Where does religious tolerence ends...?

And what mindset is that exactly? These statues represent something that is against the fundamental teachings of islam. They may be considered to be historical/architectural treasures by some, but they are also representative of something that is not acceptable in islam. I don’t see how u can equate the statues with the pyramids, or ruins of an ancient civilization except in the former strain of thought. The pyramids are as you said, Rani, tombs of ancient kings, the Mayan ruins are the remains of an ancient civilization. They have no religious significance. And in that manner, you cannot reconcile the destruction of the buddha statues with a desire to destroy the pyramids, irradicate the Mayan ruins, etc..

Their is no need to rationalize the destruction of the buddha statues. The Taliban said they were going to destroy them and they have, and no one is hiding behind that fact.

I don’t think expressing disgust at the hypocrasy at the foreign policy of the US and its allies can be aligned with hate. But then again, that is your interpretation of the matter.

ps.The Hanging Gardens of Babylon are long gone

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif


We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
Sin: Osama Bin Junior

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited March 05, 2001).]

*The statues shouldnt have been destroyed...point noted. But what about humans? are they dispensable? they sure seem to be the way the popular thinking seems to be going around the world. And then, out of these two, whats your priority? Statues? If the taleban destroyed them, dont worry. Go make some more in your backyard. But can you say the same about parents who lose their kids? kids who lose their parents? all thanks to the 'humanitarian armies' around the world? Can u tell those kids to go in their backyards and make new parents? *

People and Statues are mutually exclusive they don't effect each other. By destroying one u cannot save other. Destroying staues only shows the vengeful mean nature of the regime.

Taliban has killed Shias and imposed harsh living conditions on women, they cannot work, can get on education cannot go out without a male relative and have to be heavily covered from face to toe, the windows of the house should be tainted so that nobody can see them. These people are inhuman. Most of the minorities in Afganistan have fled any remaining have to mark their houses. How would u feel if somebody asks u to mark your house because u are a minority.

If Taliban doesn't care about the world opinion and don't want to live by what rest of us considered civilized and want to do their own thing then World have every right to shun them.

Pakistan's continuous support of Taliban is responsible keeping them in power, without that support they would have toppled. If anything Pakistan is to blame for the condition Afganis find themselves today...they are helpless victims.

P.S. Their children will suffer even more in future, they will be brought up by uneducated mothers who are helpless victims, unable to impart necessary life skills to their children.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 05, 2001).]

Extreme situations require extreme measures!

[quote]
Originally posted by ammarr:
Extreme situations require extreme measures!
[/quote]

I guess locking up women is one of the extreme measure and next is breaking up status...wonder how that will help to solve the situation.

Pakistans interference and military support is keeping this rough regime in power. Pakistan is to blame for the mess Afganis find themselves.

Rani:

Taliban is already shunned by ‘civilised’ societies so I guess breaking these stones won’t make much difference.

Interestingly, ‘civilised’ socieites seem to have no problem dealing with mosque-demolishing Indians, possibly due to monetary considerations. But then a prostitute will always look at the colour of the money rather than the squalid state of the paying punter

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

look on the bright side. At least they won’t end up being killed as a result of being born a female. I believe this happens in some countries where there is a shortfall of over a million girls due to barbaric practice of female infanticide.

People and statues may be mutually exclusive, but your priorities regarding them dont seem to be. The underlying impression being passed around is that the taleban, afghanis and their kids are dispensable. The statues are not...and that sad thinking is whats the most appalling.

Your concept regarding women in Afghanistan is erroneous, and based on personal hatred for Islam, and blind following of the propaganda thats initiated in tabloid papers.
You may or may not want to believe it, but women in Afghanistan do study, do go to school, do work, and do go out for whats essential. And mind you, thats the attitude of Muslim women around the world. As far as hijab is concerned, I am sure you have seen muslim women covered from head to toe in the USA or Canada, or any other western country that you may have visited. They dont cover because someones pointing a gun to their head. They cover because they want to, and because it speaks of modesty and inner beauty, which is far more important in Islam than physical beauty.

If Taliban doesn't care about the world opinion and don't want to live by what rest of us considered civilized and want to do their own thing then World have every right to shun them.

Just because women wear skimpy outfits makes them civilized? Funny.
And yes, the taleban dont care about the world opinion. And yes, the world has the right to shun them, if the world wants to. The problem is, the world DOESNT want to. Its only a handful of selfishly motivated countries that want to do that, and have basically forced the entire world to do it alongside them by making the sanctions mandated via the UN.

I can guarantee you, if this was an individual decision, the US would be standing alongside UK in the sanctions department. So dont make it sound like the whole world is in it.

Pakistan has only helped Afghanistan. You can cast the blame on Pakistan as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is, your hatred is religiously motivated, and has nothing to do with the facts. The fact that both Afghanistan and Pakistan are Muslim countries, and that Pakistan has accepted the Taleban govt are more disturbing than anything else to the world.

P.S. Their children will suffer even more in future, they will be brought up by uneducated mothers who are helpless victims, unable to impart necessary life skills to their children.

Thats the same mantra that muslim haters of the world sang centuries ago when Islam initially emerged as the true way of life. And that was followed by the 'children of those same uneducated mothers who were helpless victims' growing up to be the most advanced in every scientific field. Perhaps you havent read Muslim history, or even world history. It will tell u a lot about many of the things that are being taught in schools today in the field of mathematics and science. These advancements were made by kids of supposedly uneducated mothers who wore veils and were good muslims, just like the women of taleban today.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 05, 2001).]**
[/QUOTE]

[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
** OOOH! an unprovoked attack, I like it.

Apparently in the hurry to put me down you forgot to read the rest of the message, which pointed out that these Structures are not just religious gems.
[/quote]
**
I have no idea what you mean by unprovoked attack,saying that a large part of your post was useless or irrelevant is hardly an attack.A mere observation.
I wasn't trying to put you down atall,merely trying to keep the discussion on track.Apparently in your hurry to attack me you forgot that you were posting in the religion forum on a thread about religious tolerance?That's why what you wrote in your 1st and later posts is irrelevant.
Now as for that long crap about cultural and heritage treasure,all I can say is that what to you is art is not so to the taliban.You are hardly in a position to say this is cultural treasure etc.If these statues are in Afghanistan then they are Afghani culture and if afghans want to destroy them,nobody can raise a finger.Because as I said earlier it may be culture to you but it isn't to taliban.To them it's nothing,pieces of stone with zero value.So the crap about culture gets you nowhere.
However the angle about religious tolerance is interesting and taliban can and should be expected to show tolerance on that point.As I said before I would not support their action if it was wrong on that scale.
But the question that arises there is that it is the budhists whose responsibility it is to raise that issue,but whay haven't they tried to engage that taliban in a dialogue about this issue?Perhaps because they don't recognize them?So as I said,their loss!
Ahmedjee,
street protests in nepal is hardly what I was talking about.And as for Japan,their statment in the link you provided goes on about 'human treasure' and nothing about budhism.
So please read the title of this thread again which is religios tolerance and that question is hardly applicable without any religious entity laying any claim.
You guys have no case if you go on about culture.Over the religious angle however we can talk,as I believe Islam believes in tolerance.

So your basic premise is that Afghanis can destroy these statues if there is no one in Afghanistan to complain about it. Your urgency to deflect the cultural angle shows your lack of it. Just like the lack of culture of the Taliban. We cannot separate religion from culture and history here. Because, that's what these are. They are religious, yet cultural, yet historical legacies of our past. The fact that no one living in afghanistan worships these, is irrelevant.

Even if we were to go with your logic, WHY NOW? Why not two years ago, or two centuries ago? That is what tolerance is all about. A black eye to islamic fundamentalism indeed!!

How does it effect you if the statue is destroyed or not??? Infoman and others???

Those kind of statues are against the Islamic teachings, and Islamic beliefs, do you have the ability to respect those beliefs - you care so much about the "buddist-can't-help-its-self-godlike-statue" whats stoping you from accepting the Islamic ordinance on this issue?


*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----


*And cover not *Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when you know (what it is).
**Quran,Al-Baqara, 42.

why then pakistan keeping its idol of bhudda
when pakistan
condeming the taliban act it mentiond"lord bhuddha"
where it says in quoran girls should not
go to school.

[quote]
Originally posted by The Watcher:
**How does it effect you if the statue is destroyed or not??? Infoman and others???

Those kind of statues are against the Islamic teachings, and Islamic beliefs, do you have the ability to respect those beliefs - you care so much about the "buddist-can't-help-its-self-godlike-statue" whats stoping you from accepting the Islamic ordinance on this issue?

**
[/quote]

Watcher, I thought we went over this? Anyway, a masjid is the house of allah, correct? If my religion said that god resides everywhere and confining it in one place is against my religion. Should I destroy it?

It affects me because this is against the virtues of basic human decency and regards for human historical, cultural and religious legacy.

[quote]
Originally posted by Akif:
**

Prioritize....key word.

**
[/quote]

same question here. Afghanistan is facing famine (even before sanctions) Average Afghan's life is becoming hell. What is priority of taliban? Use of rocket launchers and grenades and missiles to destroy Buddha statue and keep an internationally wanted criminal Osama in the country.

[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
So your basic premise is that Afghanis can destroy these statues if there is no one in Afghanistan to complain about it.
[/quote]

No mister that is not my premise.I am not talking about people in Afghanistan alone.I am talking about budhists all over the world.The wrold that is protesting has little justification to do so.This would be an internal Afghan matter unless budhists lay a cliam.That is what I am saying.
**

[quote]

Even if we were to go with your logic, WHY NOW? Why not two years ago, or two centuries ago? That is what tolerance is all about.**
[/quote]

What non-sense is this?Taliban weren't there 2 centuries ago and as for 2 years,that time frame man is nothing.Taliban are still a new government,still in the process of establishing themselves and Bamiyan has only just come under their control.Even Afghanistan as a whole is still not back to normal and in a state of continuous war and crisis.
"that is what tolerance is allabout" you say in the quote above.
Sorry I didn't get what you were saying here.What exactly are you saying tolerance is about again?

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited March 05, 2001).]

.

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited March 05, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
** Watcher, I thought we went over this? Anyway, a masjid is the house of allah, correct? If my religion said that god resides everywhere and confining it in one place is against my religion. Should I destroy it?

It affects me because this is against the virtues of basic human decency and regards for human historical, cultural and religious legacy.**
[/quote]

Who said God is confined to Masjid only? And who said God resides everywhere?

If my religion says that having statues and statues that were once considered a god is wrong and agaisnt the fundamental beliefs of Islam, why does that give you any problems?

Buddist are not crying over their God(that never was), why is everyone else having problem with it?


*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----


*And cover not *Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when you know (what it is).
**Quran,Al-Baqara, 42.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
** Average Afghan's life is becoming hell. What is priority of taliban? Use of rocket launchers and grenades and missiles to destroy Buddha statue and keep an internationally wanted criminal Osama in the country.**
[/quote]

Famine resulted from two things.
1) natural phenomenon, owing to the terrain of Afghanistan.
2) civil war against a foreign controlled regime

Noone can do anything about natural disasters. We are forced to live them out. However, the natural disaster has been magnified because of the inhumane sanctions. It amounts to firing a gun at a man who is already dying of cancer.

And regarding the civil war, thats a matter of sovereignty. Noone would sit back under such circumstances. If India were to have a foreign controlled government ruling it, you can bet indians would be fighting it off as well, despite hunger and famine.

And no more propaganda regarding Osama please. There is not a single shred of proof regarding Osama's involvement in any terror attacks. In the absence of any proof, he does not owe it to anyone to go to a third country, or the USA and prove himself innocent. Let the USA come up with some solid proof. Their obsession is not a proof. Its desperation.

By the way, if you insist on continuing this mantra against the taleban, I suggest you start the same against the Vishwa hindu prassad, who just yesterday burnt the Holy Quran in india, and chanted "Down with the Taliban. We will break Mecca and Medina,".

People and statues may be mutually exclusive, but your priorities regarding them dont seem to be. The underlying impression being passed around is that the taleban, afghanis and their kids are dispensable. The statues are not...and that sad thinking is whats the most appalling.

I am getting the underlying impression that u are happy that they have destroyed the Statues. This has nothing to do with Kids which u keep bring. Afganis should take care of their kids like all of us do...it is not world's responisibility to look after them or their kids.

Your concept regarding women in Afghanistan is erroneous, and based on personal hatred for Islam, and blind following of the propaganda thats initiated in tabloid papers.
You may or may not want to believe it, but women in Afghanistan do study, do go to school, do work, and do go out for whats essential. And mind you, thats the attitude of Muslim women around the world. As far as hijab is concerned, I am sure you have seen muslim women covered from head to toe in the USA or Canada, or any other western country that you may have visited. They dont cover because someones pointing a gun to their head. They cover because they want to, and because it speaks of modesty and inner beauty, which is far more important in Islam than physical beauty.

I guess you have no sympathy for women, whole world knows how badly they are treated in Afganistan. I have not seen anybody covered head to toe in North America. Covering is religious sactioned and implemented with great zeal...it is not left on an individual to decide. Women in Afganistan and in many other muslim countries will be stoned to death if they try to walk on the street in normal attire. Try walking around covered from head to toe for one day u will realize how punitive and hard it is.

Just because women wear skimpy outfits makes them civilized? Funny.

To respect other people's choice is civilized to impose your will on others is controlling and uncivilized. You seems to think everybody who is not covered from head to toe wears skimpy clothes. Most of us wear suitable clothes, just as men do and we don't need anybody to tell us how to dress up. Most women have enough common sense to do that they are not slaves.

**And yes, the taleban dont care about the world opinion. And yes, the world has the right to shun them, if the world wants to. The problem is, the world DOESNT want to. Its only a handful of selfishly motivated countries that want to do that, and have basically forced the entire world to do it alongside them by making the sanctions mandated via the UN.

I can guarantee you, if this was an individual decision, the US would be standing alongside UK in the sanctions department. So dont make it sound like the whole world is in it.**

All non-muslims world hates the way Taliban treats women, minorities and their own people. We don't want to legitimize that by dealing with them.

Pakistan has only helped Afghanistan. You can cast the blame on Pakistan as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is, your hatred is religiously motivated, and has nothing to do with the facts. The fact that both Afghanistan and Pakistan are Muslim countries, and that Pakistan has accepted the Taleban govt are more disturbing than anything else to the world.

Pakistan wants to take over Afganistan and keep it as a colony that is why it is forcing Taliban government on the people of Afganistan.

As for accusing me, most muslims hate non-muslims, read the posts on this forum regarding Hinduism, Indians and Americans etc. Every non-muslim is your enemy therefore should be hated. You have often stated that you will help muslim first and foremost, a great example of your equal treament and respect for others. Talk about double standards.

Thats the same mantra that muslim haters of the world sang centuries ago when Islam initially emerged as the true way of life. And that was followed by the 'children of those same uneducated mothers who were helpless victims' growing up to be the most advanced in every scientific field. Perhaps you havent read Muslim history, or even world history. It will tell u a lot about many of the things that are being taught in schools today in the field of mathematics and science. These advancements were made by kids of supposedly uneducated mothers who wore veils and were good muslims, just like the women of taleban today.

One just have to see where muslim countries are now...all that control of people and women and intense preoccupation with religion has sapped their energy, they have not produced any great scientist or thinker for centuries.

I think stop here as recent news I read which says, two third of the ancient relics hav been destroyed and rest are under way to thier “Injam”.

Like I said before,Taleban don’t care about anyone, they cover thier all acts whether right or wrong under the umbrella of Islam.Thats what is pathetic.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/cool.gif

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
Your concept regarding women in Afghanistan is erroneous, and based on personal hatred for Islam, and blind following of the propaganda thats initiated in tabloid papers.
You may or may not want to believe it, but women in Afghanistan do study, do go to school, do work, and do go out for whats essential. And mind you, thats the attitude of Muslim women around the world. As far as hijab is concerned, I am sure you have seen muslim women covered from head to toe in the USA or Canada, or any other western country that you may have visited. They dont cover because someones pointing a gun to their head. They cover because they want to, and because it speaks of modesty and inner beauty, which is far more important in Islam than physical beauty.

I guess you have no sympathy for women, whole world knows how badly they are treated in Afganistan. I have not seen anybody covered head to toe in North America. Covering is religious sactioned and implemented with great zeal...it is not left on an individual to decide. Women in Afganistan and in many other muslim countries will be stoned to death if they try to walk on the street in normal attire. Try walking around covered from head to toe for one day u will realize how punitive and hard it is.

Just because women wear skimpy outfits makes them civilized? Funny.

To respect other people's choice is civilized to impose your will on others is controlling and uncivilized. You seems to think everybody who is not covered from head to toe wears skimpy clothes. Most of us wear suitable clothes, just as men do and we don't need anybody to tell us how to dress up. Most women have enough common sense to do that they are not slaves.

[/quote]

This argument holds little, if any weight. The moment you stop on a traffic signal, you give up the so-called 'freedom'. The laws and rules are enforced in ALL COUNTRIES, not just in Afghanistan.

You won't find women running naked in USA, because public nudity is not allowed. Does that infringe on the women's rights to do as they please? Every country, including USA, have their own different set of morality. Maybe Europe is more liberal than US. Maybe Denmark is more liberal than UK. Its all a matter of how people in a country wants to make rules for public morality. No country, as far as I know, is free-for-all, do-as-you-please.

The appropriate attire for women and men in Islam is subscribed since the day Islam took shape. It hasn't changed and will not change because it is the command of Allah. You or me agreeing or disagreeing with it will not make an iota of difference in changing this dress code. Muslims care more for the command and word of Allah, than the presumed rights of individuals.

And for your information, the same dress code is equally and as harshly applied in Saudi Arabia and many other middle-eastern and muslim communities. Just because their kings and royals lick the boots of their US masters, makes it ok for Saudis and abhorent for Talibaan. This is a sham.

The day Talibaan hand over Osama, all their sins will be forgiven. The world media will become sympathetic and their women will over-night be living lives of equality with men. This whole media bias, which has corrupted your mind about the conditions in Afghanistan is all because of one country's obsession about finding a scapegoat for its foreign policy blunders, and blinded zeal for becoming omni-potent in the world. Thats all!