Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Again.. we cannot say hes not everywhere. I again say he's everywhere and by everywhere if you define it as some physical place then thats your definition. Everywhere to me has no direction. Everywhere means everywhere. Theres not a single place or even an inch of a place in not just our galaxy but however many galaxies there are where Allah is not present. I'm not limiting his presence to any one place, neither am i saying thats he's beyond a certain point. When i brought the topic of Jesus a.s and muhammad pbuh, i was told that it was irrelative to the topic in hand. I fail to understand why..since Jesus a.s is taken to one specific direction and Muhammad pbuh was taken to some specific direction beyond which he pbuh saw God. Now, either God is at one place, or i fail to understand your belief. Again, if you dont want to discuss that, thats totally fine.

I consider myself Muslim and i'm a student of deen e islam. Our basic beliefs are the same. I believe in the same exact Allah you believe in. It may be that i might be wrong at some place.. and it may also be that you might be at wrong too at some point. What's wise is to read another person's pov in a calm manner and try to think about it before passing judgement.

It has been my point that Allah is everywhere. I said that the orthodox muslims by their beliefs are supposedly believing Him to be sitting on 4th heaven or beyond a certain point. How is it that he's not everywhere and he's not somewhere. Why is it that you're thinking of the term 'everywhere' as some finite. For once, can we not think beyond our understanding of the term 'everywhere'?. It's amazing how for every belief you have already made up your mind that this is how it is because your scholar/s have said so. You need proof or approval of your scholars to adjust your claim but you wont see it yourself from the book of Allah. I gave you verse where Allah says that where ever you turn, you will see the face of Allah(him being everywhere). I'm not going to give you any evidence about whether any of your scholar believe it to be so or not. Quranic proof should be good enough. What i need from you is to show me from Quran where Allah says hes not everywhere and hes not somewhere.. and then reconcile it from your belief of Allah being beyond a certain point.

God has no beginning and no end. Hes beyond time. He is nearer to us than our jugular vein.. he is the noor of the heavens and the earth.. eyes does not reach him, he reaches the eyes...where ever you turn, you will see the face of Allah. Allah has no dimension. Why can he not be everywhere(with the definition of infinite space.. where ever space ends.. and whatever is the beginning of whatever after, even there is god, since hes got no beginning or end).

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Sure he is sitting on his Throne, but we are talking about if he is everywhere or not. He is the King of the Kings, Allah is everywhere. This is what I'm sure, because you experience this when you are about to manifest the attributes of Allah in yourself. You feel like someone is directing you...

Psyah my friend,

you left the first verse untouched ;) "It was not you who threw, but it was Allah who threw"...Didn't Allah use the Prophet (saw) when the Prophet (saw) threw? > can you follow me? <

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Aqal Mein Jo Ghir Gaya La-Intiha Kiyoon Ker Hoa
Jo Samajh Mein Aa Gaya Phir Wo Khuda Kiyoon Ker Hoa

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace Bigboi

I follow you before you thought of asking the question about whether I follow you ... LOL ... You see "we have to keep everything in balance" ... Are you really saying Allah is everywhere? Or are you saying something else? Because if you are really saying He is everywhere then you can't really be saying He is Over His Throne ... And if you are really saying He is over His Throne you can't really be saying He is everywhere ... These are literally conflicting ...

You have to use "Ta'wil" - Interpretation ... or avoid any interpretation for it to fit.

To elaborate on earlier .... to say "Allah is everywhere or to say He is locatable anywhere is to CONFINE Him ... Allah is not confined by His creation ... So He cannot BE everywhere and He cannot BE somewhere ... not in the sense that we understand the space around us.

The **Hand and hand **discussion is a subset of this higher level discussion ... we can go in to that if you wish ... but I think it is pointless if we don't first understand this higher level topic first.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace Mr.Popat

Do you believe directions are part of the creation of Allah (SWT)? Or is it your belief that direction existed pre-eternally? I personally believe Space and Time were created by Allah ... So I neither hold that a single direction locates Allah (SWT) nor all directions together can locate Allah (SWT) ... Everywhere is the collective of all directions ... so if any one direction cannot locate Allah (SWT) then all of them put together cannot do the job either ...

Then we are forced to talk again about Jesus (AS) as being taken "up" ... I've explained this before "up" here has to be interpreted - it is not something that I hold to be in accordance with cardinal physical directions, but metaphysical directions ... it seems you are only acknowledging the world of spiritual metaphor or the physical world ... but there is also a quasi-spiritual-physical world or domain of existence that requires "translation" to occur ...

If we walk up a ladder **we going up "physically" ... If we are **raised in rank **we are going up "symbolically or metaphorically or in spiritual status" and if **we ascend to Allah then we are essentially promoted through whatever means to another form of existence which typically translates to travelling ... just as we have the concept of "travelling through time" we can also travel through levels of existence - i.e. move from the apparent to the hidden - hidden to apparent - As the angels and jinn can move - but there are other levels too - these can be journeys that start off through a physical carrier thus taking upward before translating out of this level of existence. So in this case - ascending to Allah (SWT) for Isa (AS) means both in status and in essence he was caused to leave this world for another the nature of which we do not know - each layer transgressed moving further away from the condensed form of this worldly existence is in effect moving closer to Allah (SWT) ... but closer in that quasi sense ...

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace Bigboi and Mr. Popat

I think we are getting side tracked in the discussions about "which is the correct view" rather than stepping back and answering "what is the view of the Ahl-us-Sunnah-Wa-Al-Jamaa and what is not"

To clarify the orthodox Muslims do not believe in any human way of thinking that:

That Allah (SWT) is everywhere
That Allah (SWT) is over the Arsh

If you think that about the Muslim orthodoxy then you are mistaken ... in reality we try to refrain from such "confinement" and we rely on the idea that "Allah (SWT) is not encapsulated, but He encapsulates all things" ...

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Thanks for your detailed reply. Though, none of it makes sense when you try to reconcile the concept and belief of Isa ascension and Muhammad pbuh journey. What you believe is your own made up belief about quasi-spiritual-physical world and all that. For a muslim, it is essential for him to provide his proofs from Quran and then say this is the belief.. knowing that whatever meaning you take it out to be of any quranic verse does not interfere or contradict with any other verse of Quran.

Allah says that hes all knowing and all hearing. Allah also says to call upon me and i will answer. Allah says hes close to you than your jugular vein(showing nearness).. If i was in some desert of Africa, Allah would hear me the same way if i was at any other place of the world. If this is true then Allah is believed to be everywhere.

Now, if i was in space and/ or any of the furthest planet you could think of and i call upon God, he must also be present there too. At this point, i'm taking everywhere to be infinite.. with no stopping at the furthest east, west , north or south. Allah is said to be the noor of the earth and the heavens and everything that is in between. Allah says that your eyes does not reach him, he reaches the eyes. He is nafees. He is paak from all the flaws. When we see something, the light touches an object and our eyes are able to see. With God, hes so nafees and paak that his noor is everywhere and our eyes cannot see him.

It is very unrealistic to believe that there is any place in the milky way (how ever many there are), where there is no presence of Allah.

We have in front of us 2 examples where human beings have 'travelled' towards god. We have infront of us Allah's saying that 'it was not you who threw, but it was him who threw'. We have infront of us quranic verse saying 'where ever you turn, you will see the face of Allah'. Help me understand which direction was Jesus(as) taken to? Why that specific direction? On one hand you say, hes not everywhere but hes not somewhere either.. and on another we find 2 instances where humans left this physical world to meet allah.

If hes not everywhere, then thats not Allah. Whoever is everywhere is Allah. Theres not a place you can hide where there's not Allah.

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Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?

[quote=““psyah””]

Peace Brother Psyah,

By saying ‘God’ is everywhere, is this term falls in catergory of ‘Shirk’?

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

^

Why is this shirk? How come you have this thought?

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Obviously when somebody will say 'God is everywhere' it means whereever he/she see anything maybe assume 'God' in it or 'God existance' in it, that's why.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

existence of God is everywhere. We're told to refrain from idol worship. Idol is not necessarily statues we make but basically anything you consider God other than him alone. But then again, theres no place we can go where Allah is not there. When we raise our hands to pray, we pray knowing that where ever we pray, Allah will listen to us.

So where is Allah..? He's everywhere.. but you cannot start praying to humans/animals or any object. You pray to only God how He told us to pray. His presence everywhere is for us to fear doing anything wrong.

*6-59 : And there falls not a leaf but He knows it; nor is there a grain in the deep darkness of the earth, nor anything green or dry, but is recorded in a clear Book
*
He must be present everywhere to know when leaf falls etc. Hope you get what i mean..

Then some wise man once said :

Mandir dha de, masjid dha de, dha de jo kuch dhenda
Par kisi da dil na dhaavein, rab dilaaN vich rehnda.

So, like i said, his presence is everywhere. But that is not to say that we start idol worshiping.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace Sister

It is classed as a major misunderstanding of Islamic tawheed. By saying He is Everywhere without clarification - we compromise one of the groups:
Rabbubiya, Uloohiya or Al-Asma-Wa-Sifaat.

Now when looking at the whole set of Attributes we use interpretation to say that "wherever we look we see the Face of Allah" cannot be taken in the literal sense, because this causes complications, firstly with Pantheism and secondly with absurdities such as if there is a wrong doing or something debasing or horrible that cannot be taken as the seeing of "the Face of Allah" ... so we are forced to consider this phrase as "wherever we look we see the Signs of Allah"'s "Presence" - through the beauty and perfection of creation. We cannot "look" at the Divine you see ... our eyes can only see other forms of creation and we cannot possibly capture the sight of Allah wherever we look.

Also by taking a hard stance on the idea that Allah (SWT) is everywhere then we cannot say that Allah (SWT) is over the Arsh and likewise if we take a hard stance on the idea that Allah is over the Arsh we cannot reconcile the idea that wheresoever we look we see the Face of Allah ... Some people argue the "Face" should be taken literally and others argue not, yet others say let's not even think about whether the "Face" is to be taken literally or not.

The only reason why Mr.Popat is insisting that we say we believe that "Allah is everywhere" is so he can turn around and say that Isa (AS) could not have been "taken up" ... but this is his wishful thinking ... even if we said that "Allah is everywhere" it does not remove the meaning of Isa (AS) being taken up ...

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

When Allah says you see his face.. it is not referring to his literal face as he is of no shape. Face as you rightly said refers to Allah's signs. His presence is everywhere. His attributes such as Ar-rahman, Ar-raheem, Aziz,Hakeem etc are all the attributes we see in our daily lives. Therefore his face, or his signs are seen everywhere.

But then again, it's not just my wishful thinking but I guess many would like to get one straight answer to this. We have as i said 2 examples in which humans travelled 'towards' God. Now, one cannot say he's at one place somewhere in heaven, neither can one say that he is everywhere, given that we take into account these 2 events. You my friend need to answer in accordance to Quran and ahadith and reconcile it with your beliefs.

So, I guess in order to keep ur beliefs intact.. what you came up with is .. 'He is not everywhere, but hes not at one place either'. Nice.. carry on :)

All this aside, I dont think what i'm saying is against Islam. When I say he's everywhere , yes i do mean his signs are everywhere. Since he is al hakeem, azeem, baaqi, baseer, basit etc, I concluded that he is infact everywhere.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

mr popat

[QUOTE]
neither can one say that he is everywhere,
[/QUOTE]

youve been saying the opposite the whole thread?

if youve just been educated some public recognition is due

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Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?

jazakAllah for this, i must admit it is the first time i have come across those two terms you have mentioned. i watched the speech a few times but still needed the following conversation on this thread to understand

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Peace shardmanny

The studies that have gone into the formulations of 'aqeedah are very advanced thanks to the likes of Imam al-Ash'ari, Imam Maturidi and Imam At-Tahawi, Imam al-Ghazali, Imam Ibn 'Ataillah, et al ... It is because of their works that we are able to contend with modern fitaan, especially ones that pertain to the signs of the End Times. I hope this material has been refreshing for you rather than overly complex or frustrating. :)

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Those who say that Allah is everywhere, they leave the possibility that Allah is not present beyond everywhere or as we call it urdu "la makaan". Allah is not bound to time and place (such as 'everywhere'). We can not bind him just to 'everywhere'. We have to understand that the term 'everywhere' is our limitation in this world. He is beyond this limitation.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Yes. All im saying is you cant say he's everywhere either because He is at one place according to your beliefs..(given that you keep 2 events where humans traveled towards Allah). It was clever of you to take my one sentence out of what i said and use it against me. I've been sayin all along that He is infact everywhere and I still say the same.. I was saying how you cant say he's at one place(since that wont be islamic).., and neither can you say that he's everywhere (keeping in mind 2 instances).
Hope that helped.
ps: will reply to psyah after coming from work.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

Whoever is everywhere is God. When i say everywhere for god, i take everywhere to be infinite place. Where ever our 'everywhere' stops, even at the next level or point, there is God. On the other hand, we cannot say he is bound at one place, neither can we say theres any place anywhere where God presence is not there.

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Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?

ok so if i have understood you this time, it seems like you were mocking our beliefs?

what are your official beliefs, since you believe we have gone wrong and you believe a messiah was sent to you?