Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Are you a student or professor of Semitic languages?

82

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


I can tell you that I am not the latter

83

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


During first world war, thousands of Turkish people moved to US, 3rd/4th generations have some memories of their grand-fathers praying like Muslims but they didn't know if they (grand-parents were "Muslims").... get the drift?

84

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


interesting point, however, the argument from the other side was that the tribe of the prophet knew Abraham and somewhat practiced his ways. Taking that further, if the jews and christians had forgotten the legacy of circumambulating cubes, then why would they be called people of the "scripture" while the Arab pagans are not considered that? Did Abraham not receive a "scripture"?

85

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

I am not too sure about that i.e. fore-fathers of Prophet PBUH knowing who Abraham AS was and what his 'preaching' was, may be I am forgetting that part of history :D

86

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


brother I had to add the missing part of my post... please read it again for what I intended to say. sorry for the confucion.

87

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Jews and Christians are called "People of scripture" because they were direct recepient of message from their respective messenger (Moses and Essa /Jesus) and were given "book" (scripture). Pagans at large were not following "book" and had idols as 'intermediary' or 'God'.

88

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


How is that possible? Even today Abraham barely gets his name capitalized instead of being known as Prophet with a distinguished capitalized acronymn that follows the devine designation. Poor Abraham, the original, yet forgotten prophet.

89

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka’bah come from?

This is best you way you can counter the argument with? :stuck_out_tongue: … corrected my post :wave:

90

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Depends on what the 'argument' is. If it's the importance of one message and messenger over all others? Yes.

It was apparently enough to get you to change your post but not enough to change the fact theat there is but one *Prophet *with special designation and a bunch of others that are known by name and non-exclusive acronym.

So no, probably not the best. But then again the post I addressed wasn't exactly the epitome of a debate-winning homerun.

91

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


that's a VERY weak argument brother...

92

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

I didn't suggest that either, but I expect grown up people to point to the material rather than ',' or '.' etc.

93

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

When I said they were given "book" it didn't simply mean they had a book at home to 'recite' rather a code of life which they stuck to their abilities which is not true in case of pagans who had their own rituals/celebrations/ways etc.

94

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


Good, so you agree with my point of view that they did not practice Abrahimic 'rituals' (if there ever were any).

Aaj Kiss Baat Par Gussa Aaya ??????
95

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Salam h2k,

Correct me if a i am wrong my perception is they associated these rituals to Abraham though these rituals were not performed by Abraham.

Its the same with many muslims they associate so many incidents and sayings of the Prophet though this was neither performed by Prophet nor passed any such comment.

Correct me if i am wrong, and please do provide me references as i can use them in the future.

What do u do when..
96

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

good question, and I have a referenceless answer for you... You are agreeing with my point either way by saying "these rituals were not performed by Abraham".

That is more important to me since that is what I call an invented pagan practice.

And if it is a pagan practice then it must have something to do with a reintroduction of these rituals after prophet Muhammad's death. That further elaborates that the Hajj is not for pagan practices, but for something else and the answer is in the Quran.

regards,

97

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Salam h2k
Just one more point brother one more point to agree upon,

That pagans accepted there religion of the Abraham leave alone what they practiced might not be in perfect correspondence with Abraham rituals my point is the pagans did say they followed the Religion of Abraham.

Thanks,

98

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


That brother constitutes a theory... we know exactly what they practiced.

Epiphinius of Salamis was a pre-Islamic clergyman (4th century) who had written about festivals of the Arabs and marks a certain birth ritual of spinning sevens times around crude hand cut blocks at the time of Winter Solstice...

Furthermore, let's go down to the era after the prophet's death... let us look at a manuscript from Yahya bin Mansoor (mid 600s)

"These, then, were idolators and worshippers of the morning (dhu al Shara) star and Aphrodite (Allat) whom in fact they called Chabar/Kabar in their own language, which means "great." So until the times of Heraclius they were plain idolators. From that time till now a false prophet appeared among them, surnamed Muhammad (Mamed), who, having happened upon the Old and the New Testament and apparently having conversed, in like manner, with an Arian monk, put together his own heresy. And after ingratiating himself with the people by a pretence of piety, he spread rumours of a scripture (graphe) brought down to him from heaven. So, having drafted some ludicrous doctrines in his book, he handed over to them this form of worship (to sebas)."

And

"They misrepresent us as idolaters because we prostrate ourselves before the cross, which they loathe. And we say to them: "How then do you rub yourselves on a stone at your Ka'ba (Chabatha) and hail the stone with fond kisses?" . . . This, then, which they call "stone," (Hajr) is the head of Aphrodite, whom they used to worship and whom they call Chabar/Kabar."

Wouldn't you think there would have been even a slightest mention of Abraham here if indeed you are correct?

99

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Salam h2k,
Then bro again its the case of either you are right or I am wrong, my set of sources are definitely different, since both of us dont know where we are heading i suppose a third person should actually come over and try to tell either of us who is right or wrong.
Next i will just quote from my set of sources, as of now i am there in the office so dont have enough time.
Next suppose if i have to even say your sources are right problem is this is just one part of a huge collection i should say.
Regards,

100

Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

no kidding... so in the end, if you are able to rationalize that the current hajj practice as something God would ordain, then that's good for you. I for one cannot since I see the pieces fit in a different way...