Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
^Salam bro,
I thought we were discussing on different lines where the heck the hajj thing prop up for. Chalo will catch you after sometime if and only if you are interested to talk about the Abrahamic part of it.
Well bro cool down, its just discussion no one is winning or losing.
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
^Salam bro,
I thought we were discussing on different lines where the heck the hajj thing prop up for. Chalo will catch you after sometime if and only if you are interested to talk about the Abrahamic part of it.
brother, haven't we been discussing the ka'ba(t) and the black stone? Have't people tried to compare the Hajj of Abraham to what goes on today at the ka'bah? That is what I am saying. My understanding of the Hajj is different in that it is not for rituals (derived from pagan pratices) but for a much more noble cause.
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
You know what I am discussing about andyou have been answering to it promptly.
I am discussing that the pagans used to attribute there rituals, associate there rituals to Abraham.
I never spoke about hajj, how abraham performed hajj.
Its much like they are so many hadiths today and are attributed as part of Islam though in no way it comes to the fold of islam. But still a set of believe its the Islam way.
I am still shocked forget about the thread were were discussing on different lines.
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
You know what I am discussing about andyou have been answering to it promptly.
I am discussing that the pagans used to attribute there rituals, associate there rituals to Abraham.
I never spoke about hajj, how abraham performed hajj.
Its much like they are so many hadiths today and are attributed as part of Islam though in no way it comes to the fold of islam. But still a set of believe its the Islam way.
I am still shocked forget about the thread were were discussing on different lines.
I think I am catching on now... my stance is that in preIslamic times they never attributed any such rituals to Abraham. The Hajj of Abraham started to get attributed to these practices in the postIslamic era... consider it a mud-plaster on top of the Quranic message to keep pagan practices alive.
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
Good, so you agree with my point of view that they did not practice Abrahimic 'rituals' (if there ever were any).
If you are referring to the pagans in Prophet Mohammed PBUH's time then yes all the rituals they were carrying out were not Abrahamic, some of them had Abrahamic roots where they added more to "get more", things like carrying idol with them during the circuambulation etc.
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
If you are referring to the pagans in Prophet Mohammed PBUH's time then yes all the rituals they were carrying out were not Abrahamic, some of them had Abrahamic roots where they added more to "get more", things like carrying idol with them during the circuambulation etc.
then read my later posts and then answer...
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
That brother constitutes a theory... we know exactly what they practiced.
Epiphinius of Salamis was a pre-Islamic clergyman (4th century) who had written about festivals of the Arabs and marks a certain birth ritual of spinning sevens times around crude hand cut blocks at the time of Winter Solstice...
Furthermore, let's go down to the era after the prophet's death... let us look at a manuscript from Yahya bin Mansoor (mid 600s)
What did these guys know about Judaism, Christianity, common between two and validity of some of those issues in Quran?
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
I guess the bold part sums it up...
I do not think there are any rituals divinely prescribed.
For the second part, I think even pagans can use the same argument.
Anyone can use the same argument, because the precise point is that one should walk away with the experience understanding that ritual is all nonsense, and that the same action can have different meanings for different people. You walk away with that flexibility when you see groups from all over the world doing Hajj or Umrah in slightly different ways.
It makes no difference. In the end, its about the iman in your heart, and Umrah and Hajj give you some time to explore that. Given that there's nothing else in the city to do other than pray, and plug up your arteries by eating Halaal KFC and Burger King.
Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?
Anyone can use the same argument, because the precise point is that one should walk away with the experience understanding that ritual is all nonsense, and that the same action can have different meanings for different people. You walk away with that flexibility when you see groups from all over the world doing Hajj or Umrah in slightly different ways.
It makes no difference. In the end, its about the iman in your heart, and Umrah and Hajj give you some time to explore that. Given that there's nothing else in the city to do other than pray, and plug up your arteries by eating Halaal KFC and Burger King.
Yes it is about Iman in your heart.