Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
as far as I know this is not written in the Holy Qur'an...
I will look after it....
ok, i will wait for you. however since its not in Quran and it indicates something major (pantheism) and it comes as a virtue (partnering god) for Isa Alaihis Salam (thus possibly an implied virtue for mirza when coming from your community) the door on likelyhood of providing neccessary proof is closing in on you
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Where is God? Quran says everywhere.
Muslim say from their tongue that he's everywhere. However, as you go deep into the beliefs of orthodox muslims.. we find that they believe God to be sitting in 2nd or 4th heaven (where ever Jesus a.s was taken up). In order to keep this belief alive, they say Muhammad pbuh was taken up bodily to heavens too where he saw God. The conclusion we come up with is : Yes ofcourse Quran says that where ever you direct yourself, you'll find me.. yes, muslims do believe not from their heart but from their tongue that he's everywhere.. but reality of belief is something totally different. He is only to be found in 2nd or 4th heaven.. and/or beyond a place after which Gabriel was not allowed to go.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Where is God? Quran says everywhere. Muslim say from their tongue that he's everywhere. However, as you go deep into the beliefs of orthodox muslims.. we find that they believe God to be sitting in 2nd or 4th heaven (where ever Jesus a.s was taken up). In order to keep this belief alive, they say Muhammad pbuh was taken up bodily to heavens too where he saw God. The conclusion we come up with is : Yes ofcourse Quran says that where ever you direct yourself, you'll find me.. yes, muslims do believe not from their heart but from their tongue that he's everywhere.. but reality of belief is something totally different. He is only to be found in 2nd or 4th heaven.. and/or beyond a place after which Gabriel was not allowed to go.
Words of a very confused individual .... Especially when he says "they" excluding himself from the Muslims ...
We do not say God is anywhere please read my post in this thread ...
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Words of a very confused individual .... Especially when he says "they" excluding himself from the Muslims ...
We do not say God is anywhere please read my post in this thread ...
My mind is as straight as it can be. I am not included in the muslims who hold these beliefs. It's as simple as that. With all due respect..If you have anything useful to reply to what i said above, please do or let someone else reply. Thank you.
ps: please direct me to your post which answers what i said. Thanks.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
My mind is as straight as it can be. I am not included in the muslims who hold these beliefs. It's as simple as that. With all due respect..If you have anything useful to reply to what i said above, please do or let someone else reply. Thank you.
ps: please direct me to your post which answers what i said. Thanks.
Well I'm a Muslim and none of what you said was fully coherent and I certainly don't believe in the parts that I think you were saying ... regarding everywhere or 4th heaven ...
Does the Qur'an say God is everywhere and then are someting like this is mentioned how are you going to interpret it with respect to other verses? Have you even studied the Ash'ari or Maturidi books of aqeedah rather than just talking about Muslims? And why is this going to be a Jesus (AS) issue? Is there anything that is not connected with this topic for you?
Bigboi ... now he is good lad ... you can learn a lot from him.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Well I'm a Muslim and none of what you said was fully coherent and I certainly don't believe in the parts that I think you were saying ... regarding everywhere or 4th heaven ... makes one think if allah is there alone.
Does the Qur'an say God is everywhere and then are someting like this is mentioned how are you going to interpret it with respect to other verses? Have you even studied the Ash'ari or Maturidi books of aqeedah rather than just talking about Muslims? And why is this going to be a Jesus (AS) issue? Is there anything that is not connected with this topic for you?
Bigboi ... now he is good lad ... you can learn a lot from him.
You will not believe in either God being everywhere or him being in 4th heaven. Why? because.. you know god says hes everywhere.. but at the same time you have to make room for the belief of Jesus a.s being taken up to God and hes there somewhere on 4th heaven.
I'm a believer and follower of Qur'an and quran says :
*2:115 : To Allah belong the East and the West; so withersoever you turn, there will be the face of Allah. Surely, Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing
50:16 And assuredly, We have created man and We know what his physical self whispers to him, and We are nearer to him than even his jugular vein
*
Then in another verse, Allah says that hes the noor of the heavens and the earth.
what is one single verse that contradicts the belief of Allah being everywhere?
What I said was quite simple to understand. I dont understand why you take whatever i say as an attack to your beliefs. Did i say something which you do not believe? I was simply pointing to you what your beliefs are.. if they're not your beliefs then please let me know where i'm wrong. I say it again.. orthodox muslims say that jesus a.s was taken up to 4th heaven. they also believe muhammad pbuh was taken to heaven and there was a literal point beyond which gabriel was not allowed to go. Muhammad pbuh passsed that sidra tul muntaha point and met God and saw prophets. What am i saying wrong here ? The conclusion that i'm arriving from these beliefs is this : 1) God is not everywhere. 2) God is beyond the point of sidra tul muntaha. 3) God is in 4th heaven. The question is to you. How do you reconcile the verses of Quran where on one side allah says hes everywhere, and on the other side according to your belief, he's on 4th heaven and/or beyond the point of sidra tul muntaha.
ps: i do not need to read ash'ari or Maturidi books. My beliefs are all from Quran. Muslim's beliefs are formed from Quran, ahadith and sunnah alone. I give those more importance than any other book. Thanks.
Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?
I was wrong and correct myself. It was Isa (as) speaking to people.
Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?
Peace Mr. Popat
I do not believe God is everywhere and I do not believe God is somewhere … I do however say that physical space cannot be used to define “where God is” - For us it is simply important to know “That He is” … otherwise we are forced to utilise tashbih in such terms - when it is said "Wherever you turn the Face of Allah will be there, is a metaphor for His Majesty through His Creation - it is about His Immanence … whereas when it is said “He is above the Throne” which it does say in the Qur’an … it is again interpreted to be how exclusive He is an unlike His Creation. This tension will always be there … as it is there for other aspects too … which are more about Him in terms of Tanvih.
The second link shows you all the references that can lead to the other conclusion … but we are people of the WHOLE QUR’AN and the WHOLE SUNNAH we don’t pick and choose and hence we are forced to make assessments when both types of seemingly paradoxial or conflicting concepts arise …
We believe that Allah (SWT) did “Istawa ala’Arsh” (Rose above the heavens) in a manner that suited Himself … which is unlike we would in any way rise to something.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Psyah,
I would love you to read "The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam" by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)...Have you heard the terms nafs-e-ammara, nafs-e-lawamma and nafse-mutmainna?
Who is it who accuses me when I commit a sin? Accuses me so much that I feel so bad! It comes from me inside. I have no doubt that this is God and this voice is in me accusing me, accusing me so badly. Am I thinking and reflecting too much :D? Would you say this is my conscience? Who made it, who resides there?
I would love to say one more thing. I have realized that we are all in fact one, Islam being the pinnacle so I can't go to a Jew, Christian and say that you are so and so. I have to hear what he/she is saying and then - with evidence - open the mouth and speak, in this case "let the fingers" work.
I have realized that this life is a journey. I have the opinion that I have to sit down and study Judaism, Christianity mainly so that I can decide "justly" (psyah: "he'll be a just ruler", does it click?). I have realized that we have to search for the similarites and we have alot of similarties which lead to Islam.
The Jews are not allowed to eat pork for example.
The Jews circumsise males like Muslims.
The Christians have the Story of God's command to Abraham (as) to sacrifice Ismael in their Bible.The difference is that instead of Ismael, Isaak was the one to be sacrificed before an Angel came and stopped Abraham (as).
The concept of division was never there and I think that it should be our goal to know each other and not despise each other. Let us combine all our Knowledge and do something good.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Removed
Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?
I’m sure it will benefit everyone who follows the link:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
So simple, but perfect. The beauty lies in the fact that every Speaker/Writer of the Thesis shall tell the World only what his Book teaches. **This Book in PDF-Format **shows only the beliefs of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) who I believe was the Promised Messiah (as)
The Topics are:
The physical, moral and spiritual state of man.
The state of man after death.
The object of man’s life and the means to it’s attainment.
The operation of the practical ordinances of the Law in this Life and the next.
Sources of Divine knowledge.
I think we should continue the discussion after you have read this PDF-File.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
[note]Thread reviewed as per Rules/Policy of R&S Fourm. Stick to the topic please[/note]
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Peace Mr. Popat,
I read what u wrote and ur posts are lower on weight b'coz there is no direct reference nor any solid point. Moreover u included topic of Jesus a.s. in this thread which I think is not related by any means with POV of this thread.
Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?
Allah is omnipresent. He is everywhere. No physical space can be used to define where he is. We alhamdulillah are peple of whole quran and whole sunnah too. In Allah’s book, we do not see any contradiction. Everything we find to be easy to understand. We alhamdulillah do not hold any beliefs, both knowingly and unknowingly which contradicts the very fundamentals of Islam, the Islam which is suppose to be believed. Good that you think the same about yourself too. Though, one cannot escape the fact that there are beliefs that you hold which challenges the attributes of Allah and him being omnipresent and Him being alone as a God. By tongue, you’re free to say whatever. It is your beliefs that define your aqaaid.. and let me tell you.. aqaaid should not and does not contradict.
PS: lethal kamikaze, very sorry to bring Jesus(as)'s issue in this topic. It was something that i just thought someone would think about. Anyhow, i’ll not bring it in if that can help the discussion to not go off topic. Thanks.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Allah is omnipresent. He is everywhere.
No physical space can be used to define where he is.
It is your beliefs that define your aqaaid.. and let me tell you.. aqaaid should not and does not contradict.
Peace Mr.Popat
If on one hand we say that no physical space confines God yet on the other we say He is everywhere - then we are confused ... Omnipresence is not the characteristic attributed to Allah (SWT) by the Islamic orthodoxy ... We say Allah (SWT) is Omnipotent and Omniscient and leave it there ... "Everywhere" means "all physical space" ... you see :) - Space is finite as well and that is not the way we view The Infinite ...
He surrounds and encapsulates, but He cannot be encapsulated.
The aqaid are formulated from scripture and opinion is utilised when "tensions" are experienced between references to help us understand the way to take certain references - i.e. literally or metaphorically - Do we take everything described about Allah (SWT) as a Siffat or not ... A Siffat has a certain quality too ... Why is it that we call Him "Most Merciful" rather than "The Merciful" - why do we call Him "Most Loving" rather than "The Love" ... ?
All of these references are present - but the understandings have had to be - finely tuned and callibrated ... By saying "Allah (SWT) is everywhere" as ignorant as we are who say this ... it disturbs that callibration.
I have a task for you - if you still insist Muslims from orthodoxy believe that "Allah (SWT) is in every place" cite a reference from a contemporary or past scholar who is known for his/her competency or has obtained ijaza in Islamic theology ... If you find one then I will adjust my claim and say - yes - truly I was the one who misunderstood the 'aqeedah ...
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Why has my post been deleted? I can't understand this. I can't accept this.
You have nothing to lose, but still play this game. I can understand people like Sharabee and Queer. It seems to me that I'm the only one. Sad.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
Why has my post been deleted? I can't understand this. I can't accept this.
You have nothing to lose, but still play this game. I can understand people like Sharabee and Queer. It seems to me that I'm the only one. Sad.
Strictly speaking our conversation about common ground was off topic ... so I deleted my post as well ...
Re: Where is the Only One ‘True God’?
WS,
I believe Allah is at one place called ‘Istawa’ - rising over the Throne encompasses His access, blessings and mercy over all of His creation. see the verses from Quran 20:5 and 25:59.
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
What about the verses
"If was not you who threw, but it was Allah who threw."?
"And when you swore allegiance to the Messenger of Allah placing your hands on his hands, verily you placed your hands on Allah's hands."?
Re: Where is the Only One 'True God'?
^Peace Bigboi and Peace FairysAngel
You see this is what I meant by "tensions" - A tension is not a contradiction, but a difficult apparent dichotomy to conceptualise ... It requires and mandates another way of thinking ...
On one hand we have "thumma-stawa 'ala al-Arsh" 25:59 and on the other hand "Fa aina ma tawallu fa thamma wajhullahi" 2:115
They can't both be taken from a human mindset - what we say is that "He established himself over the throne in a manner suited Him - i.e. unlike anything of creation are established over things ..." and "wherever we look we see His Face" to take the meaning other than anything that can be attributed to a face of a created being.
Further speculation results in asking whether He has "real" hands or not a "real" face or not ... Our assertion is whatever is revealed to us about Him, we take it in a way which is exclusive to Him and try our hardest not to draw any similarities with ourselves, although the words themselves are invoking similarity ...
It is for this reason why it is unanimously declared that we need to understand the two ends of the "tension" together ...
Transcendence and Immanence (Unity and Unified) (Ahad and Wahid) (Unlike anything - With Everything)
So to look at the two poles of this "tension" in unison we arrive at this conclusion:
He rose over the Arsh without bringing change to Himself without being locatable - so that it does not affect His Omnipotence or Omniscience
His Face can be seen in all directions without direction compelling or mediating that vision in a manner that allows His separation from His creation.