ideologies to avoid are ingrained in our rites of worship.
Islam for that matter is described in the Old Testament as not a thing, but a condition, it is described as the Kingdom of God. That is Islam because Islam means to submit to God, doing so acknowledges God as King and when a whole people do it … it creates a Kingdom. Shari’ah is the legislative element to this and Islam is the internal condition of this.
So you are correct in saying that Islam did not exist before Muhammad (SAW) but that is only because a whole nation were never brought a complete message. However, the people are at fault because they never allowed themselves to be guided. The priesthood were often as loggerheads with the prophets, indicating that handing down of religion was not being done in the correct manner, or else there would be no disagreement in the priests and prophets.
However, your argument about Christians and Jews rejecting the idea that their predecessors were Muslim is not a valid one. Christ (AS) is more a right to Muslims than he is for Christians. Also the legacy of Christ (AS) was supposed to be taken up by Cephas (Simon Peter) not Paul.
Re: who is Muslim ? in theory and practice .. (split discussion)
Get Smart
Are you ummm? Your writing style is similar to him.
Re: who is Muslim ? in theory and practice .. (split discussion)
^^ he is using multiple nicks such as aam Aadhmi also.
Who said I have limited knowledge of Islam? I have no knowledge of Islam other than that Muhammad started it in the 6th century Arabia, you worship Allah and have many castes / sects that do not get along with each other due to some minor variation in belief.
You should respect others' belief too. When you start calling christians and jews muslims even though they hate it, that is not very respectful on your part. Rather it is simple insecurity and a weak attempt at acquiring antiquity. Why?
Hindus don't have to keep track of any gods and goddesses. Why do you keep track of Allah?
Sure you have no knowledge of Islam but keep telling muslims what they believe! What a joke!
We love all the sect people and christians and jews.....the people who believe same God...!!
Hidus are different....but we still like them for being human.